Readying for Fukushima fuel move

reply to post by Raxoxane


BobAthome explained it far better then I could. It would also be unprecedented so I am not sure we entirely know other then our math and the visual example given. As the article states the upcoming project in November is unprecedented (yes I use the word twice because that's what the article says). Also thank you BobAthome for locating that and linking to it.

Anyhow I have been focusing more on transmutation of the isotopes, tracking those, bioaccumulation, and the contamination of our seafood. This just came up today when I was checking the news. Hope it helps. I had no idea this was starting next month.

Logiciel
reply to post by Human0815

 

just a few stupid considerations:
Given that this is potentially a WCE (World changing event), who comissioned the operation? Was it a call for tender? national? international? or is it some DIY Tepco solution? did some brains work on the procedure or is it just a few maintenance guys coming up with "a solution"? The creme de la creme of world ingeneers should have worked on this. Brains.

I don't understand how all this is so underestimated. How there was no international crisis meeting...
This is the result of the "dumbening program" instigated by the TPTB. Social networks and virtual reality totally disconected us from what is actually happening. It pisses me off so bad. And I feel I am living in a fictional World. How can this be happening?

Good question. It is being supported internationally as experts have concluded it is the best choice given their limited options. Let it sit there - awaiting another bad quake/storm or begin removing the rods - that are not stable enough to be left alone indefinitely. This is a seriously high risk endeavor but it's the only way to stop further problems.

reply to post by Pimpintology

I will read what Bob Athome said,then,sorry I do not have the time to keep up with everything I should be reading

I was saying to my hubby for a long time,let us buy only Atlantic tuna for sandwiches.As I said to him today:"Ten years from now,Atlantic fish will be a highly prized commodity,if no way is found to stop the stream of radioactive waste into the Pacific-it will propably be priced out of the range of most locals by then.we better eat our fill of seafood while we can" We treated ourselves to a big Snoek today (barracuda-like type local fish,a SA classic dish) That is something that worries me a lot,the future effects on the marine life+seafood industry.

My youngest daughter wants to work as a marine biologist-she may be in for an interesting career,presuming she can reach that goal.

reply to post by BobAthome


What you showed is "a Extreme" and very unlikely
because the Atoms are not that Agile anymore
like your tiny Balls from the Video.

In fact the Atoms are already in a very rigid State (Cold)
and it would need Days to create a Scenario like you showed here,
it need alone ca. two Weeks to reduce all the Water in that Pool when we
do not refill it and add Boron and Nitrogen, but all this would happen!

Someone above mentioned this Yale Professor,
you need to know that he is a Sociologist and not a Physicist!
He is without the exact knowledge about Atoms (like us)
and he never watched inside this Pool, he share this non- experience
with all the Clowns on the Pseudo-Blogosphere as well as the well-known
People like Arnie Gundersen!

We need to remove this Stuff now, for the sake of Japan and the
whole World.

The risks are much smaller when we close this Pool for ever.

And even when it is going bad- at least we tried it

Phage
Assuming the transfer is successfully completed, will the constant flow of cooling water no longer be necessary? It seems like that would be the case. It seems like this is a very positive development.

A huge assumption.

Japan's Cut-Price Nuclear Cleanup

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The intention is to ship used fuel from the plant periodically for recycling. Tepco and JAPC are building a Recyclable Fuel Storage Centre in Mutsu, due to operate from mid 2012 with 5000 t capacity. The JPY 100 billion facility will provide interim storage for up to 50 years before used fuel is reprocessed at Rokkasho. NISA approved this in August 2010. Until the Mutsu storage is finished and operational in 2012 there has been a build-up of used fuel at reactor sites. The Rokkasho plant has been much delayed, and is now expected in commercial operation in October 2012. There is some storage capacity there, though this may be full.

At the time of the accident, in addition to a large number of used fuel assemblies, unit 4's pond also held a full core load of 548 fuel assemblies while the reactor was undergoing maintenance, these having been removed at the end of November.

