Desire / attachment IS the cause of suffering... as told from the Bhavachakra

The mind likes to form and rationalize many things when deluded and ignorant, one of such things it would devise is: Suffering is not caused by desire. Suffering is caused by desire and much more, suffering is not that simple or cut and dry... which is the reasoning for this post, to help clarify how suffering arises.

The following post focuses on the 12 links in the chain of causation(Nidanas); which are found on the outer rim of the Bhavachakra.

The Bhavachakra is one of the earliest pictorial representations of the path of Buddhism; it is also known as the wheel of life:


The 12 Nidanas:

Avidya – Ignorance and delusion

Samskara – Volitional formation; consciousness directing thoughts to create and form ideas / plans

Vijnana – Volitional movement that animates the body

Namarupa - Name and form, the world as you consciously know it

Sadayatana - Sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and thought

Sparsa - Sensations of the senses: Sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and thought

Vedana - Emotions; feelings the senses bring, positive / negative / neutral

Trsna - Desire, craving to and for the things sensed and thought

Upadana - Grasping, clinging, and attachment to and for the things sensed and thought

Bhava – Continuity of life and death, conditioned by attachment to: Sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and thought, the desire for further life and sensation continues

Jati – Birth the result of karma from attachments built from previous desire and craving

Jaramarana – Old age and / or death; the inevitability of being born

For clarity of how these work together: (Out of ignorance and delusion) a person (creates and forms ideas and plans) then they (put these plans and ideas born out of ignorance and delusion into action) in the (world as they experience and know it) from them (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking about it) because they are (attached to the sensations) and (mental feelings and emotions both good and bad and indifferent) from these experiences they have (desires and cravings for) then they (grasp, cling and attach) themselves to the cycle of (life and death) being attached to all of this, there is more (birth) after (old age and death) then the cycle begins again being born back into (ignorance and delusion)

A real world example:

A person sitting around thinks or feels: "I don't have a relationship" so they rationalize why a relationship would be good or bad for them. They decide a relationship would be good, so they go out and try to find a relationship, they meet someone with all the sensations involved, if they like the over all sensations and so does the other, a relationship is formed. Out of more desire and duty they form more plans and ideas and carry them out, the other person may not like some of these plans and decide to leave, the person desiring and craving the other person grasps after them and changes their mind about the plans, the person says OK I'll stay but consult me first if you want me happy this leads to common plans and eventually they bring a child into the world, this child is now in this world from its past grasping at life, and will start forming plans out of it's and others ignorance and delusions experiencing the world as the parents did and also grow old and die, something the child itself will inevitably do at some point.

Relationship can be replaced with anything else; that has a name and form or fabrication the mind can develop, like wanting a car, or whatever else. These formations from want, desire, and attachment build karma, they disturb the present moment. But having a body and being alive, it is impossible to stop this process completely while alive, you must eat, breathe, and remove waste, in order to continue living. Training the mind to not form ideas and plans to manipulate the world that brings ourselves and others suffering will lead to non attachment to being trapped this cycle of being so one can avoid taking birth again.

This is the cycle of life known as suffering in the Buddhist context. For more information on the above or understanding the rest of the wheel and information to a that breaks the chains of causation to a way out, explore the terms: Bhavachakra, and Buddhism or click this link:
Avidyā (Buddhism)


Thank you for reading and I hope this brings clarity, illumination and less suffering to the path; you've chosen or have yet to.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


I don't want to agree, but I cannot deny that this makes a lot of sense. I think I'll settle for suggesting that the cycle you have described is inevitable. There is no way to avoid it without denying the self absolutely, which is ultimately suicidal. The only way to fight it effectively is to decide you would rather die than perpetuate the cycle. Then you follow through. I would also add that this is akin to shooting yourself in the head because you're not a dashing young man or woman with the charisma to make passersby swoon.

