Meditation - What's the Point?

RicketyCricket
reply to post by BardingTheBard

 

Unrestricted contemplation... Wow. That's something to wrap my head around. No limits on thought? I like this.

I use unrestricted contemplation to see myself for who I really am. Okay.

I ask others for their experience to draw connections for myself. I know that there is no one way to meditate. To each his own, as it were. I ask why they meditate. I ask how they meditate. I ask what they do while meditating.

I ask these things to see where I am in my meditation, and to see if I can improve my meditations, so less time will be wasted on doing nothing (the actual nothing of not meditating and reading things about it) rather than spending precious time trying to understand the goal or purpose.

It was not presented to me as an end result, rather as a vehicle to get my head where I want it.



I may not necessarily need to visit other worlds and visit other beings, but I definitely not opposed to it. That is somewhere I would like to take this conversation, maybe in a few posts, but I would really like to call this out now. HOW DO I DO THIS?

I would suggest that once you have mastered a simple 'stillness' meditative state or have advanced into the blackness the emptiness, then if you want to venture outward please take instruction from a shaman. I only say this because I went beyond the emptiness and beyond and I wasn't quite sure how to interpret my thoughts/experiences where when I recently went on a journey with a shaman's guidance at least I could relay my experiences and receive a meaningful explanation. Gook luck and remember to always keep your golden cord attached.

reply to post by rogert4

I'd say that my experience of my experience of some form is just as valid as your experience of your experience of the form. One may think they have the truth of it, perhaps because they have more 'agreement' from others who share a similar perspective.

The respective validity would depend on which of our experiences more closely conformed to reality. Yes, I believe that there is such a thing as objective reality, as well as a human perception of it that most closely approaches what we call truth. There are various tests we can apply to help us identify what this is, so we don't have to put it up to majority vote.

The goal of enlightenment shows up for me as a bit elitist, a bit of an ego trip.

I completely agree. People who proclaim their enlightenment come across as self-satisfied bumptious and blind. Then again, they would seem like that to us unenlightened types, wouldn't they?

Personally, after even the most profound altered state experience, the dog still needs feeding and the lawn cutting.

You hit the nail on the head here.

Not that kind of energy

There isn't any other kind.

Astyanax
reply to post by rogert4

Not that kind of energy

There isn't any other kind.

Well if you were here with me in the room, I could push a thread of 'the other kind' of energy through your body, say in through your kidneys and then up your spine to the crown of your head and out, and if your sensitivity is sufficiently developed, you will feel it quite clearly.

If we did this exercise and we both feel the same, or similar sensations, is that a group hallucination and therefore not 'real' or is it something worth labeling as some aspect of reality?

As you said, experience leads to a sense of knowing. Your statement that there isn't any other kind of energy, (other than presumably that which can be measured on a physical instrument - sorry for making an assumption but your statement was brief and open to interpretation), shows up in my world as naieve.

Unless you are experientially aware of the 'energy' I speak of and have another take on it that makes the label 'energy' invalid according to your rules

Can you feel and manipulate energy inside or outside your body? Do you have voluntary control over any of your ANS? These for me are valuable abilities to develop, and they really aren't that difficult, and it's fun!

reply to post by RicketyCricket


why meditate when you can pray.

reply to post by spartacus699


"Praying is talking to god, meditating is listening"

reply to post by rogert4


meditating is dumb

spartacus699
reply to post by RicketyCricket

 

why meditate when you can pray.

Whats the difference? Why do you even join this thread if you have nothing real to add?

Back on topic - I meditate mostly listening binaural beats, or just some random meditation video from youtube. You don't need to read anything, just find out for yourself. It's not that hard.
Plus I discovered that I-Doser helps a lot, but we are all different.

The point is - Not to fall a sleep.
Namaste.

RicketyCricket
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

The amygdala. Why would anyone want to overload it?

You do not want todo it.

Below is how I understand it but I am not an expert like the you tube video I found after it happened to me. An overload from feeling this kind of fear makes the rewards system change so that bodily fear becomes rewarded instead and you feel good. The overload is an extreme outcry of need. And intense need is a very powerful way to get synchronicity working.