The temperature of these ponds is normally low, around 30°C when circulation is maintained with the Fuel Pool Circulation and Clean-up (FCP) system, but they are designed to be safe at about 85°C in the absence of pumped circulation (and presumably with moderate fuel load). They are about 12 metres deep, so the fuel is normally covered by 7 metres of water.

Unit 2, 3 & 4 ponds are about 12 x 10 metres, with 1240, 1220 and 1590 assemblies capacity respectively (unit 1 is about 12 x 7 m, 900 assemblies). Unit 4 pond contains a total 1331 used assemblies (783 plus full fuel load of 548), giving it a heat load of about 3 MW thermal, according to France's IRSN, which in that case could lead to 115 cubic metres of water boiling off per day, or about one tenth of its volume. Other estimates put the heat load at 2 MW. Unit 3's pool contains 514 fuel assemblies, unit 1 has 292 and unit 2 has 587, giving it a heat load of 1 MW.


There is no MOX fuel in any of the ponds. Unit 4 pond also has 204 fresh fuel assemblies which were ready for loading. In 2012 some of these were removed and checked, and found to be undamaged.

Two of the reactor unit ponds (2 & 4) were unusually full even before unit 4 core was unloaded in November, since there was little spare space (only for 465 assemblies) in the central fuel storage pond on site. Thus there was a lot more fuel in the reactor ponds with correspondingly high heat loads and cooling requirements than might have been the case.

Moving the used fuel from reactor ponds to central storage involves loading it under water into casks which are lowered down and trucked the short distance (see RH side of cutaway diagram above). It requires access from the service floor and the use of cranes which were damaged in the hydrogen explosions.

The central fuel storage on site near unit 4 has a pond about 12 x 29 metres, 11 m deep, with capacity of 3828 m3 and able to hold 6840 fuel assemblies.

In March 2011 it held 6375 assemblies, and was not damaged in the accident. Its building is about 55 x 73 m. Due to the fuel here being older, it has very low decay heat. As well as this pond, there are 408 used fuel assemblies in dry cask storage - utilized since 1995 for used fuel no longer needing much cooling.

World-Nuclear Source

Our Friends from Tepco Public Relation published the following Video:

Fuel Discharge from Reactor 4 Spent Fuel Pool in Fukushima Daiichi NPS
You need to visit Tepcos Page here

reply to post by Human0815

What you showed is "a Extreme" and very unlikely
because the Atoms are not that Agile anymore
like your tiny Balls from the Video.

Not that agile anymore? You mean radioactive don't you? Extremely agile. All they need is a wake up call, to put it in your parlance.

In fact the Atoms are already in a very rigid State (Cold)
and it would need Days to create a Scenario like you showed here,

Or dropping a fuel rack assembly during transfer. Or the contents of fuel rods (pellets) spilling out of damaged, warped and or saltwater corroded fuel rods in the racks. If the pellets clatter to the bottom of the pool and end up in a pile touching each other that could start an uncontrolled reaction which could then involve some more elements of fuel stored in the pool.

This is a very delicate, very carefully controlled operation. They will be taking their time pulling each rack or assembly of racks from the pool a little_at_a_time. Being careful not to bind or jar the assemblies if they can. One uncontrollable factor is recurring aftershocks while the rods are dangling from cranes half in and out of the pool.

reply to post by intrptr


One thing is that when you live in Japan you know and understand
that in the next moment your Life is maybe Destroyed,
your Kids killed, your Wife missing and the whole Family gone
but still we go on because it is wrong to stop Life because of Fear!

Fear is a Choice and i chose to not fear the next Moment!

I'm going to ask - even at the risk of sounding stupid - with a question about an unlikely but possible mishap with Fukushima. Again - this is highly unlikely but I like to be informed so if anyone can fill in these holes that would be great.


If no news how would we know if things go bad? What would it look like?

Thereafter - would we have time to get our loved ones gathered up? Meaning - how long would it take to reach us (in the western United States for me).