In short, neutralizing an imperfect asset is not the same as fixing it. You'll just spend numerous reincarnations running from something you'll never be rid of.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

 

I don't want to agree, but I cannot deny that this makes a lot of sense. I think I'll settle for suggesting that the cycle you have described is inevitable. There is no way to avoid it without denying the self absolutely, which is ultimately suicidal. The only way to fight it effectively is to decide you would rather die than perpetuate the cycle. Then you follow through.

edit on 18-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

The path is not morbid it is a way out, the cycle of suffering is what is unavoidable without enlightenment and what I have presented. Yes it's horrible and morbid and the last thing any one would want to live, but we all do live it unless we escape the cycle. Fortunately, there is a path out the 8 fold path, ignorance of it will only keep the wheel turning and freedom from it impossible. Suicide just starts a new birth because desire, clinging and attachment has not ended, in committing suicide the conditions of the next birth may be more unfortunate than this one, fortunately in this one you already see the path. Fortunately, you can live a peaceful and happy life without clinging to anything that arises by being in the present moment and understanding what that really means. Enjoy it when it arises don't cling or chase after it when it goes or manipulate another moment to try and make it into a past moment, if you cling and desire and are attached to anything lay it down.

Things arise and pass on their own, without your help, from just being alive, if they are disturbing why are they disturbing? If they are pleasing why are they pleasing? If you want more or less of it why are you wanting more or less of it? Knowing this is knowing oneself, knowing oneself is to understand how you continually cause your own suffering and spread it to others allowing a way for it to come to an end, it also and gives insight how others create their suffering and spread it to others. Form things that bring peace and happiness to yourself and others if you must form anything avoiding extremes, when not forming calmly abide.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

 

I don't want to agree, but I cannot deny that this makes a lot of sense. I think I'll settle for suggesting that the cycle you have described is inevitable. There is no way to avoid it without denying the self absolutely, which is ultimately suicidal. The only way to fight it effectively is to decide you would rather die than perpetuate the cycle. Then you follow through. I would also add that this is akin to shooting yourself in the head because you're not a dashing young man or woman with the charisma to make passersby swoon.

In short, neutralizing an imperfect asset is not the same as fixing it. You'll just spend numerous reincarnations running from something you'll never be rid of.

edit on 18-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I disagree entirely.

If you go within and start becoming "mindful" using a vast array of techniques left behind by the various buddhas, you eventually shift permanently into Observer mode, detached from thoughts/ego/thinker of thoughts.

That observer is then stabilized for an X period of time, giving you a platform that is beyond the mind.

Eventually this Observer, as both the center of Consciousness and the space in which it exists, eventually collapses and merges with the source of Consciousness, which is infinite and all pervading. From there on out, its a matter of detaching, over time, from all the arisings of ignorance.

People take the word "Enlightenment," especially in the context of Buddhism, and create these projections and falsities that Enlightenment is super impossible, rare, and maybe one person out of a billion will reach it. But its really not at all like that. Its already in you, easily accessed simply by logic, reason deduction, and practice.

Here is a method that can give you access to Enlightenment (At least the beginning stages of directly experiencing Oneness) within about 15-30 days of daily practice (anyone an do this, even somebody who is not too bright) :


Mahasi Style Noting

BigBrotherDarkness
The mind likes to form and rationalize many things when deluded and ignorant, one of such things it would devise is: Suffering is not caused by desire. Suffering is caused by desire and much more, suffering is not that simple or cut and dry... which is the reasoning for this post, to help clarify how suffering arises.

therefore, by your own statement, the mind is the cause of suffering and desire. suffering and desire are rationalizations.
the 4 Noble Truths:
1. Existence is suffering/anxienty/stress/unease/disease/dissatisfaction (dukkha in Sanskrit)
2. Dukkha is cause cased by ignorance of #1.
3. there is a way out of that catch-22
4. that way is the 8fold path.

Buddhism isn't about suffering- it's about you. literally.

just so I don't appear "cryptic".........................


suffering is the result of thinking that permanence exists. I know that isn't going to go over well in the West, but it's true. Dukkha is caused by clinging, wanting things to last forever, etc. If one identifies with all those senses you listed, or with the material world (in the sense of being "attached" to a table that, though it's held together with nails and glue (hopefully) it is at the same time decomposing- the wood, the nails, the glue. maybe on a microscopic level, but you can't really say its the exact same table it was 10 seconds ago, and eventually, maybe 100 years later, that table will be firewood. relationships are like tables- they both have 4 legs. or more.
so anyhow, back to "suffering". here's where it gets interesting and everything Im going to write comes from Nagarjuna (you can look him up) some called him the 2nd Buddha as taught to me by my teacher over 2 years, and his teacher was Geshe Sopa, the Junior Tutor of the current Dalai Lama. so here goes-

