Dishonest Creationist Tactics= Bad Religion

stormson
reply to post by MrConspiracy

 

you dont know what theory means. how cute.

see, you gather together a bunch of facts, then you form a theory to explain these facts.

a theory can never be a fact, it is only an explanation of the facts presented at the time. when new facts come along and changes the picture, then the theory to explain these facts must also change.

think of it this way. you have a bunch of puzzle pieces. these are facts. you put them together, but are missing quite a bit, so you do your best to explain what the picture is based on the info you have. you see a mess of hair, like a pony's tail, so your theory is that the picture is of a horse. then you get new pieces that show stripes, so you change your theory to say its a zebra. this is a never ending process.

and that is the difference between a fact and a theory.

Don't try patronise me and say the word "cute".... it goes right through me.

If i'm not mistaken a theory means :

"an idea used to account for a situation"

And idea is not a fact. So you don't "gather a bunch of facts" you gather ideas to try and explain something basically in to a theory.

I really didn't enjoy your tone and i'd suggest learning how to interact with people before replying to anyone again. Just and idea

reply to post by MrConspiracy


Unfortunately, you are mistaken . . . sorry.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.

Linky

The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
• Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
• Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
• Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

Only a Theory?

Ok i'm going to make a general reply to this thread because i'm bored of trying to defend myself against those who categorically hate the idea of Intelligent Design.

Here's my take on it. Take it for what you want.

Do i have faith in intelligent design? Not fully perhaps.. but to a large extent, yes. For me personally i do not believe everything we see is a lucky accident that is solely being held up by the evolution of life.

Am i being arrogant for not 100% believing in evolution? You can decide that. I have NEVER said evolution is wrong. I've just said that it's not a solid fact and that it can't explain everything.

I don't really enjoy being attacked for having a belief in intelligent design.. I think it's a little uncalled for. So what if you don't believe in it.. I never came here to MAKE anyone believe in ID. I'm well aware of the science behind evolution and this is what you need to know.

I AM WELL AWARE IT IS A PRETTY LOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR MANY THINGS

Ok? I'm not saying evolution doesn't/didn't happen. I'm just saying it doesn't explain everything. And that there are a LOT of gaps that can't be filled right now. Will they be filled eventually? Maybe... who knows. But until the day someone can show me that there is no design, life after death.. or... anything of the sort! i'll continue to hold my faith. And it's not a blind faith... so don't try accuse me of such.

I base my faith on everything around me. I see the wonder of this planet and of this universe. And i think it is insane to be SO arrogant to suggest that we know how life came to be and what that means.... we know so little! So i'm sorry if i have faith in something outside of our understanding. I just think there is a much bigger picture than the portion we humans can see.

i have an opinion.. Is that all ok with you?

solomons path
reply to post by MrConspiracy

 

Unfortunately, you are mistaken . . . sorry.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.

Linky

The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
• Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
• Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
• Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

Only a Theory?

Proposition - A statement or assertion that expresses a judgment or opinion.

So.. from what you posted i read it as.

A statement or assertion that expresses a judgment or opinion used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena. - It's the opinion part that bothers me...

Anyway..... Read my latest posts. I'm not an evolution hater so you can jump of my back when ya ready

MrConspiracy
Anyway..... Read my latest posts. I'm not an evolution hater so you can jump of my back when ya ready

Maybe you should take another look at the topic of the thread?

You come into a thread about dishonest creationist tactics with one of the most common, "evolution is just a theory" and get upset when you get called out on it.

daskakik

MrConspiracy
Anyway..... Read my latest posts. I'm not an evolution hater so you can jump of my back when ya ready

Maybe you should take another look at the topic of the thread?

You come into a thread about dishonest creationist tactics with one of the most common, "evolution is just a theory" and expect not to be called out? Then you get upset when you do.

Called out? Discussion perhaps.. but called out, really? Like i did something wrong? I came here because i was interested to see the discussion. When i see a post full to brim of those who are against ID and practically shouting "here here!" to the original post... i just thought i'd voice my opinion. Clearly it was an extremely unpopular one.

I'm not upset. Just... my fingers get tired of defending myself!!

All the best

MrConspiracy
Once again... that's speculation.