We are told to listen for instructions for taking potasium iodine if a nuclear event happens. These instructions are dependent upon people monitoring the air. What if comminications are down, or are slow to reach us? At what point would one make a decision on this? They can be toxic so it isn't like taking an aspirin so am curious what others would do.

I have read some of the instructions on these things but they are for situations that are close to home. Because Fukushima is even remotely possible I'm just wanting some feedback. If nothing else - would we know by the air quality (smell, sight).

reply to post by Human0815


Wow, you have some inside information. Seems you have inside connections, does a close relative work for the TEPCO? Or did you at one time?

I was reading about this on a link that someone posted on Facebook the other day, I don't know how much accuracy is in the article, but it had me a tad concerned....the first concern I have had since the quake that started this...

Fuel Removal From Fukushima’s Reactor 4 Threatens ‘Apocalyptic’ Scenario. Radiation Fuel Rods Matches Fallout of 14,000 Hiroshima Bombs

A chorus of voices has been sounding alarm over the never-been-done-at-this-scale plan to manually remove the 400 tons of spent fuel by TEPCO, who so far has been responsible for mishap after mishap in the ongoing crisis at the crippled nuclear plant.

Arnie Gundersen, a veteran U.S. nuclear engineer and director of Fairewinds Energy Education, warned this summer that “They are going to have difficulty in removing a significant number of the rods,” and said that “To jump to the conclusion that it is going to work just fine is quite a leap of logic.” Paul Gunter, MD, Director of the Reactor Oversight Project with Takoma Park, Md.-based Beyond Nuclear, also sounded alarm on Thursday, telling Common Dreams in a statement that “Given the uncertainties of the condition and array of the hundreds of tons of nuclear fuel assemblies, it will be a risky round of highly radioactive pickup sticks.” Gundersen offered this analogy of the challenging process of removing the spent fuel rods:

If you think of a nuclear fuel rack as a pack of cigarettes, if you pull a cigarette straight up it will come out — but these racks have been distorted. Now when they go to pull the cigarette straight out, it’s going to likely break and release radioactive cesium and other gases, xenon and krypton, into the air. I suspect come November, December, January we’re going to hear that the building’s been evacuated, they’ve broke a fuel rod, the fuel rod is off-gassing. […]

I suspect we’ll have more airborne releases as they try to pull the fuel out. If they pull too hard, they’ll snap the fuel. I think the racks have been distorted, the fuel has overheated — the pool boiled – and the net effect is that it’s likely some of the fuel will be stuck in there for a long, long time.

Any experts on the subject have an opinion on this article?

EDIT: For the record, I know enough to know that there is no chance of a chain reaction that will cause an explosion like that of an atomic weapon, it's the release into the atmosphere that has me concerned.

reply to post by Dianec


1.) Do not fear!
2.) Read link
"This is nothing you should do without a real Statement of a declared State
of Nuclear Emergency!!!"

This is also useful only in the case you have a Flight to the Southern Hemisphere!

3.) I estimate at least 5 Years for the USA

reply to post by crankyoldman


I do not know how i should read your Posting
but as we say "Mai Pen Rai"!


reply to post by woogleuk


Not useful at all, Arnie is a professional Shill from the Anti-Nuclear Side,
to talk with him about Fukushima is as useful as talking with the Catholic
Church about Bikini Fashion!

He was never inside of Daiichi, he never saw the new Building and he is
earning his Income by showing up in Radio / TV Shows!

reply to post by Human0815


From all accounts I have read about Arnold Gundersen, he is a professional when it comes to nuclear engineering, not a professional shill.

30 years of being a nuclear industry executive and engineer with a master's degree in nuclear engineering has to count for something right?

reply to post by woogleuk


He is not bad (a lot of Charisma ) but you get a pitiful Smile from your Partner
in a Real Life Forum/ Discussion when you talk about this Accident
and mention his Name!

He is not objective and earn his Money with Fearmongering!

reply to post by Dianec

If nothing else - would we know by the air quality (smell, sight).

Of course not stupid questions. Very complex technology.

