Pope Francis Tosses Out Vatican Constitution. Rewrite Going On Oct 1-3

A new membership drive has begun.

The Catholic Church is a business at the end of the day. Currently as a business they are losing market share. Just the cost to pay legal bills must be significant.

reply to post by tadaman


I figure this could go one of three ways ...
- He makes reforms which take the corrupt mobster like Cardinals out of power. So it's good.
- He makes changes which will make the church protestant. So it's bad.
- He tries to make changes, but fails. So nothing changes.

well can someone list off some things in the old constitution that may be of interest and possibly changed?

I mean all this debate over the constitution not being related to the creed. its confusing and really leave nothing to discuss

For those who think this is just another 'rewrite' ....

Vatican Insider

Fr. Lombardi spoke of a “complete overhaul in the organisation of the Curia” in his briefing with journalists today: the Secretariat of State becomes the papal Secretariat

The Holy See waves goodbye to the Apostolic Constitution “Pastor Bonus” which regulates the way the Curia works. The Constitution is soon to be replaced by a new “Charter”. In today’s briefing with journalists, Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi announced that the work of the “C8”, Francis’ eight-member group of cardinal advisors, would not involve “amendments or minor changes” but a “complete overhaul of the organisation of the Curia”. All the necessary amount of time needed for this process will be taken but the outcome has already been decided: the Pastor Bonus will be replaced by a “newly configured Constitution that will be include relevant points” and will be inspired on the principle of subsidiarity. The result will be a Curia that serves local Churches.

More information at the link

My guess is he's very smart. He knows people are leaving the church in droves, and not picking up new (younger) members:

theweek.com...

He showing flexibility and acknowledges the fact the current year is 2013, not 8th century AD. I give him credit. I still think organized religion will continue it's long overdue downward spiral towards extinction regardless.

FlyersFan

Garabandal doesn't need to come into the conversation. The Church disapproved of it 3 times.

Your statement is misleading. The actual determination was non constat. It seems like you want to have me believe that it has been condemned. As far as I am aware, there has never been an official position on Garabandal given by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Seems natural enough, they are just playing it safe and waiting to see how things pan out before issuing a judgement. The bottom line is, you are permitted to believe or disbelieve, as you see fit.

And if it is confirmation by a saint that you are looking for, consider the affirmation of Garabandal given by Saint Padre Pio, according to Joey Lomangino.

Peace be with you.

Because some people think that Pope Francis may be the pope of prophecy because he may be making the church 'appear dead' through the actions we are discussing on this thread ... and some think that his actions are tied into Garbandal ... I'll answer this post. It is semi-on topic.

Spectral Norm

FlyersFan
Garabandal doesn't need to come into the conversation. The Church disapproved of it 3 times.

there has never been an official position on Garabandal given by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Determination doesn't have to come from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It only has to come from the local Bishop. (such as in Betania, it was approved by the local Bishop) The statement of approval or disapproval from the Bishop stands with Rome unless Rome says otherwise (like Medjugorje). Click here for more information and take note of Canon Law 753
ATS Thread - Quick Guide to False Apparitions and False Seers
Original Document Stating it is Not Supernatural
English Translation of the Document and other information
Apparitions and Discernment

Canon Law and the Obligation of Obedience by the Faithful

As the bishops are entrusted with the responsibilities of discerning and ruling on apparitions as stemming from the nature of their office, so there are fundamental responsibilities on the part of the members of the diocese. First, they are to obey their bishops when the latter act as Christ's representatives (canon 212), that is, when they teach formally or establish binding discipline as pastors of a particular church. This obedience owed to the bishops in their capacity as leaders of particular churches is intended to promote the common good. Canon 753 also speaks of the "religious assent" owed to the bishops' teaching authority, which means a special quality of respect and gratitude, along with critical awareness and good will. Hence, there should be intelligent obedience to ecclesiastical authority in the matter of alleged apparitions.

And if it is confirmation by a saint that you are looking for, consider the affirmation of Garabandal given by Saint Padre Pio, according to Joey Lomangino.

According to the Padre Pio center in Barto PA ... The RUMOR that Padre Pio confirmed Garabandal is wrong. And even if Padre Pio did .. (which he did not) .. he doesn't overshadow what the Church itself has stated.


