Dishonest Creationist Tactics= Bad Religion

Murgatroid
reply to post by eggman90

 

I am amazed at responses that quote the bible.

The amazing to me is that those who attack God's Word are the same people who are gullible enough to believe the state backed religion of Darwinism.

It's obvious that we are being lied to...

WHY do people even believe what TPTB are telling them?

Believing in Darwinism makes JUST as much sense as believing in things like the NIST report.

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." ~ paleontologist T.L. Moor

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." ~ paleontologist T.L. Moor

Scientific facts prove that it is an impossible deliberate fraud which is COMPLETELY contradicted by evidence and science.

"Now, it is easy to show that Darwinism, one of the pillars of modern biology, is nothing but a kind of cult, a cult religion. I am not exaggerating. It has no scientific validity whatsoever. Darwin's so-called theory of evolution is based on absurdly irrational propositions, which did not come from scientific observations, but were artificially introduced from the outside, for political-ideological reasons."

Jonathan Tennenbaum: Toward a True Science of Life

Stop lying and participating in the very tactics that OP is addressing.

T.L. Moor was not a paleontologist and his name is actually L.T. More (Louis T.) . . . He was a physicist and Newton biographer. You are quote mining from some creationist source and I can prove it . . . because we both know you cannot cite the original source of that quote. Not to mention, that quote is from 1925 when paleontology was still, somewhat, in it's infancy and we had not nearly the amount or type of finds (data/evidence) that we do today. He also fully accepted evolution as a working hypothesis, at the time.

. Louis T. More (1870-1944), a physicist and dean at the University of Cincinnati who had just written a book, The Dogma of Evolution (1925), protesting the extension of evolution from biology to philosophy, replied that he accepted evolution as a working hypothesis.[2] . . .

Of course it does not seem to me very kosher to be quoting a non-biologist from 1925 -- it amazes me that anyone would have the nerve to do this. That is before the development of the Modern Synthesis and before a great many fossils were found.

Quote Mine Project - quote #61 - L.T. More

You are exactly the type of person described in OP. You quote mine out of context from non-authorities in the field. To make matters worse, you change the actual name of the person to make the quote harder to verify and lie about his credentials to give the quote more authority.

And you have the gall to lecture anyone about telling the truth!

You've been exposed for using fallacious information in the past (Expelled) and instead of just going away . . . you keep posting lies and made up quotes to help your cause.

If you are not doing so intentionally, then the only person who is believing the lies being told is you.

And as far as Tennenbaum . . . He is a mathematician, who specializes in economic forecasting. More over, his only scientific endeavor was acting as Lyndon LaRouche's "scientific advisor" for the Schiller Institute, which is a right-wing think tank. Even so, he long fell out of favor with said institute:

The notable culprits for that occasion, included such as a certain U.S. mathematician well known to me, Dr. Jonathan Tennenbaum. Tennenbaum, who had once known better, was, morally, the worst of the several hoaxsters among the witting participants for that occasion, because of his recently assumed credentials as a turncoat. The present report which follows here, should be considered a remedy for the hoax represented by Dr. Tennenbaum's proposed measures, but, as I shall point out here, my report here is a much-needed warning against the numerous, currently circulating frauds spawned either by the "global warming" hoax of Britain's Prince Philip, or other schemes similar to Dr. Tennenbaum's own, schemes which are, each and all, opposed to those principles of a science of economy on which the avoidance a planetary plunge into a new dark age now depends, immediately.

LaRouche PAC

These are the people who back your views on Evolutionary Theory?

A Physicist, who preferred Lamarkism, and an Economist who's only citable work is for a right-wing think tank?

Well at least you go straight to the experts . . .

solomons path

You are exactly the type of person described in OP. You quote mine out of context from non-authorities in the field. To make matters worse, you change the actual name of the person to make the quote harder to verify and lie about his credentials to give the quote more authority.

And you have the gall to lecture anyone about telling the truth!

You've been exposed for using fallacious information in the past (Expelled) and instead of just going away . . . you keep posting lies and made up quotes to help your cause.

If you are not doing so intentionally, then the only person who is believing the lies being told is you.

edit on 9/18/13 by solomons path because: (no reason given)

Well spotted and good job pointing this out.

It's amazing how they keep barging in and just defaulting to the very tactics described in the OP. If this continues this thread may generate a singularity of irony..

Yeah. There is no proof of creation!

Scientists have done the studies and abiogenesis is possible!

Since there is proof of abiogenesis being possible, that means that we don't have to believe in God any more!

Also, there is speculation that darwinistic mechanisms can produce the profound, sequential mutations possible to create the amazing biological machines that we see in nature!

This also means that we have something that may explain this stuff!

