Minimum Wage = Maximum Nonsense - A Masochistic Invitation to Derision

Pejeu

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by Pejeu

 

Tell me something. What kind of Star Trek utopia do you live in?
Neither you or I can take care of everybody. People have to work things out for themselves.
Starting with a level playing field is about all we can do but we can't keep it level.
A rich guy can send his kid to a better school, you know darn well you would send yours to the best school you can. Does that make you a hypocrite? No! It makes you a good parent.
I plan on sending mine to college with no loans, if that makes me evil in your eyes so be it.

And it's funny you call right wingers rich hypocrites.
Name the leading liberal progressives.
Nancy pilosi.. Worth 35 million
Michael Moore.. Worth 50 million
Al gore... Worth 300 million
Tom cruise.. Worth 250 million
Sean penn... Worth 150 million

These are the people leading the charge for the poor man?
This discussion about the minimum wage has gone way off track!

So what you're basically saying is that there is not enough to go round for everyone to live a decent, perhaps even nice, middle-class life. This is in and of itself a lie.

But regardless...

You conclude from this unfounded hypothesis of yours which you take for unassailable fact that, as there isn't enough for everyone to lead nice lives, we might as well defraud or covertly steal (perhaps even under the guise of lawfulness and justice) from others so that we might live better lives than we otherwise would, irrespective of the fact that the ones we take from will be even worse, perhaps horrendously off.

This is the typical right wing mentality.

If there isn't enough for everyone to go around and have nice life of it than it's ok for some to appropriate from others (by fraud and direct or indirect coercion) even if it impoverishes or outright starves them to death.

Hey, survival of the fittest/smartest/ablest, right?!

Oh, wait a second here.

Isn't that what you always claim the left is about?

edit on 2013/9/29 by Pejeu because: (no reason given)

edit on 2013/9/29 by Pejeu because: (no reason given)

edit on 2013/9/29 by Pejeu because: (no reason given)

Yes yes, life isn't fair never has been never will be, you better learn to deal with that fact.
Again,,, your on the wrong thread

masqua
reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71

 

...and minmum wage laws are uncapitalistic?

Sorry, I don't buy that unless you're saying a capitalist country, like America, is Communist by going the minimum wage route. Mild socialism, sure, but not anything Pol Pot would have endorsed.

Banking is for profit socialism.

When banks lend they actually issue new money into circulation.

They do not loan out money that already existed in the economy. But create new money by the very act of lending it.

Completely unlike how a non-bank creditor operates.

Which causes inflation.

Which is what actually pays for the loans and redistributes purchasing power and, by line of consequence, redirects resources in society towards the original goal of the loan.

It is inflation that actually pays for the loan the bank only apparently extended.

And it is society who bears the hidden tax of inflation. Who actually pays for/supports/extends the loan, in actual fact.

So why should the bank make profit on something someone else provided for free (of no uncoerced volition or informed choice I might add)?

Right wingers conveniently gloss over such questions.

Hoosierdaddy71Yes yes, life isn't fair never has been never will be, you better learn to deal with that fact.
Again,,, your on the wrong thread

Yes, I've known life is unfair for decades now.

The question is why should we not even want to attempt to change this fact or at least ameliorate the injustices?

Because that is what you actually want.

To keep things grossly unfair into perpetuity.

masqua
reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71

 

...and minmum wage laws are uncapitalistic?

Sorry, I don't buy that unless you're saying a capitalist country, like America, is Communist by going the minimum wage route. Mild socialism, sure, but not anything Pol Pot would have endorsed.

Actually I said in an earlier post that I like minimum wage laws. I just don't feel that raising them to high is good for anyone. They make a good starting point for setting wage scales but they should not determine what pay should be.

reply to post by Pejeu


You are complaining about the system but I don't hear your brilliant solution.
Like it or not capitalism encourages innovation. The reward at the end of the tunnel is the drive to greater ends.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


Solution to what?

The flawed monetary system?
The flawed incentive system?

There is no capitalism, my dear friend.

There is no capitalism when and where banks are allowed to take root and function. And banks have been allowed to take root and function everywhere for centuries.

Capitalism is incompatible with banks.

In capitalism you supposedly save/acquire capital before you can invest it.

In... this you simply take what you need from other people through inflation using the banks as enforcer / mugger for hire.

What you call capitalism you ought to call liberalism (in the classical sense of the word).

