Crony Capitalism - The American Economy is Not a Free-Market Economy

reply to post by wasaka

reply to post by greencmp


I hear what you are saying, I have always thought the communist model was foolishly idealistic, my difference is that I see the free market concept in the same light.

None of the 1st world nations are purely capitalistic. There are public assets, market regulation, and socialist programs that have also been included into the mix, which has been most successful in creating competitive markets.

It is the market system that has brought us such success, but there is no free market.

A successful market system requires a solid rule of law.

WhiteAlice


*Basically, they create barriers of entry into the market for both the innovation and the competitor.

edit on 26/9/13 by WhiteAlice because: added the *

Some innovators have claimed that being and innovator can be harmful to ones health and even fatal.

greencmp

Personally, I am willing to throw the term 'capitalism' under the bus for a variety of reasons not least of which being its derogatory origins from the communists of more than a century ago.

Sure, sure...blame the communists for everything.

Yet the only communist nations still standing are cuba and north korea. I wonder why? Not really. Its not about the government, its about who owns the economy. If the people as a whole own part of the economy its called socialism. If they own the entire economy its called communism.

I prefer to call what has always worked since time immemorial, when allowed to flourish unmolested, the free market.

And how long does it take for a few companies in each business sector to become the dominant players, thus creating monopolies? If the government helps them its an artificial monopoly, which is more common than a natural monopoly.

You cant do away with cronyism, you can only control it to an extent. Liberals tend to be more cronyist than conservatives since they believe in big government, over-regulation, bailouts, welfare statism.

Free market capitalism is bad and it shouldnt take a genius to figure out why. Mininum wages are necessary, tariffs to encourage a ballance of imports and exports, enviromental laws to keep pollution low, unions to give workers respect.

If the government is corrupt fix it. Get rid of the bad poliiticians and put in new ones. At least we can still vote in this country. The answer is not to do away with regulations, perhaps get rid of the redundant stuff.

EarthCitizen07

greencmp

Personally, I am willing to throw the term 'capitalism' under the bus for a variety of reasons not least of which being its derogatory origins from the communists of more than a century ago.

Sure, sure...blame the communists for everything.

Yet the only communist nations still standing are cuba and north korea. I wonder why? Not really. Its not about the government, its about who owns the economy. If the people as a whole own part of the economy its called socialism. If they own the entire economy its called communism.

I prefer to call what has always worked since time immemorial, when allowed to flourish unmolested, the free market.

And how long does it take for a few companies in each business sector to become the dominant players, thus creating monopolies? If the government helps them its an artificial monopoly, which is more common than a natural monopoly.

You cant do away with cronyism, you can only control it to an extent. Liberals tend to be more cronyist than conservatives since they believe in big government, over-regulation, bailouts, welfare statism.

Free market capitalism is bad and it shouldnt take a genius to figure out why. Mininum wages are necessary, tariffs to encourage a ballance of imports and exports, enviromental laws to keep pollution low, unions to give workers respect.

If the government is corrupt fix it. Get rid of the bad poliiticians and put in new ones. At least we can still vote in this country. The answer is not to do away with regulations, perhaps get rid of the redundant stuff.

I think there is a slight historical sinkhole at the heart of the argument that a "well regulated" market is somehow going to make everything better. To further claim that monopolies are caused by the free market is simply wrong.

State regulations, tariffs, taxes and other manipulations have been the tools of government for millenia. What makes anyone think that further interference will improve this cronyist 'market' that is clearly the product of the very same controls which you propose.

The gradual (or sudden) corruption of government is inevitable. The only way to 'fix' an inevitability is to lower its significance. Lower the power afforded government and enjoy a corresponding decrease in corruption and/or its ill effects.

reply to post by greencmp


So you are going to use the two mainstream parties as a strawman to push for minimum regulation?

Who said we need even more regulations than we have now, anyway?

As long as fools keep voting D and R then nothing will change for the better, only for the worse.

We already have free trade, we just dont have free market capitalism.

The devil is in the details, but none have time for that. Its easier to generalise.

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by greencmp

 

So you are going to use the two mainstream parties as a strawman to push for minimum regulation?

Who said we need even more regulations than we have now, anyway?

As long as fools keep voting D and R then nothing will change for the better, only for the worse.

We already have free trade, we just dont have free market capitalism.

The devil is in the details, but none have time for that. Its easier to generalise.

Yes, the governments that have already existed are where I cite most of my examples from. I am happy to engage in discussing hypothetical governments as well but, what I am always arguing for is minimal government if I am to generalize.

What we have now is not the free market.

We need to reduce the power that is granted to government but, one of very few responsibilities that we do require of the state to do is to chop up the monopolies it has created and defended.

reply to post by greencmp


Obviously its not free market if the federal reserve is the secret government and has the final say in everything. We do have free trade though and that is why we are running huge deficits especially with china.

www.census.gov...

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by greencmp

 

Obviously its not free market if the federal reserve is the secret government and has the final say in everything. We do have free trade though and that is why we are running huge deficits especially with china.

www.census.gov...

