"Why am I me?" and "Seeing isn't seeing."

I'm hoping this idea will spark some discussion as well as draw some insight from anyone who has already thought about this. "Why am I me?"

I'll try to explain what I mean as best I can. Basically, our bodies are formed as cells multiply in the womb. Eventually we are born, and at some point in this process our "consciousness" appears. So if your "consciousness" your "soul", the "observer" is you, then what determines which body it is "attached" to?

Think of it like this: see all the people around you. Thousands of people are born every day. Why are you not seeing the world through their eyes right now? Of all the births, what determines that the vessel you are in right now would be the one through which you experience life?

This "assignment" to a body, separate from others...This ability to observe and experience from the point of view of one individual has no satisfactory explanation (as far as I'm aware) scientifically, religiously, metaphysically, etc.

I hope this makes sense. Any input?

Also, I was considering the idea of "seeing" and how we don't really "see" the way we we seem to. It's eerie, when you really break down that all you are seeing is the light bouncing back from an object. The light you are "seeing" is literally interacting within your eyeball, so even what you "see" in the "far off distance" is happening right on your eye, as close to you as anything can really get!

When you show a picture of someone and say "Do you know this person? This is what they look like.", what you are really saying is "Do you know this person? This is how light particles behave in the presence of the vessel to which their consciousness is connected."

Hopefully this is thought provoking!

Well, most brooms don't have self consciousness, but this one does. In fact it remembers the very first cognitive thought. At three years of age, recording an audio message on a cassette for an aunt. For some reason the broom thought, "I am me, and I am alive." It was quite an experience.

It is a true mystery. All I can say with any certainty about the matter is that self consciousness is a gift from God.

Out of all the bodies your soul could have went. Just was your turn in queue!

I also wonder if a soul can be masculine or feminine?

I know for sure it can be Positive or Negative, Energy has these states. Especially electrical energy!

AbleEndangered
Out of all the bodies your soul could have went. Just was your turn in queue!

I also wonder if a soul can be masculine or feminine?

I know for sure it can be Positive or Negative, Energy has these states. Especially electrical energy!

I would think souls are neutral gender, and that gender identity happens in the brain. Just my view though! I think too that we can control the level of positive vs. negative energy.

With sense experience thought is formed, identifying consciousness with mind and these thoughts that give rise to feeling from attachments gives rise to the ego "you" that you identify with. The consciousness at some point starts chasing thought, following whever it goes, watching being lead around by desire and attachment to sensations, and other thought forms mistaking all it's journeys as a self. To take it all back, train the mind to obey consciousness and stay where consciousness places it, do not let the consciousness awareness chase or be led off by the mind, this eventually uncovers the real "you".

Broom
Well, most brooms don't have self consciousness, but this one does. In fact it remembers the very first cognitive thought. At three years of age, recording an audio message on a cassette for an aunt. For some reason the broom thought, "I am me, and I am alive." It was quite an experience.

It is a true mystery. All I can say with any certainty about the matter is that self consciousness is a gift from God.

Since recallable memory doesn't tend to happen until around that age (3 years old), could this mean that the "soul" is not "connected" to the body until then? Or maybe it's connected, but until that age, the soul can only observe and the brain is in complete control. Or maybe...it's the other way around? As our brain forms connections, the soul loses control, which is why we see children as the purest/truest form of self expression?

BigBrotherDarkness
With sense experience thought is formed, identifying consciousness with mind and these thoughts that give rise to feeling from attachments gives rise to the ego "you" that you identify with. The consciousness at some point starts chasing thought, following whever it goes, watching being lead around by desire and attachment to sensations, and other thought forms mistaking all it's journeys as a self. To take it all back, train the mind to obey consciousness and stay where consciousness places it, do not let the consciousness awareness chase or be led off by the mind, this eventually uncovers the real "you".

This makes me think, if you were born as a brain in a jar and never had ANY sensory input, would you still be self aware at any point? Would this mean automatically staying in touch with the "real you", or would this mean the "real you" would...never exist?

If consciousness is separate from sensory experience, you shouldn't need outside input right? But if you need outside sensory reception in order to have consciousness...then does this mean consciousness forms from experience? But if you put a thermometer in water, it "senses" the temperature, but doesn't achieve consciousness.