Feel free to prove that. Your opinion doesn't matter.

reply to post by MrConspiracy

But until the day someone can show me that there is no design, life after death.. or... anything of the sort! i'll continue to hold my faith. And it's not a blind faith... so don't try accuse me of such.

What? What are you talking about? You fail at demonstrating a knowledge of what a scientific theory is, and now everyone's attacking you? I could be far more unpleasant than simply pointing out flaws in your thinking... which is the topic of the thread.

Please think really hard about what you mean by "design" and don't bundle evolution and life after death together.

iwilliam

Klassified
Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't evolution address origins of species? It has nothing to do with the origins of life. That's a totally different topic. Now abiogenesis vs. creationism would make more sense.

There are plenty of creationists who believe evolution is the process god used to create life.

edit on 9/15/2013 by Klassified because: spelling

edit on 9/15/2013 by Klassified because: clarity

Exactly this. I was going to comment that I do not believe "creationism" and evolution are opposing and mutually exclusive concepts.

Believing in some kind of higher power, or guiding/driving intelligence, myself, I can easily see how evolution could be a tool of god. It's a shame that not every religious-minded person can see this as easily as myself.


I think much of the argument, and what the OP is talking about arises from the practice of biblical literalism. It is biblical literalists who try to claim that the earth is 6,000 years old and the concept of evolution is an affront to god. And IMHO those interested in debating creation should learn to recognize and distinguish this group.

Great post!

Everyone... read this. It's basically what i believe.

MrConspiracy
Called out? Discussion perhaps.. but called out, really?

Yes. The OP made a statement and you came in challanging it:

Evolution is a theory.. but yet, because it's based in science it apparently has more validity and people actually take it as FACT.

Now you want to play it off like you just wanted to chat about it.

Wertdagf
reply to post by MrConspiracy

 

But until the day someone can show me that there is no design, life after death.. or... anything of the sort! i'll continue to hold my faith. And it's not a blind faith... so don't try accuse me of such.

What? What are you talking about? You fail at demonstrating a knowledge of what a scientific theory is, and now everyone's attacking you? I could be far more unpleasant than simply pointing out flaws in your thinking... which is the topic of the thread.

Please think really hard about what you mean by "design" and don't bundle evolution and life after death together.

edit on 16-9-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Flaws in my thinking...? i'm sorry for having an opinion that you can't understand/believe. It's not my thinking process that's flawed. It's the fact, on a post that's about creationism nobody else is allowed to say they perhaps accommodate the idea of some intelligent design without being, apparently, "called out"

I bundled them together because, to me, they fall hand in hand... maybe not to you. That's ok.

I shouldn't have voiced my opinion. Because apparently here you have to defend it until your fingers run out of energy. Thanks for being civil, as most people have. And i understand you want cold hard facts to back up my faith. But when it comes to faith, especially to do with the origins of life.. i'm going to have a tough time by myself.

Sorry.. but all the best.

reply to post by flyingfish


This thread could of easily been dishonest evolutionist=bad science.

NoRulesAllowed

greavsie1971
We should believe what ever sits right in our hearts and respect others that do so too.

There are no "multiple truths" that sit right for one and wrong for the other.

The "truth" is also not what sits "right in our hearts"..aka is simply based on emotions on subjective views. (IRONICALLY, that is often the case because we are humans. It's a BAD human trait.). This is why we have problems on this planet, such as racism, intolerance etc.etc.. which are all SUBJECTIVE "truths" because they "sit right" for an individual person.

Nazism, racism etc.. all "sit right" for someone...does not make it more true or more valid.

HOWEVER, you are right with your assumption that to a certain extent anyone should have the right to believe what they want and this belief should also be untouched. Nothing against it as long as I am not forced to "take on" someone else belief against my own. (This also happen frequently).