Hmm, I do see what you mean. That is one of the unanswered questions about how to implement anti-trust with multinationals, I don't have a clear solution yet. China is effectively the biggest multi-national corporation on earth.

From the point of view of free trade, I do not believe in economic isolationism or trade wars. The FTAs that have been going through over the past few decades are the opposite of free trade, just more oxymoronic bill names to insult our intelligence. Just consider for a moment, if one wanted to have a free flow of goods why would it require additional extensive legislation?

greencmp

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by greencmp

 

Obviously its not free market if the federal reserve is the secret government and has the final say in everything. We do have free trade though and that is why we are running huge deficits especially with china.

www.census.gov...

Hmm, I do see what you mean. That is one of the unanswered questions about how to implement anti-trust with multinationals, I don't have a clear solution yet. China is effectively the biggest multi-national corporation on earth.

From the point of view of free trade, I do not believe in economic isolationism or trade wars. The FTAs that have been going through over the past few decades are the opposite of free trade, just more oxymoronic bill names to insult our intelligence. Just consider for a moment, if one wanted to have a free flow of goods why would it require additional extensive legislation?

edit on 31-10-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)

Huh? You just contradicted yourself! What do anti-trust laws have anything to do here?

We dont have a free market system in america because the federal reserve calls the shots.

BUT we do have free trade with foreign nations which is nothing less than a complete disaster to our national economy. America does not produce much anymore because the lack of tariffs means companies with enough capital can relocate to asia with plenty of cheap labor and infrastracture to be found there, to save on payroll expenses since the cost of living is very low compared to america. Chineese can live with $5 paychecks per week but americans need muuucchh more than that. Cost of living is extremely important factor in everything. This is why globalism was doomed from the start! Some people still dont get it especially the neoliberals and neoconservatives running the democrat and republican parties respectively.

EarthCitizen07

greencmp

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by greencmp

 

Obviously its not free market if the federal reserve is the secret government and has the final say in everything. We do have free trade though and that is why we are running huge deficits especially with china.

www.census.gov...

Hmm, I do see what you mean. That is one of the unanswered questions about how to implement anti-trust with multinationals, I don't have a clear solution yet. China is effectively the biggest multi-national corporation on earth.

From the point of view of free trade, I do not believe in economic isolationism or trade wars. The FTAs that have been going through over the past few decades are the opposite of free trade, just more oxymoronic bill names to insult our intelligence. Just consider for a moment, if one wanted to have a free flow of goods why would it require additional extensive legislation?

edit on 31-10-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)

Huh? You just contradicted yourself! What do anti-trust laws have anything to do here?

We dont have a free market system in america because the federal reserve calls the shots.

BUT we do have free trade with foreign nations which is nothing less than a complete disaster to our national economy. America does not produce much anymore because the lack of tariffs means companies with enough capital can relocate to asia with plenty of cheap labor and infrastracture to be found there, to save on payroll expenses since the cost of living is very low compared to america. Chineese can live with $5 paychecks per week but americans need muuucchh more than that. Cost of living is extremely important factor in everything. This is why globalism was doomed from the start! Some people still dont get it especially the neoliberals and neoconservatives running the democrat and republican parties respectively.

If we want to have minimum government we can't let the monopolies that have been created and sustained through crony legislation and the threat of state violence to stand in their current incarnations. It is not contradictory, it is a realistic assessment of one of the few quandaries associated with a transition away from cronyism and big government.

If you hadn't gathered as much, everyone here agrees that the fed must go. I suppose there might be someone who doesn't believe that, if so please feel free to chime in.

Clearly, you are uninformed as to the true nature of the 'free trade agreements' (FTAs) that have been passed. They are what is responsible for the further distillation of resources into monopolies and the encouragement of the evacuation of capital out of the country into the coffers of multi-nationals. They do not represent free trade.

I wish we could carve up China like a corporation but, alas, I think that is unworkable short of war. It will remain one of the largest monopolies in the world with total control over its employees/slaves until it collapses.

reply to post by greencmp


I am against BOTH the federal reserve and the FTAs. The federal reserve is preventing free market capitalism in america and the FTAs have been encouraging outsourcing now for decades. What does war with china have anything to do with impossing tariffs on american brand merchandise *made in china*?

Yes big business is the one taking advantage of these FTAs because they have enough capital to do so. Small business cant pack up and leave that easy. It takes an awful lot of time and money to relocate to a different country, learn the chineese laws, etc.

But you cant break up natural monopolies like microsoft, cisco networking, coca cola, etc. They have earned their dominance in the markets. What we should be going after are government monopolies like amtrak and the federal reserve. Also investigate some of the too big to fail financial investment firms like goldman sachs.

reply to post by greencmp


The historical sinkhole is ignorance of history.

If you looked at the history of market economies, there is a very clear pattern that shows that regulation of business leads to more effective, more productive, and more efficient markets.

Regulations are laws that keep corporations and other institutions in check, prevent massive wide scale fraud. These laws are as essential as laws against things like rape, robbery, and murder.

In order for markets to work effectively, we need laws in place to prevent corruption, and the idea of getting rid of these laws is extremely foolish.