So that being said ... Garbandal has nothing to do with what this pope is doing now and what we are discussing in this thread.

reply to post by FlyersFan


This may be the man whom could bring me back to catholocism and create peace with the orthodoxy, every action he is taking so far I agree with, like a person the church had to fall in order for christ to save it and this man may very well be his servant in doing this.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Once again, the ruling of the Bishop of Santander was non constat. This means he thought that it could not be confirmed from the existing evidence that the apparitions were of supernatural origin. That is not the same thing as a denial that they were of supernatural origin, no matter how much you would like it to be one.

And that is what the original document you linked said, although the purported "translation" took liberties with it. The point is, there has been no condemnation by the Holy Mother Church of the Garabandal apparitions to date. That is because there is nothing to condemn. There is nothing in the messages contrary to dogma or doctrine. It is not a sin if I believe they are authentic, nor is it a sin if you do not.

Also, you may believe that Mr. Lomangino is a liar if you wish. What you can't do, at least not with any legitimacy, is make the claim that the official position of the Church is that Mr. Lomangino is a liar.

Peace be with you.

reply to post by eggman90


The church has been losing membership in droves SINCE the second Vatican council.

When an organization changes its fundamental views and stances it dies off. This has been proven time and time again.

There is no point in being catholic if you want a "modern / newage belief system"
There are plenty already...and "better" .

If you wanted a catholic experience .....then your out of luck....we don't do that anymore..

He is a tool.

A priest from an excommunicated order....designing the future of the catholic church.....What do you think will happen with traditional Catholics? Think they will stay? You REALLY think young people are going to join a failed religion?

Who cares what young people think anyways.....by the time they knkw what the hell they are talking about they will have changed all their views a thousand times over.....they should get NO SAY in matters of thousand year tradition and heritage ...what is one generation compared to them all.

Can you imagine the Jewish faith if it had rewritten itself for every generation that came and went? It woukdnt exist...

That is where the current Catholic church will find itself by abandoning its fundamental views....Gone...and that is the point really.

tadaman
reply to post by eggman90

 

The church has been losing membership in droves SINCE the second Vatican council.

Really?

Total church membership in 2011 (remaining steady at 17.5% of the world population) was 1,214 million people, having increased from 437 million in 1950 and 654 million in 1970. (Source)

How is an almost doubling of membership in the last 40 years "losing membership in droves"?

A priest from an excommunicated order...

When were the Jesuits excommunicated? They were dissolved in the 1700s, but restored shortly thereafter, and never excommunicated.

Let's start getting some basic facts correct before we move on to any theories of what the future will hold.

Spectral Norm
The point is, there has been no condemnation by the Holy Mother Church of the Garabandal apparitions to date.

Dude ... the church has said three times .. not supernatural. Deal with it.
The Bishop has FULL AUTHORITY to make the decision. And the Bishop has. Three times.
Common sense .. it's not from heaven.

It is not a sin if I believe they are authentic, nor is it a sin if you do not.

I didn't say it was a sin.

Also, you may believe that Mr. Lomangino is a liar if you wish.

Joey Lomangino has been taken for a ride. The poor man was told he'd get his eyesight back. Never happened. He's now extremely old and suffering from dementia. He was lied to. Obviously if he thinks Padre Pio said Garabandal was authentic .. then either Lomangino got it wrong, or Padre Pio got it wrong, or both got it wrong. The Padre Pio center says Padre Pio did NOT say Garabandal was authentic. And even if he had ... again, it wouldn't supersede the Bishop or his authority in this matter.

So again ... there is nothing that Garbandal could possibly say that has anything to do with this pope or what he is doing with the Church. Nothing at Garabandal is authentic prophecy and therefore, it's irrelevant to the happenings in the church today.

Now instead of you trying to push a fake apparition that the church has already debunked, how about we discuss the changes to the church that the Pope is calling on to happen. THAT is the topic of this thread.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Gee whiz. Could you be a little more hostile? I am sorry I mentioned it.

Peace be with you.

It's my first post and I want to say hello to everyone in the ATS community. I just wanted to add to the whole prophecy thing, though I really doubt their validity the St. Malachy prophecies are muddy at best, though they really have nailed it pretty nice and close, I think it's always healthy to analyze things beyond their face value as to not get caught with our pants down so to speak. In this case everyone was thinking or looking for a black pope or Peter the Roman, so everyone looked at Cardinal Peter Turkson and when Pope Francis came along people said the prophecies missed the mark. But I was thinking about it for a while and then I realized that Peter the Roman, it's a stretch but still ... Cardinal Bergoglio is a Jesuit, traditionally their dress is black. They originated the whole dressing in black which later priests would follow, compared to Benedictines which are white with black, or Franciscans which are brow etc. Then additionally Peter being a reference to the papacy not a name, the Roman, as most everyone has talked about Cardinal Bergoglio is of what is mostly Italian origin more than he is Latin American. I know this is a stretch but I thought it was interesting and yes maybe I am making the puzzle fit the piece hahaha but it's all in good nature.