I'm confusing myself.

Consciousness is awareness of self. The soul is awareness of consciousness.

xizd1
Consciousness is awareness of self. The soul is awareness of consciousness.

Then what is awareness of the soul?

reply to post by AlliumIslelily

So if your "consciousness" your "soul", the "observer" is you, then what determines which body it is "attached" to?

I'm sure you expected this at some point but I will give you the reincarnation perspective or rather my perspective on reincarnation.

You determine the body that your soul is attached to, before you become attached to it. This choice is determined based on the lessons that you want to learn and/or teach. The body that you are going to inhabit, the parents that you have, the time period, and the geographic location are all factors that can determine the life that you will live and you make a decision which one, out of all the billions in the world, fits what you need to experience most precisely.

As I've already stated, we are here to learn and/or teach and we are given exactly what we need to be able to learn or teach that which needs to be learned or taught. The lives we live are not perfect omniscient nirvana-esque lives because if they were, we wouldn't learn and grow as a soul, at least not in the ways that we need the most. There may very well be a life that we will one day live that will be that perfect life of nirvana, but we are not yet at a point where that is what is best.

Awareness of soul is a different perspective, like seeing a car drive by and being in that car.

reply to post by AlliumIslelily


Would there still be a mind or self without the senses and just pure consciousness if it were simply a brain in a jar? This is what you are asking?

If there was no sight the consciousness wouldn't know it was in a jar... so no need for that part of the brain for sight, so we will just cut that out... the same could be said for sound, smell, taste and touch, no need for the spinal cord senor of the brain hanging out down there either called the medulla, nor the cerebellum for movement. So what use is a brain in a jar for consciousness? When no part of the brain is required after cutting out all non essential parts for being in the jar... unless, you have a body or the brain is thought to be the seat of consciousness? If the consciousness resides in the brain where might its seat be?

At the end of this conudrum, there are two options depending on belief. One consciousness dies with the body, or the other... it transmigrates and attaches to another form.

In other words: A body requires conscious awareness to be animate... but does conscious awareness require a body?

Sure isolated brains of a sort have been grown and given an artifical body or specific function... are those aware though? The concept of ghost in the shell arises, but as current tech goes to my knowledge no signal of communication of awareness from islated brains have yet arisen... but I do not think it out of the realm of possibility. It would require the ability to sense and precieve beyond just carrying out a routine function, to display consciousness and the ability to communicate to another that it is aware... would this be an artifical intelligence or and actual conscious intelligence? Hopefully, when diving into such research we tread lightly in case it is indeed a consciousness bearing sentient life that we are not creating any suffering to it.

Considering plant studies, showing an awareness of sorts is present... are we blindly destroying a conscious sentient life... simply because we have no means to really communicate with them word for word to see if a thinking/feeling/rational consciousness is present? Not to mention the more recent discovery of the possibility of crystaline life. Obviously conscious sentient life such as animals are among us, if they are all self aware, have feelings of some moral structure is an answer many don't want to know... cause mmm bacon.

Perhaps we are just like ignorant cave persons blissfully ignorant, to the amount of damage we may be doing as far as conscious self aware life actually goes, the feelings of superiority humans have over everything else existant... is a strong justification for only respecting human life, and that seems to be on a case by case basis as it is... of course some life we would never listen to anyway, such as the flu virus demanding an end to vaccines with little picket signs demanding equal rights to life. This begs the question... does humanity really want to know how far conscious awareness dives... especially if it might possibly be at the cost of their own conscience?

If one thinks consciousness dies with the body, then so much atrocity is or could be taking place, if consciousness seeks another form after the body then it doesn't seem like that big a deal... "whining about one body and one lifetime of experiences... whats wrong with you you've had millions of them, and will have millions more... just let go and keep on keeping on."

If you asked for the rabbit hole Alice... you found it. Rod Serling should be along shortly.

reply to post by AlliumIslelily

So if your "consciousness" your "soul", the "observer" is you, then what determines which body it is "attached" to?

The body creates your consciousness. This can easily be seen by the fact that consciousness changes with the body. Without the body, there is no consciousness.

There is no need to imagine souls in a queue waiting for a body.

NiNjABackflip

The body creates your consciousness. This can easily be seen by the fact that consciousness changes with the body. Without the body, there is no consciousness.