Or for profit socialism.


There are at least three alternative monetary systems, that I know of (one of which I think I thought up by myself, I don't know of anyone having proposed it), which would be arguably better than this.

Two of which are truly capitalist.

But they are way beyond the scope of this thread or my willingness/eagerness to share with one such as you.




For the time being, at least.

reply to post by Pejeu

Capitalism is incompatible with banks.

Now this is simply not true, while a central bank and fiat currency is anathema to the free market, banks (lots of them coming into and going out of existence) are facilitators of economic growth and stability.

BTW, I created that thread regarding the graphic representation of the political and ideological spectrum to provide a frame of reference:

Circular Thinking - Graphic Analogs of the Political Spectrum - An Ideology Refresher

reply to post by Pejeu


Then tell me what you prefer... Tell me how you would set up the worlds economy to make you happy. That is the solution I want from you. All you have said is that its a corrupt system. Ok I agree. Now how would you make it better?

reply to post by greencmp


Banking is legalised (or not criminalised) fraud. Or counterfeiting of money.

If you consider fraud or counterfeiting to be a legitimate economic activity then I suppose you are right.

Capitalism is compatible with fractional reserve banking (there is no other kind, that's why it's called banking: cause it is based on the fractional reserve fraud/ponzi scheme) under such a caveat.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


I just had a very lengthy and energy sapping discussion about this on another forum today. I don't have the wherewithal to start all over here so soon.

But, just for you, I'll give it a shot at a very short description:

1. Fixed money supply. No more new electronic or physical cash money is issued, ever. Except to replace worn out notes or to exchange a given amount in notes with an equivalent amount in notes of higher or lower denomination.

Or to replace a nominal amount electronic money with an equivalent nominal amount of cash or vice versa.

All banks abolished, their assets confiscated to, in small part, reimburse some of the people they've defrauded over the years.

All property of bankers confiscated, bankers thrown in jail for fraud and counterfeiting.

All debt to banks cancelled or at least the interest part cancelled and the debt ownership/claim on the debt/debt bond transferred to the government.

Interest already paid by debtors deducted from outstanding amounts.

2. 1 + restoring EXCLUSIVE money issuing power to the treasury, as Congress deems fit, AS PER THE CONSTITUTION.

3. (I thought this one up personally) Private money issued by corporations backed by the goods they produce. That is to say, redeemable at 1:1 ratio in the face inscribed amount, type and quality of product manufactured/produced by the issuing corporation.

For example Royal Dutch Shell would issue money redeemable in barrels of oil. Or gallons of gas or diesel fuel.

Naturally, the currency would have an expiration date set a certain time after issuance (this date would also be inscribed on the face of the notes along with the type, quantity and quality of goods backing the notes). A year for instance.

That is to say you would not be able to redeem (buy) barrels of oil from RDS in 2013 with RDS issued currency from 2010, backed by their 2010 production.

This would single handedly annihilate speculators.

As well as keep RDS from issuing notes for more oil then they can reedem them back with. As they would get caught after just one year of doing this and the consequences would be dire (beheadings if it were up to me).

The currency would enter circulation as RDS paid its employees and suppliers with it and would retire from circulation as customers of RDS would buy RDS product (oil or oil derivatives) with it from RDS.

What is left unredeemed of a year's production is paid as dividends to RDS stock holders. Their claim on this unredeemed oil stock would never expire and they would be free to sell those claims to whom/how they see fit.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


So okay, he's 77 so he's too old. Doesn't need a raise at all. Gotcha.

What do we need social programs for if we have a living wage? Well even if MW was a $100 an hour people temporarily get out of work, have health problems, yada yada. And if you're currently not working you're still making $0 regardless of the minimum wage is. That's why you don't get rid of social programs. Don't know why you would want to. They're good for the country and have gotten the country out of many pickles.

You should be able to see that a living wage PLUS social programs is good for the economy overall. If you can get people back on their feet again and SPENDING in YOUR store again it's a good thing. You're still not able to see the long haul. Help a person who's TEMPORARILY down and many times they'll make it up over the LONG HAUL. Like I said, you seem to be very short sighted.

Or even if they don't and just sit on their butts collecting food stamps and pop out a bunch of kids. Well their kids will still likely be future consumers who'll make up for it anyway. Heck population growth alone many times contributes to economic growth. More people=more consumers=more business. So even if they just do that it can still turn out good for the economy.