People both on this side came and gave help the same day and the other side followed 4 days after and the change was dramatic.

Thinking is Meditation.....Right?

reply to post by rogert4

I could push a thread of 'the other kind' of energy through your body... and... you will feel it quite clearly.

I don't doubt that I would feel something, but it would be an internal, physiological reaction to an induced mental state. No different from the way a scary story sends shivers up my spine or evocative music makes my forearm hairs stand on end. Yes, these reactions take energy, but it's energy of the ordinary, physical sort, generated and expended by my own body. Nothing passes between you and me except information — nothing detectable, at any rate.

If we did this exercise and we both feel the same, or similar sensations, is that a group hallucination and therefore not 'real' or is it something worth labeling as some aspect of reality?

The two explanations are not exclusive. Neither of them invokes the paranormal. Our feelings and sensations in such a situation are the same or similar because they are physiological reactions excited by the same stimulus. Tap anybody's knee in just the right way and they'll kick. Shine a light into anybody's eye and the iris will contract. Give anybody a shot of adrenaline and their pulse-rate will increase. This is the same sort of thing.

As you said, experience leads to a sense of knowing.

One that is sometimes illusory. Oenophiles think their experience enables them to distinguish between a grand cru and an inexpensive supermarket wine, but blind tests prove they can't. Did God really speak to the prophet Ezekiel? Ezekiel himself was clearly convinced of it, but I think the rest of us are entitled to doubt his story. Experience is an unreliable guide to truth; one needs an objective reference of some sort.

Unless you are experientially aware of the 'energy' I speak of and have another take on it that makes the label 'energy' invalid according to your rules.

It isn't experiential awareness that would convince me, but a repeatable, falsifiable demonstration of some sort. A scientific experiment, that is to say, in which all possible interpretations of the results except the one being investigated are ruled out by experimental design.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about; since you're in the UK, you may already have seen it on the telly. The paranormal faculty being tested here is dowsing. Watch for yourself what happens.


The 'psychic' Uri Geller (recently in the news because of a publicity stunt involving a pillar-box embedded in a bridge pylon) was once asked to repeat his spoon-bending feats under controlled conditions. This is what happened (this one is a bit long, I'm afraid; just under fifteen minutes, but worth watching):


If some manifestation of the 'energy' of which you speak is subjected to such a test, under controlled conditions, and repeatedly passes, I'll willingly admit of its existence. Until then, all opinions are up for grabs — mine as well as yours. Though I have to say history is on my side.

reply to post by Astyanax


Thank you for Informing us Meditation and thinking aren't real. Was having trouble believing!!

Astyanax
reply to post by rogert4

 

I could push a thread of 'the other kind' of energy through your body... and... you will feel it quite clearly.

I don't doubt that I would feel something, but it would be an internal, physiological reaction to an induced mental state. No different from the way a scary story sends shivers up my spine or evocative music makes my forearm hairs stand on end.

Your response here indicates you have not had that experience, yet you also claim to know what would be its cause?!?

For the rest of your post, I think Sheldrake's work would give you more satisfaction than I can. He has plenty of links to peer reviewed scientific stuff regarding the paranormal on his site, plus his own personally funded experiments.

Astyanax
I don't doubt that I would feel something, but it would be an internal, physiological reaction to an induced mental state.

rogert4
Your response here indicates you have not had that experience, yet you also claim to know what would be its cause?!?

Sure. I haven't experienced herpes, either, but I know what causes it.

The key thought is 'I would feel something'. If I feel something, that is by definition a physiological reaction. If it was caused by some form of communication by you, the intermediary process would indeed have to be an induced mental state. Nothing controversial there. The question is what caused the mental state. I say it's information. You say it's energy. I say I'd need empirical evidence of that. You say Sheldrake can provide it. I say uh-huh.

I don't think either of us is going to shift from our respective positions, but I've had fun debating them. Cheers!

Astyanax

I don't think either of us is going to shift from our respective positions, but I've had fun debating them. Cheers!

Me too

Feels like you want to take this in a direction that quickly loses interest for me ...