Radioactive contamination is invisible to the eye. You can't hear, taste or see it. Like you said it is unlikely…

But say the worst happens. Say a large amount of the fuel stored in the pool is involved in another "meltdown". At the site that would look like the early pics of the reactors with "steam" coming out of them. There may even be explosions in the pool although this is even less likely. An uncontrolled fission chain reaction would release enormous amounts of radioactivity to the environment there. By the time it reached across oceans it would be diluted into the environment.

But no less dangerous. Its not like a gas attack where you get contaminated and you fall choking and die. The single largest threat to people who ingest small amounts of the actual contaminated particles is that sometime down the road some people that are exposed Internally can expect to develop cancers.

There is no safe minimal dose. Neither does it guarantee death from it. The bodies immune response varies from person to person as well as the type and amount of material ingested from sources like food, water and the air. These are variables on a broad scale. This whole process of fuel removal, any accidents, dissemination into the environment, and contracting disease from it will take decades.

The bigger question is not whether more accidents are going to be more deadly, but rather what about what has already happened? That stuff is traveling around the world and we are all exposed on some level already from what has already happened.

Everyone is holding their breath waiting for whatever consequences arise from this. Some are blissfully ignorant, others in bunker, rad suit, survival mode. Personally I am going to go walk my dog. I choose to be blissfully ignorant at this time. Besides I am poor and cannot afford any of the options that others have.

reply to post by Dianec


personaly for me once the "event" happens,and it is over,,,,,,IF,,it ruptures the FAULTLINE,,which has already been badly damaged by the quake,,already,,,and this is just too close too some very thin,,,strata,,,
ie TOBA/FUGI/TONGA,,the list goes on,, but if it unzips,, well,,once again,, who knows,,hell it might just swallow all of our radiation problems.
;0

reply to post by intrptr


Regarding: "There is no safe Radiation Dosage"

Actually this is wrong, we have Millions of People who work with Radioactive Material,
Radiation or/ and Waste Management.
(Dentists, Nurses, Stewardesses, Pilots, Nuclear Engineers, Nuclear Gypsies, etc.)

All of them are registered and under. Health-Surveillance,
when they stay under 100 Millisievert not statistical distinctive Features are observed!

100 Millisievert in a Year is already a lot,
we here in Tokyo are at ca. 0.75 Millisievert/ Year.
(ca. 0.10 micro-Sievert/ Hour, 2.4 micro-Sievert/ day)

People need Information and should not fear the unknown.

There are a few Videos from Tokyo Metropolis
at Youtube and/ or U-Stream from the Days of the
actual Phase of Melt-Down in Daiichi!

Even the Melt-Down do not killed us here in Tokyo
and i know from many other Expats who done a real Check-Up
after their returned to their Home-Country,
none of them got a increased Body-Load!

TEPCO prepares to remove nuclear fuel at Fukushima plant

OKUMA, Fukushima Prefecture--The 1,533 nuclear fuel assemblies were lined up in neat rows in the storage pool of the No. 4 reactor building amid new equipment and a clean environment.

But in stark contrast was the scene around the No. 4 reactor building at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant.

Concrete walls were still missing from the third and fourth floors of the No. 4 reactor building, raising questions among onlookers if the structure could withstand a huge earthquake.

On the sea side of the building, a piping system and metal rods were exposed behind collapsed walls of a former boiler building.

A truck swept up by the 2011 tsunami remained upside down by the side of the turbine building.

Amid these surroundings, Tokyo Electric Power Co. plans to start removing the nuclear fuel assemblies from the No. 4 storage pool as early as next week. The work would represent a new stage in the overall plan to end the nuclear crisis that started 32 months ago.

“It is a big step in the process to decommission the reactor,” Nuclear Regulation Authority Commissioner Toyoshi Fuketa said.

The entire decommissioning plan for the plant is expected to take 30 to 40 years to complete, and the strategy could change at any moment.

With Photos

Fuel removal is a daily event around the world . All plants get refueled about every 18 months. I'm sure they know what they are doing even though they have many issues to deal with it's old hat