I know it seems absurd at first though, but if you study patterns over the years you'll find out the country actually can make money off people who just do nothing but pop out kids. Weird, I know.

So, what I'm trying to show is that things that are temporarily BAD for the economy over the long haul usually turn out to be GOOD.

As for a centralized Federal Reserve being good for the economy? I don't know if it's good or bad, but I do know that's the way it was designed and what everyone wants. Remember the banking crisis? Sure everyone complained about the bail outs for sure. However, had the feds NOT done the INFLATIONARY bailout and our economy collapsed and riots broke out in the streets It wouldn't be very long before those very SAME people complaining about the bailouts would be out in the streets going GOD HELP ME! THERE'S NO FOOD IN THE STORES! NOBODY CAN BUY GAS! THEY'RE BURNING DOWN MY FRIGGIN HOUSE! WHY DOESN'T THE GOV DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE COLLAPSE!

So, I don't know, maybe people want the feds far more than they realize.

As for me, I managed a restaurant in high school which I maintain sucks just as much as factory work in many ways. Went to college and have degrees in mathematics and computer science. Then did AI research where the main research was specifically for AI that would detect future patterns in economies. This resulted in predicting the housing bubble collapse 10+ years prior. So, I had to learn about the economy to do this and what I found out was to make accurate predictions I had to think about things totally different than I had been taught.

The economy is much more complex than one would imagine. Assumptions that seem dead simple to figure out are often times WRONG! Like for example the women that just sits there popping out kids all day on welfare. Surely this women is a drain on the economy right?

But predict the spending habits of this same family out over 2, 3, 4 generations? Many times those kids turns out to be workers, or business owners, and tax payers and so forth and you end up seeing a net PLUS for the economy. Something most people would never realize or imagine unless they sat down and saw the data over time.

Where as people running out and buying houses causing home sales to go through the roof should be good for the economy right? But as we see over the long haul it was just a crashing bubble that almost collapsed our entire system.

Anyway, out of college I maintained business software for local businesses. Mainly C++/Java coding until I started my own online businesses in domain name registration, hosting, website design, and custom website development.

Due to various reasons including recent health reasons haven't really WORKED since I was in my late 20s. In my early 30s now. Not only do I not go into work on Sunday. I usually don't work all month. My partner in business handles virtually everything now and I just cash checks.

However, I hope for my health to improve so I can actually get back to work because I enjoy what I do. I'd rather work than be sick, but it is what it is.

As for the wife, she decides she wants to be one of those "career" women and work anyway. So, now she is head of her department and has a few employees under her. And that's life over here. Not really rich by any means, but when you're as jacked up as me who cares? Can't spend it anyway.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Doesn't that make you one of those evil capitalist that sits back and cashes the checks? Lol
Ok I guess not. Look I have no issue with some forms of welfare but you have to agree that there needs to be some accountability and limits to the handouts. And I don't need the 77 yr old at all, it's out of generosity that I employ him. I know he needs the money so I guess that makes me a jerk.


And I want to thank you for your honesty. If I was right about you I wouldn't want to waste my time.
I am like you in that I make a decent living but am not getting rich and certainly not cheating my employees.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


Oh and the last time I voted it was for Kerry. Actually in the end I think it was probably better that Bush won though.

I actually didn't end up voting either time for or against Obama. In the last election was simply because I couldn't move five feet let alone get to the stupid polls. But was going to vote against Obama actually. Wife voted for Obama though I think. I'm still not sure which one of us was right there yet.

I'm pretty conservative actually except for like TWO things, and that's I support social welfare programs and minimum wage then you have me basically.

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

Doesn't that make you one of those evil capitalist that sits back and cashes the checks? Lol

I have no idea if I'm evil or not. Like I said, had to leave it in control of my partner for now. He's supposed to just be selling websites to clients, but by the time I get back, who knows? For all I know he's worked up some pinky and the brain scheme to take over the world or something. This is why I hope I can get back to work soon.

Also, I know you're probably not intentionally screwing your employees. I was mostly just trying to show how they can get unintentionally screwed over without anyone even thinking about all the issues. You pay your employee the same wage every week? What's the problem? And to a normal person it might never occur that well yeah he gets paid the same every week, but inflation keeps going up. He's actually getting poorer every week right along with the company too.