Emptiness. The Final Frontier (just kidding trekkies). I would guess that most of the US would think of the half-empty/half-full glass psychological cliché of the 70's. though I could describe the emptiness inherent in the glass/water situation that isn't what "emptiness" means in Buddhism. Yes- I know it's not "suffering" but I'm getting to that so please be patient. In Mayahana (Great Vehicle) Buddhism- not the monks in Thailand who preserve the complete original tradition of Siddharta Guatama, but rather the entire accumulation of all Buddhist thought throughout history- "emptiness" means that an object of the mind does not have its own inherent existence. That table did not make itself and- if you want to get mystical- isn't it only a "table" because that's what we learned it to be? Ultimately, the table does not exist because Ultimately, nothing exists- like I said before, all objects have no inherent existence. they are breaking down all the time into their atomic components (Entropy) and can not be truthfully called "permanent" by anyone but the man trying to sell it. so we've got "suffering" and "non-suffering" (personally I prefer "disease"/"ease" since it is similar to "salvation" and implies a sense of health) and neither one Ultimately exists. not even non-suffering (yeah. wrap your head around that).
Here comes Buddhism to the rescue. though with knowledge can come more suffering.....
Buddhism tells us that the mind is the problem and that it is limited by the senses and its ability to know nothing more than it can, which isn't much if you think echolocation, telepathy and other cool dolphins traits we don't even have in which to process "reality". so "reality" doesn't exist either, btw. anything that is a concept/word/thought....any GD "thing" doesn't "exist" on the level of Ultimate Truth -talking about emptiness and obviously things beyond the senses which themselves are based on impermanence. Impermanence being the lack of inherent existence of any object.
"things" are the result of karma (action). In one worldview, someone might say that every material and even non-material thing are illusions because they don't exist, they are were in fact brought into "being" by karma- you know, like eating, breathing, talking- every action (karma) ever taken or will be taken. There's no escape except to destroy the Self. the result is called "Nirvana" which translates from Sanskrit as "extinction of the Self" like the blowing out of a candle flame.
They say the grass is always greener but if that's the case, where would faith come into play?

hopefully this has cleared up and confused any questions you may have had.

reply to post by IandEye


My apologies if the wording caused what was said to fail comprehension; and appear as if I was asking a question needing answers. The mind is simply the mind, it is filled with various phenomena, where ever it is there it is. The path is very clear with no questions needing asked and none needing answered I asked my last 7 years ago and all became resolved. If the mind causes suffering use conscious awareness to place it, this is meditation(mind training).

The OP is stating that suffering is an amalgamation caused by many things, an ill directed mind is most certainly the cause of much suffering... but not the only cause! It is simply; one part in the whole chain of suffering. Impermanence is not the only reason for suffering either; if you take all things to be impermanent, that also includes impermanence itself. It is a paradox and in a world dualism many a paradox can be found... impermanence is a koan; solve it.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post; as I am sure your clarification of dukkha will be of service to many.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


It seems to me that you are encouraging us to let go of out attachments and be attached to nothing. I disagree with that philosophy for the reasons I described in my previous post. I feel the more practical approach would be to realize that attachment leads to suffering, and suffering leads to experience. Experience is the ammunition for achieving a successful relationship. I feel that your mistake is in deciding that suffering is a bad thing. It is not. It is just as useful as any other state of being - by which I mean that every experience, emotion and condition you may encounter is just as useful as how you apply it. Perhaps suffering seems worthless to you because your skills in applying it are worthless.

Learn to apply your suffering appropriately and it will become a tool by which to garner the experience you need for a successful relationship with the world.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

 

It seems to me that you are encouraging us to let go of out attachments and be attached to nothing. I disagree with that philosophy for the reasons I described in my previous post. I feel the more practical approach would be to realize that attachment leads to suffering, and suffering leads to experience. Experience is the ammunition for achieving a successful relationship. I feel that your mistake is in deciding that suffering is a bad thing. It is not. It is just as useful as any other state of being - by which I mean that every experience, emotion and condition you may encounter is just as useful as how you apply it. Perhaps suffering seems worthless to you because your skills in applying it are worthless.

Learn to apply your suffering appropriately and it will become a tool by which to garner the experience you need for a successful relationship with the world.

edit on 18-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Not seem... unattached with right understanding; is exactly what I am saying.