There is no need to imagine souls in a queue waiting for a body.

edit on 2-10-2013 by NiNjABackflip because: (no reason given)

Ya, since the body creates consciousness better get a shot gun instead... 'cause zombies.

Just poking a little fun Ninja; consciousness is just an awareness, it's time is usually spent watching and reacting to the mind and it's running dialog about what is occurring, this is what appears to change and be part of the body and caused by the body... but consciousness and mind are two different things that form reason(discriminating / discursive thought). There's pure awareness(consciousness) and there's internal commentary that arises from this awareness(mind) due to the experience of having a body that together forms reason.

There is pure consciousness, that is unformed and not sentient many call this god, some others call it the All whatever anyone wants to call it, is irrelevant to the current situation we all face(having form), identifying the form and the mind that arises from taking a form as a self, is whats blatantly relevant to the situation, consciousness having taken form, now has experience then the mind arises out of this experience, and forms an ego self covering up the pure awareness of just being. You can just be, and abide in pure conscious awareness, with out a running dialogue or commentary about what is being experienced... this is the same pure conscious awareness infants have, before mentation starts forming a discursive thought based in and around experiences of having a body.

Calling the consciousness that animates a form a soul, means it is separate from all other pure consciousness when not in a form and not one whole. The idea of a soul, is an ego projection of a self, not a unity of all pervading consciousness of space.

Believing it, denying it or experiencing it, does not change the situation... pure consciousness has taken a form, that's the important part of the situation, haven taken form what is to be done with it? What are you doing with it? What am I doing with it? Does matter matter, does mind mind? No matter never mind.

reply to post by xizd1

xizd1
Awareness of soul is a different perspective, like seeing a car drive by and being in that car.

Woe, that is deep!!


reply to post by NiNjABackflip


You never heard of the Cusp? and how souls don't want to incarnate on Earth anymore?


reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


And that dwelves deeper....

I point to the Singularity! The Quantum Event Horizon!! The Universal Womb!!!

AbleEndangered
Out of all the bodies your soul could have went. Just was your turn in queue!

I would disagree that that is necessarily so. Perhaps it CAN be true for some people, but to say its for all people, would probably not be accurate.

AbleEndangered

I also wonder if a soul can be masculine or feminine?

A spirit is what it is. It is infinite potential and extant eternal, with seemingly paradoxical attributes that will boggle the logical mind to no end.

The spirit isnt feminine or masculine, it just is what it is. If a spirit chooses to manifest in a certain way that might be labelled feminine or masculine, that labeling is for the convenience of the labeller. The labels applied by the logical mind that cannot perceive the spirits true nature are NOT signifiers of aspect; they are simply boxes that the logical mind puts things into in a need to keep things ordered and finite.

The body creates the cells needed to form the spirit. But at the same time we are all alone in our own version of 'the' universe in our own brains and everybody we see is a copy of the original. The "you" which is contained within a few of one's braincells is not the same as the cells which produces the 'you' you are talking to, it is merely a projection made by imagination, all the impressions one sees (and/or expressions made by that other body) and visible by sunlight bouncing off. When you believe you sense the presence of another, it is just a few braincells adding to the experiencemake the illusion even more real.

The eyeball is just one part of seeing, there is also the primary visual neocortex where signals translated by the eyes are further translated or reassembled in such a way it produces the experience of seeing. I'm not sure but I believe the processing of others happens in the mirror neurons amongst other parts, I'm sure memory is always involved as well.

reply to post by AlliumIslelily


Well, I have been paying a lot of attention to Bruce Lipton recently, (not sure how he is percieved on ATS), and he makes some very interesting observations, based on studies he performed in the late 60's. In essence, he says that the proteins manufactured by your DNA are what ultimately give us consiousness, governed by the signals our body recieves to switch them on and off, causing movement etc. He reckons the skin is actually the brain, because it is the cell membrane which is receptive to these signals turning proteins on and off when needed. I hope I got that right.
Long winded way in saying that it is protein manufacture via your DNA which give us consciousness and determine our actions, although our genes do not determine who we are, as they are proven to react to environmental stimuli as oppose to being pre-written programmes.
(Takes a breath and gets ready to be hammered)