Since we have these theoretical explanations and we currently know .00000000000001% about the universe, it's dumb to believe in intelligent design(unless it's aliens)!!!

Yay!

No God! Yay!

reply to post by sdb93awd


^ Do you think he is trying to be sarcastic?

Even if tomorrow evolution were able to be shown and proven to be absolutely, completely uterly false, that still would not make the god hypothesis true by default.

So yeah, non sequitor.

reply to post by ReturnoftheSonofNothing

Even if tomorrow evolution were able to be shown and proven to be absolutely, completely uterly false, that still would not make the god hypothesis true by default.

That's kinda the point. The two topics aren't as closely knit as it's made out to be.

They're actually very independent subjects.

Only idiots fall for the God vs. Evolution thingy. Idiots only.

It's a talking point

reply to post by sdb93awd


Well I don't know that I'd go so far as to call them idiots, but basically I agree.

A common dishonest tactic they use is listening to some other zealot's research (which involves quote-mining usually) or visiting some creationist propaganda emporium (ha I just made myself laugh) and finding some quote about some thing a scientist said, say a geologist or a molecular biologist, then coming over to their favourite origins forum and beating atheists and agnostics and modertate (i.e non-zany) religious people over the head with it...

As I said before, their argument is with science. If they feel that strongly they should submit a scientific paper to peer review, but you suggest that and they reject that notion because they aren't a scientist and wouldn't know the first thing about it. And yet they expect us to be that expert in defense of evolution or the big bang or some other scientific area. It's ludicrous, and it's dishonest.

sdb93awd
reply to post by ReturnoftheSonofNothing

 

Even if tomorrow evolution were able to be shown and proven to be absolutely, completely uterly false, that still would not make the god hypothesis true by default.

That's kinda the point. The two topics aren't as closely knit as it's made out to be.

They're actually very independent subjects.

Only idiots fall for the God vs. Evolution thingy. Idiots only.

It's a talking point

I think that point has been raised to creationists, in threads like these, numerous times.

Yet, they still show the need to employ the tactics outlined in the OP. Which begs the question, if nothing in Evolutionary Theory speaks to the validity of a supernatural creator, why do they try (to the point of making things up) so hard to discredit it? Why does the creation science movement try so hard to lobby politicians and school boards to "teach the controversy"? Why are they so threatened by kids learning actual science, in a science class?

Murgatroid
reply to post by eggman90

 

I am amazed at responses that quote the bible.

The amazing to me is that those who attack God's Word are the same people who are gullible enough to believe the state backed religion of Darwinism.

It's obvious that we are being lied to...

WHY do people even believe what TPTB are telling them?

Believing in Darwinism makes JUST as much sense as believing in things like the NIST report.

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." ~ paleontologist T.L. Moor

Scientific facts prove that it is an impossible deliberate fraud which is COMPLETELY contradicted by evidence and science.

"Now, it is easy to show that Darwinism, one of the pillars of modern biology, is nothing but a kind of cult, a cult religion. I am not exaggerating. It has no scientific validity whatsoever. Darwin's so-called theory of evolution is based on absurdly irrational propositions, which did not come from scientific observations, but were artificially introduced from the outside, for political-ideological reasons."

Jonathan Tennenbaum: Toward a True Science of Life

a wise man

mrphilosophias

Murgatroid
reply to post by eggman90

 

I am amazed at responses that quote the bible.

The amazing to me is that those who attack God's Word are the same people who are gullible enough to believe the state backed religion of Darwinism.

It's obvious that we are being lied to...

WHY do people even believe what TPTB are telling them?

Believing in Darwinism makes JUST as much sense as believing in things like the NIST report.

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." ~ paleontologist T.L. Moor

Scientific facts prove that it is an impossible deliberate fraud which is COMPLETELY contradicted by evidence and science.

"Now, it is easy to show that Darwinism, one of the pillars of modern biology, is nothing but a kind of cult, a cult religion. I am not exaggerating. It has no scientific validity whatsoever. Darwin's so-called theory of evolution is based on absurdly irrational propositions, which did not come from scientific observations, but were artificially introduced from the outside, for political-ideological reasons."

Jonathan Tennenbaum: Toward a True Science of Life

a wise man

Yes . . . wisdom is often exhibited by having to use manufactured citations and erroneous opinion pieces to back a claim.

I believe the site motto is "deny ignorance", not "promote fallacies".

However, I'm sure the ID/Creation community appreciates the conspiracist ideation and "echo chamber" response, while ignoring the false claims and misrepresentations herein.

So much for your earlier claim of being "an honest creationist" . . .

If Aliens had anything to do with our creation, then it was by design.

And I don't mean to use the term "If" cuz, I know Aliens did it!

the whole DNA thing..... If only Darwin knew about that, we wouldn't be fighting so much!