Other than that I have to say it really seems this man has a genuine interest in changing the Church for better. I don't know what effect that will have but change can sometimes be a good thing. I am still on the side of thinking that too much change could be a bad thing. I mean whats the use of measurements from a ruler whose marks change to fit our whim?

Again I send only my best regards to all of you!

reply to post by FlyersFan


i support what he's trying to achieve


Any SANE people would love what this pope did so far

this is just one of the articles that covered his actions:
www.nytimes.com...

reply to post by adjensen


Our population has grown yes...that really says nothing about membership. Catholic families have grown since the world population has as well...SO?...how is that MORE membership?

but if we had so much more membership as you say then the Church would have tons more priests as well no?

Then why is it having recruitment problems...SINCE vatican 2...

en.wikipedia.org...

Talk to some priests every now and again friend...

And as far as practicing Catholics...well you cant be serious.....lol

That is why I say losing Catholics in droves. We went from an actual life long faith to a Christmas mass a year....that is a loss bub. Not a gain.

also

I am sorry. Not excommunicated...but rather suppressed for CONSTANTLY being more concerned with worldly affairs and politics rather than the salvation of souls and matters of faith.

They make great scholars and teachers...though they are terrible priests, in the end they would make great politicians...as this pope demonstrates...

Tell me again how he has made the church focus on its mission statement...you know...that very Catholic thing...supposedly...THE SALVATION OF SOULS.....?


He is great for PC concerned people, and multicultural new age lovers....but how is he good for Catholics...?

How are the Jesuits traditional Catholics? Or even remotely Catholic?

judging other people using prophecies/myths are the sign of ignorance.
prophecies/myths should not be taken seriously.
they are created by ignorants for ignorants.

you shouldnt live the entire life as ignorants by living inside fantasy.
because you will miss the taste of living life fully

living in fear by waiting for rapture, tribulations is the worst way to appreciate God.

Subsidiarity (Catholicism)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. Political decisions should be taken at a local level if possible, rather than by a central authority. [1] The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level.
Look up subsidiarity in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

The word subsidiarity is derived from the Latin word subsidiarius


cool.


en.wikipedia.org...

ok,, here,,

the Pastor Bonus will be replaced by a “newly configured Constitution that will be include relevant points” and will be inspired on the principle of subsidiarity. The result will be a Curia that serves local Churches.

lol

reply to post by BobAthome


I've long thought that subsidiarity was a wonderful concept

poorly executed by the RCC.

Power tends to collect increasing amounts and intensities of POWER!

Bureaucratic power is particularly bad at that.

And RELIGIOUS BUREAUCRACIES are probably the worst regardless of the brand label.

The discussion on the web before the conclave was very substantial. Not only forums but also articles in newspapers. I don't want and can't repeat it and it is not my role in anyway. But everyone interested may go back 6-7 months and read it.

Pope Francis makes bold steps. Bolder ones are needed. Let he change every stone in the Vatican if necessary. It can't continue any longer. Hope the cardinals' team of 8, leaded by Maradiaga, not only know what to be done but are going to do it. Maradiaga was spelled as papabile in both elections2005 and 2013. Let they do something substantial for the people. It is not me or a forum or a newspaper to tell them what to do. However they are aware of the public opinion expressed here and there, sometimes much more energetically in comments below newspaper articles than in a more quiet and respected forum like this one. The catholics themselves should be the first ones to push for reforms.

Particularly I want to know the Vatican position on extraterrestrials, after the Fatima October 13 consecration. Let they tell us the real text. Let they tell us all they know of extraterrestrials starting from Eisenhower meeting that Pius XII was informed by cardinal of Los Angeles McIntyre. Or may be the Vatican knows much older stories. Let they speak, now. Why should Giordano Bruno be burnt for saying there are other stars - worlds over there. Perhaps those people back then knew it well in secret knowledge. Today is a new generation and I hope - new mentality too. We have the right to know what they hide for so long.