But that doesn't mean I'm really in support of the inflation or even the system as a whole. I think the current system we have is basically insane. It's just a cycle of perpetual debt. However, it's what we got and since it's so screwed up I think MW is good thing. If our financial system made more sense however you probably wouldn't need a minimum wage at all.

And while I'm in support of the concept, I'm not necessarily in support of the current implementation. First of all politicians don't understand MW either. And they make it a political thing which leads to bad decisions like raising the MW at the wrong time. Or raising it too much. Or not raising it enough. Like now, some of them want to raise it now? Now? Isn't everyone going broke now? Isn't Detroit like a waste land? I may be in support of raising the MW, but probably not NOW. Now may be a bad time! But politicians aren't smart enough to know when.

What I really wish we had is a more sane system that wasn't as debt based and didn't need a MW at all. Or if we do have one just peg it to inflation maybe, get rid of the politics, then businesses and the free market can predict the costs far ahead of time and adjust accordingly.

I love it, I really do. I know that ATS is a only a slice of society at large, probably not the best indicator of society as a whole but I have seen and heard these comments from average everyday people at coffee shops and whatnot. I have participated in them as well.

Ya know, they have won. The game is truly over. I am not sure whether to laugh at or cry for you people.

We sit and fight amongst ourselves, the average citizen of any country free enough to allow it, whether we should be giving a little more money to the poor or let "the market" decide what wages should be. Meanwhile, on the other side of town, people that run these companies, not most small business but medium to large businesses, small business is has it pretty freakin hard now too, use off shore tax shelters and banking havens to hide TRILLIONS of dollars so they don't have to pay tax on that money. That's right, TRILLIONS, with a T! Not a freakin' penny of tax is payed on that amount. Tens, if not hundreds, of Billions in tax revenue that doesn't get collected by all our respective governments, EVERY YEAR!!!!!

A study by James S. Henry, former chief economist at McKinsey & Company, estimates that wealthy individuals have $21 trillion to $32 trillion in private financial wealth tucked away in offshore havens — roughly equivalent to the size of the U.S. and Japanese economies combined.

www.icij.org...

That amount at the high end, is equivalent to the GDP of the world's top four nations by GDP combined! At the low end, the top 3! Yet, here you all are, fighting about whether the poor deserve 6.50 or 7.50 an hour.

Retarded.

They have won folks, Wave the bloody white flag. They didn't like that people started to make a little more money and the costs involved with business was going up and cutting into shareholder profits( the same folks who aren't pay taxes because they have hidden their money in shelters all over the world ) so they moved shop to China, Vietnam, Malyasia, etc... and opened slave labour camps to staff the production plants. And we took it, smiled nodded, said thanks for all the cheap third world crap that we used to make here of better quality in your large box stores staffed by people we are paying the least amount of money we can too. We'd pay less but we ain't allowed!

Oh and there was a post on one of the first couple of pages about the average wage is above( or way above, I'm not going back to check at the moment ). Sure it is and here's why.

Just a small made up, very simplified example to show the absurdity of such a remark.

Country A has about a 100,000 people working. 70, 000 of them work at minimum wage of 7 dollars/hr. 25,000 work for a medium wage, say 25 dollars/hr. 4,995 work at a high wage, say 100 dollars/hr. And the other five own the businesses they work for and make an average of 1 million a year, which equates to about 500 dollars an hour.

So
70000 x 7= 490000
25000 x 25=625000
4995 x 100=499500
5 x 500=2500

The average wage of those people is just over 16 dollars an hour yet, the overwhelming majority work at minimum wage. Not hard to raise the average wage above what ever minimum is, regardless of how many people work at it.

Oh and a small cadre of people robbed the world a few years ago, bringing down the world in the process and hitting it with a world wide depression not seen since the 30's. How many of the bastards went to jail for committing crimes that cost the many people their livelyhoods, retirements, life savings and has forced many, many people to either, give up on retirement and work till they die, take on second, third or maybe fourth jobs to feed their families or lose their homes all together because there weren't any jobs to be had!!!!

NONE!!!!

Not one of the rat bastards went to jail.

Yes, some people took on mortgages that they couldn't afford and they lost everything because of it. Good. lesson learned I hope for them. But the over whelming majority weren't those people. They were average, middle class people trying to make a living.

And are you telling me that those people, mostly living in America, brought the world economy to it's knees???