I mentioned Sheldrake really for his work on telepathy. What about remote sensing of being stared at? Doesn't that offer more of a challenge to 'know how it works' than what causes herpes?

religious feeling is not invisible. The common thread among mystical and spiritual practices is that while people are engaged in them, the lobes of their brain can be seen working together to create a powerful emotional experience. “When we looked at [subjects'] brain scans, instead of the frontal lobes going up, the frontal lobes actually went down [in blood flow]. Which makes sense in the context of what they are describing is happening to them,” Newberg explains. “They don’t feel that they’re purposely making it [happen]. They feel that they are being basically overcome by the experience.”

…

“… It certainly looks like the way the brain is put together makes it very easy for human beings to have religious and spiritual experiences.”

It happens whether you a a Buddhists monk or are praying.

www.patheos.com...

What he's found is surprising: religious feeling is not invisible. The common thread among mystical and spiritual practices is that while people are engaged in them, the lobes of their brain can be seen working together to create a powerful emotional experience. "When we looked at [subjects'] brain scans, instead of the frontal lobes going up, the frontal lobes actually went down [in blood flow]. Which makes sense in the context of what they are describing is happening to them," Newberg explains. "They don't feel that they're purposely making it [happen]. They feel that they are being basically overcome by the experience."

He believes that what subjects describe as their interaction with God is a shutting down of their concentrative, willful attention in order to allow this experience of transcendence to happen. "For them it's the spirit of God which is moving through them. I can't prove that or disprove that on the basis of a brain scan, but I can see the changes that are going on in the brain while they're engaged in this very, very powerful and very deep spiritual practice... It certainly looks like the way the brain is put together makes it very easy for human beings to have religious and spiritual experiences."

The question, then, is not whether we're wired for what we've come to call spiritual experiences exist, but how a tendency towards the transcendent makes us better adapted to live and survive in the world around us. What is the evolutionary purpose of belief?
bigthink.com...
A hint lies in the fact that it's likely the repetition rather than the content of a ritual that makes it effective. It doesn't seem to matter whether a person chants or recites a verse or thinks a specific thought; a transcendent or meditative state is achieved through practice, strengthening connections in the brain around a particular idea or task. Religious practices may in fact be useful in a secular context. Whatever they mean to you, there's evidence that simple rituals like breathing deeply when you're stressed can improve your mental health and help you cope with the world, even if you're skeptical about whether there's a divine plan behind it.

Eventually every breathing moment is a prayer

reply to post by stormdancer777

Eventually every breathing moment is a prayer

I think you have touched on the true meaning of spirituality. What you have said here is life-affirming, and beautiful.

reply to post by stormdancer777

religious feeling is not invisible.

Neither is any other kind of feeling. All emotional states are related to brain activity, as I pointed out earlier.

It certainly looks like the way the brain is put together makes it very easy for human beings to have religious and spiritual experiences.

The way the brain is put together makes it very easy for human beings to suffer migraine headaches, epileptic seizures, delusions, paranoid episodes and concussion, too.

Eventually every breathing moment is a prayer.

Or a fart. Depends on your point of view.

reply to post by Astyanax


www.youtube.com/watch?v=jocI_R8lMpM

It's interesting to me how brain waves change depending upon your intent within meditation, as per the study below.

"Previous studies have shown that theta waves indicate deep relaxation and occur more frequently in highly experienced meditation practitioners. The source is probably frontal parts of the brain, which are associated with monitoring of other mental processes."

www.sciencedaily.com...

reply to post by RicketyCricket


Meditation (sanskrit. jhana/dhyana), is about realizing your Minds true nature. The one you had before even your present parents were born (ref. Chan masters like Hui Neng, Huang Po or japanese Hakuin).

This Mind you seek to experience in meditation is completely pure, free from angst, form, sensation, desires or anything your ordinary monkey mind might imagine. in certain buddhist scriptures it is best described as the imageless Mind. Those who come to realize this mind are called bodhisattvas, and when realizing it fully, Buddhas, eg. the ones fully awakened to pure Mind.

Meditation , or dhyana, serves here as a direct path towards that awesome experience. There is of course certain procedures to consider in meditating the right way, but I am not your zen (dhyana) teacher. You have to find one of your own and hopefully a genuine one and not a twerp that wears robes and pretends to be a good guru (99% are fakes).

Happy hunting.