Of course suffering and attachment are useful; if they did not exist what would there to escape from? You gain wisdom from suffering and attachment. Yet how much poison or how many lifetimes do you need to become dispassionate and look for a way out? Life does not end at the end of suffering during a lifetime, suffering does. But it only does when you have experienced enough of it to gain the wisdom and understanding to untangle yourself from the wheel of life. Relationships have have way more understanding when your suffering is understood and off the table, because you have the wisdom and insight to ease others sufferings if you choose to form such ideas, you cannot remove suffering from another but you can make their suffering in the moment less, for their suffering to be removed completely they have to take up the task to remove it.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


Again, you're talking about reaching the point where suffering is flat-out eliminated. Gone. Nonexistent. Suffering will always exist, and there's no point to whining about it. Take it, learn from it, and apply those lessons so that suffering becomes a trial by which you reach greater heights. When you work out, you hurt and you sweat. Your body suffers from the strain. But it is rewarded when great physical prowess is demanded of you and you perform well enough to accomplish what you want to. Suffering gives you the emotional flexibility to dance with life's joys and hardships.

There is no getting rid of suffering. There is no abolishing it. There is only using it to hone your edges until you gleam.

BigBrotherDarkness
A person sitting around thinks or feels: "I don't have a relationship" so they rationalize why a relationship would be good or bad for them. They decide a relationship would be good, so they go out and try to find a relationship, they meet someone with all the sensations involved, if they like the over all sensations and so does the other, a relationship is formed. Out of more desire and duty they form more plans and ideas and carry them out, the other person may not like some of these plans and decide to leave, the person desiring and craving the other person grasps after them and changes their mind about the plans,...

It's not the desire that caused the problem. It's the need to control and have that caused the problem.

People do not like "desire", they only like to "have".

They want a relationship with the person and they want to get rid of the desire - so now they are actually trying to manipulate the person to come back to them so that they can "have" the person to themselves and the "desire" will be gone.

Here is an example:

If someone wanted cookies but it was late at night and the store was closed. They can be happy that they have a desire, that they still have their own preferences. If they rob the store to get a pack of cookies, it's not the "desire" that's the problem - it's their 'need to have'. They could have just stayed with the desire being happy that they wanted more for themselves and that they have their unique combination of desire - but instead they wanted to get rid of the desire because they didn't like it so they broke into the store to get the cookies and got themselves into trouble.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


A relationship caused you pain to feel ugly, unwanted and suicidal,... yes; I agree... you do need to move on and experience more of what life has to offer, and more clarity will indeed come to you.

Reflecting yourself on me allows me to see you clearly as holding up a mirror, good luck over coming what you feel cannot be overcome.

reply to post by arpgme


For control there must be a desire to control, for a desire to control there must be attachment, and where there is attachment lay it down.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

A relationship caused you pain to feel ugly, unwanted and suicidal,... yes; I agree... you do need to move on and experience more of what life has to offer, and more clarity will indeed come to you.

Reflecting yourself on me allows me to see you clearly as holding up a mirror, good luck over coming what you feel cannot be overcome.

Woah, that's not what I said at all. And I don't appreciate you twisting it around on me like that when you know that's not what I said.

This is what I said:

It seems to me that you are encouraging us to let go of our attachments and be attached to nothing. I disagree with that philosophy for the reasons I described in my previous post. I feel the more practical approach would be to realize that attachment leads to suffering, and suffering leads to experience. Experience is the ammunition for achieving a successful relationship. I feel that your mistake is in deciding that suffering is a bad thing. It is not. It is just as useful as any other state of being - by which I mean that every experience, emotion and condition you may encounter is just as useful as how you apply it. Perhaps suffering seems worthless to you because your skills in applying it are worthless.

Learn to apply your suffering appropriately and it will become a tool by which to garner the experience you need for a successful relationship with the world.

Don't put words in my mouth.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Every post you made shows where the location of your mind... suicide, relationships, suffering issues, redirection of advice you should take but give instead. Now your mind is on anger... where will it be next are you watching it move? When you post I watch it move even if you cannot see it yourself.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

Every post you made shows where the location of your mind... suicide, relationships, suffering issues, redirection of advice you should take but give instead.