Can you say that with a straight face?

I doubt most of you will bother to read the link above and follow up on what it says. It might challenge your belief system and give your brain a jolt.

Or maybe just watch this to start. Not all encompassing but it's a good start. maybe reading and researching isn't your thing...

www.pbs.org...

Seriously, again I say i don't know whether to laugh at or cry for you people.

They don't need to kill us off, we will happily, gleefully, with a big smile on our faces, kill each other for scraps while those pricks sit back and laugh at all of us.

What kind of freakin' bizzarro world have I woke up in? Stop the ride, I want off.

GAOTU789

A study by James S. Henry, former chief economist at McKinsey & Company, estimates that wealthy individuals have $21 trillion to $32 trillion in private financial wealth tucked away in offshore havens — roughly equivalent to the size of the U.S. and Japanese economies combined.

Indeed, those monopolies, facilitated and enforced by the threat of state violence, have maintained their domination at the expense of all of us.

You may be interested in the thread below which explores this topic:

Crony Capitalism - The American Economy is Not a Free-Market Economy

reply to post by greencmp


That story has absolutely nothing to do with monopolies. It is individuals, the amount in total is less than the population of some small countries, doing this. Politicians, business owners, people connected to different industries such as the entertainment, defence, banking and so on.

I didn't even touch on monoplies other than a short paragraph that alluded to them. They are a different story all together but equal in their ability to bend us all over on a daily basis without so much as dinner or even a kiss.

I read your thread and I understand deeply what crony capitalism, also know as corporatism or corporate fascism is. Thanks for the invite.

GAOTU789
reply to post by greencmp

 

That story has absolutely nothing to do with monopolies. It is individuals, the amount in total is less than the population of some small countries, doing this. Politicians, business owners, people connected to different industries such as the entertainment, defence, banking and so on.

I didn't even touch on monoplies other than a short paragraph that alluded to them. They are a different story all together but equal in their ability to bend us all over on a daily basis without so much as dinner or even a kiss.

I read your thread and I understand deeply what crony capitalism, also know as corporatism or corporate fascism is. Thanks for the invite.

edit on 29-9-2013 by GAOTU789 because: (no reason given)

I just mean that they are hoarding the vast majority of wealth, monopolists of capital if you prefer. But, generally, they accumulated their vast wealth with the express permission, assistance and complicity of the state (usually through actual business monopolies).

superluminal11
The good news is none of us make it to the year 2020.

And then there is nihilism...

tinfoilman
reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71

 

Oh and the last time I voted it was for Kerry. Actually in the end I think it was probably better that Bush won though.

I actually didn't end up voting either time for or against Obama. In the last election was simply because I couldn't move five feet let alone get to the stupid polls. But was going to vote against Obama actually. Wife voted for Obama though I think. I'm still not sure which one of us was right there yet.

I'm pretty conservative actually except for like TWO things, and that's I support social welfare programs and minimum wage then you have me basically.

Well, it is my understanding that if you took all of the resources currently devoted to social programs, sold the buildings and the equipment, fired everyone and disbanded the Departments and Agencies and distributed every penny to all American citizens in equal proportion, the current recipients would likely get an approximately identical amount.

So, while I don't recommend that solution, especially coming from Milton Friedman whom I have tremendous suspicions about, it is a very informative thought experiment. Compared to the way social welfare is handled now, it is absurdly preferable and quite doable.

The real beneficiaries of the social welfare system are the employees of the social welfare system, not so much the needy. We can and should do better individually, not relying on the state to do something which is neither advisable nor even possible.

reply to post by greencmp


You DO realize , people with the lowest paying jobs, often times work HARDER than you ever have or will in your lifetime.?.10 Bucks an hour will still be poverty level. Why don't we just let more illegal s in the country that will make I
This all go away. I was being faciesh with the last comment.

kurthall
reply to post by greencmp

 

You DO realize , people with the lowest paying jobs, often times work HARDER than you ever have or will in your lifetime.?.10 Bucks an hour will still be poverty level. Why don't we just let more illegal s in the country that will make I
This all go away. I was being faciesh with the last comment.

Yeah right, you have no idea what I have done in my life but, anyone over the age of 24 has most likely worked harder than you could tolerate watching a movie about.

Also, you could read the article so you know what the topic is. Not how much should minimum wage be but, whether or not it is destructive to have it.