The problem with Creationism is that creationists for some decades very actively ATTEMPT to set their own belief system equal with science. It went so far that school books must have a disclaimer that evolution theory is only a "theory" and giving people the illusion that this religious faith is equal and can be simply swapped out in place of school science. I have a BIG problem with that. Church people can stay in their church and can believe what they want, but there are clearly attempts which go way beyond that. And I am a very, very strong supporter that science, politics and religion MUST be separate and not (as seen in the last years) trying to fuse those them together like in the effing MIDDLE AGES. Thank you - NO!

edit on 72013RuSundayAmerica/Chicago20PMSundaySunday by NoRulesAllowed because: (no reason given)

What school did you go to. We were told evolution was fact and no other. So it does work both ways. The truth is only the truth when proven to be so. Nothing has been proven. We all have our ideas and we should respect these ideas of others. Nobody can force you to believe anything no matter how hard they try. Why let them affect you.
We can share ideas and try to understand why others believe the way they do, but getting angry because someone does not believe as you do (not saying you do this but some people of varying beliefs do), is bad and quite simply not accepting of others. Just like racism, and any other form of discrimination. It should not be tolerated by modern society. Unfortunately it happens a lot.

If you think people are lying, dont listen to them. Its easy. Why let someone else control your emotions. Dont let others get you angry like the OP. Take control of your own emotions.

Above all, respect others for their beliefs. It's a great gift that gets much respect. I dont think individual people (governments, schools, scientists and religous fundamentalists aside) neccesarily force beliefs on others, they just try to explain their beliefs to get understanding, nothing more. Nobody can force a belief on anyone. We believe what we believe. Simple again. I was taught evolution at school, I dont believe it is necessarily true though. Im not angry about it. Im sure my teacher had no agenda. It just doesn't sit right in my heart. That is cool, not a problem to me or anyone else. No reason for any ridicule, anger or any other negative emotion from me or anyone else.

That is why I worry about the OP. Very negative. A strong mind would not get that way. There is no reason for anyone to get so negative about something that 'just is'. No matter what you believe. The world is not perfect. We should not get upset about it as that just makes our lives less enjoyable. I do the same too. I guess we all do. It's easy to spot it in others. Not so much ourselves.

reply to post by PsykoOps


Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on, they are meaningless.

Consider me belittled.

daskakik

MrConspiracy
Called out? Discussion perhaps.. but called out, really?

Yes. The OP made a statement and you came in challanging it:

Evolution is a theory.. but yet, because it's based in science it apparently has more validity and people actually take it as FACT.

Now you want to play it off like you just wanted to chat about it.

Challenged... maybe. But clearly it was a failing attempt. It's always a numbers game.

Chat? I wouldn't call it a chat. Like i said, i came her to see discussion. Saw a large group of people who were trying to disprove ID so i chipped in. I'd call it an expression of opinion.

However in the last moments i've learnt my opinion meaningless. So i'll try not doing that again!

MrConspiracy
Saw a large group of people who were trying to disprove ID so i chipped in. I'd call it an expression of opinion.

This is why I suggested that you consider the topic of the thread. It isn't about disproving ID, it is about lambasting dishonest creationist tactics.

reply to post by MrConspiracy


You presented arguments earlier as the foundation of your beliefs, now its just faith based? Isnt that a little dishonest?

Faith is an excuse not a reason. If you had a reason, even a bad one, you'd use that instead of promoting faith.

daskakik

MrConspiracy
Saw a large group of people who were trying to disprove ID so i chipped in. I'd call it an expression of opinion.

This is why I suggested that you consider the topic of the thread. It isn't about disproving ID, it is about lambasting dishonest creationist tactics.

Ok, i get that. But the original post does say

"Most all creationist claims have been soundly refuted decades ago, but then new generations of creationists come up, the veritable "suckers born every minute"

It just riled me up a bit. I apologise it hurt everyone so much.

Wertdagf
reply to post by MrConspiracy

 

You presented arguments earlier as the foundation of your beliefs, now its just faith based? Isnt that a little dishonest?

Faith is an excuse not a reason. If you had a reason, even a bad one, you'd use that instead of promoting faith.

edit on 16-9-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Excuse my faith. I'm sorry it troubles you. It's not an excuse and i'm sorry you see it as such.

I like having my faith... and i'll never use it as a "cop out"...

Wertdagf
reply to post by MrConspiracy

 

You presented arguments earlier as the foundation of your beliefs, now its just faith based? Isnt that a little dishonest?

Faith is an excuse not a reason. If you had a reason, even a bad one, you'd use that instead of promoting faith.

edit on 16-9-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Do you have faith in science or do you fully understand all concepts of science.