You don't know me. Don't even pretend to know what was in my head when I posted on this thread. Because you don't know. And you never will. You can only trust that I am being completely honest with you when I say that your assumptions are completely incorrect. And I am being honest when I say that. I assure you. I have no reason to lie about that.

Where I'm coming from is simple: you can choose to let a spilled glass of milk ruin your day, or you can choose to learn how you handle the glass next time so it won't spill. Attachment leads to suffering leads to experience leads to skill. Skill in attaining and maintaining a healthy relationship with whatever you are attached to.

If you choose to not be attached, then you have nothing to life for. So now you can stop assuming what I'm thinking because I just told you exactly what's going through my head as I type this.

Now your mind is on anger... where will it be next are you watching it move? When you post I watch it move even if you cannot see it yourself

Don't kid yourself. You are intentionally attempting to inflict suffering in order to make a point, but I will prove my own point and take a positive lesson from this experience. That way, I will be better equipped to handle it next time I encounter someone like you.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You seem to feel you have it figured out for yourself; the skin is a bit thin leading to anger and self protection first, but otherwise your perspective is clear in the end. You will find life has much more quality to switch your perspective instead of coming to anger first. Your emotions are controlling you when it should be the other way around. Anger first then a logical rationalization second... not a healthy combination but very common. Logical rationalization first, through wisdom and understanding then; anger nor a reason to defend the ego construct will ever arise... your life will become more stable and at ease if; you can put aside that anger, you're possibly still clinging too, and take this and the OP to heart.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

You seem to feel you have it figured out for yourself; the skin is a bit thin leading to anger and self protection first, but otherwise your perspective is clear in the end. You will find life has much more quality to switch your perspective instead of coming to anger first. Your emotions are controlling you when it should be the other way around. Anger first then a logical rationalization second... not a healthy combination but very common. Logical rationalization first, through wisdom and understanding then; anger nor a reason to defend the ego construct will ever arise... your life will become more stable and at ease if; you can put aside that anger, you're possibly still clinging too, and take this and the OP to heart.

But most importantly, you could never be wrong, right?

/sarcasm

Of course suffering and attachment are useful; if they did not exist what would there to escape from?

Apparently, you believe life is all about the need to escape something and achieve perfect happiness with an absolute lack of suffering. My belief is that we should embrace it instead of escaping it, and achieve perfect happiness through effective coexistence with suffering and the numerous ways we can harness suffering constructively by learning from our experiences in desire and attachment.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


So you troll Buddhist threads; to make sure your opinion of taking the blue pill is better; and gets heard... so how's that been working out for you?

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

So you troll Buddhist threads; to make sure your opinion of taking the blue pill is better; and gets heard... so how's that been working out for you?

I'm not trolling. I'm being honest. And it seems to me that the point here is simple: you're not here to discuss, you are here to preach. Fortunately, I am here to challenge you and instigate a judicious exploration of the subject. Whether you like it or not. You don't have to agree with me, I'm just demonstrating an alternative perspective. It is a public discussion, is it not?

Attachment is the cause of suffering, and suffering is necessary in order to learn. Ergo, attachment is an educational device. That's the point I am making here, but you prefer to attack me personally rather than refute my point. Very poor form for a Buddhist.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You made that point, many posts ago and I agreed... go out get more experience, indulge all those cravings and desires you want... if you don't you'll always hang onto a regret and stay away from the path. Fine and dandy like cotton candy, after awhile a nagging emptiness will arise from all this mindless self indulgence and a dispassion for it. Some leaving that extreme, go to the other extreme and abstain completely. Right understanding finds balance and the middle way... if you were pointing to the middle way good, if you were pointing at extremes that's where the suffering comes from, walking the middle where is suffering to be found?

The OP was intended to disseminate information; another poster believes desire does not lead to suffering; has a whole other thread on the topic. So yes you are correct that in the purpose of this thread was to teach... if you find the subject matter debatable good. I'm happy for it to turn it into a debate thread, if that's what you desire it to be.

I have other things that require my attention; so if you wish to debate the topic perhaps someone will come along and indulge you. If you wish to debate it with myself personally, even though I have already agreed with you twice; especially when it experience is gained in accordance with, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration because it leads to right knowledge and right liberation... I may be on at a later time to do so.

Until then take care