AbleEndangered
If Aliens had anything to do with our creation, then it was by design.

And I don't mean to use the term "If" cuz, I know Aliens did it!

the whole DNA thing..... If only Darwin knew about that, we wouldn't be fighting so much!

Darwin predicted a mechanism for inheritance, but had no way to test for this prediction. Both due to his training and the technology available at the time.

Mendel advanced this prediction through his work and Gene Theory.

Crick and Watson completed (proved) this prediction several decades later by discovering DNA.

That's what a good hypothesis does . . . make predictions that can be tested for. When technology advanced to the point of being able to look into the cellular level, Darwin and Mendel's predictions were confirmed, strengthening both Darwin's and Mendel's hypotheses.

Making the exact opposite of your last sentence true.

reply to post by solomons path


Well the thread is about Creationists tactics.

As a Creationist I do have tactics...

One of the tactics I use when someone brings up Darwin and natural selection and there is no way to have a God because of this. I bring up, well Darwin thought like that too til he started thinking about eyeballs. Darwin looked at Eyeballs as Machines, and they kinda are like Cameras for the brain. A machine needs a Designer!

The Evolution and changes don't happen by accident, or coincidence.. Its Programming. The Programming language used manipulates atoms & molecules into more complex molecular machines and systems. Cells even have some way of wireless communication to other cells, this has scientists still perplexed. They will find the wi-fi routers eventually in the cells!

Geneticists study this code. When I referred to Darwin having Knowledge of DNA code and us not having an intelligent design vs evolution. He would have realized it was a Language, and we would call it a programming.

Mendel was a monk, and monks know how to make good beer!

So instead of arguing about if there was or is a God, we would be arguing about how to reach out and find him!!

Poor God, he gets no Credit at work, at school, at home....

I thank God everyday he gives us til them asteroids start whacking!!

Cuz on that Day, Its the Day of the Lord, There will be no more confusion, we will all be free!

Maybe if the guy wasn't so Jealous he would spare us, but he is Jealous over us. Its says right there in Black and White, this guy is a Jealous God!! Like a guy over his hot chick!!

The guy really likes us, but we are so bad and turned on him!

We fight over if he even exists or not, like we can encode DNA ourselves and are experts on it!

This guy took a billion atoms, nano-teched them into a single molecule, and encoded this molecule with functions to operate in this universe like the Universe is the operating system and the DNA is the app to replicate and turn other atoms into itself or other cooler things!!

This might be just one coding language to do it, like we have C+, PHP, JAVA, there might be other ways to get it done, other apps, other syntax!

We will never know tho, If we keep thinking inside of a box. Cuz a big brainwashing facility instructed me on what was fact or fiction and that was written in stone!!

added:
Think about the natural shame people feel for just talking about God in public, like a grocery, the looks..

A deep shame is embedded in us for something in our past, our DNA has it written there what happened and why we are so ashamed!!

reply to post by AbleEndangered


Darwin's observations were over 150yrs ago. We do not rely on his observations today, 16 decades later. It's the reason why we do not call Evolutionary Theory "Darwin's Theory of Evolution".

As far as the eyeball . . . we have a pretty clear understanding of how the eye evolved from simple photo receptive cells to what we see today. It is not "irreducibly complex" (i.e. needing a "designer", which is nothing more than the watchmaker's fallacy) and you seem to be missing a crucial element to Darwin's thoughts on the eye.

Indeed, Charles Darwin himself acknowledged in On the Origin of Species—the 1859 book detailing his theory of evolution by natural selection—that it might seem absurd to think the eye formed by natural selection. He nonetheless firmly believed that the eye did evolve in that way, despite a lack of evidence for intermediate forms at the time.

Evolution of the Eye

I'm not sure why creationists focus so much on Darwin's Victorian-era knowledge, when our knowledge has progressed well beyond that today.

As far as your thoughts on DNA, it can be considered programming (chemical programming) and even equated to an artificial language. In fact, all of biology can be explained through advanced chemical interactions. However, the language used, to this point, shows no evidence of supernatural or extraterrestrial intelligence. Inserting such is not needed to explain it and until there is empirical evidence to support it . . . it is merely conjecture based on theistic faith (which is not science, it's philosophy).

I'll also disagree about "thinking in the box". There are several researchers thinking outside the box and postulating the possibility of design or manipulation through outside agents. This is why I scoff at people you believe propaganda, like Expelled, which claim those that do are somehow "silenced" through a worldwide conspiracy to keep the status quo.

Case in point . . . Paul Davies (professor of theoretical physics, cosmology, astrobiology) at my alma mater Arizona State University. He postulates that somewhere, hidden, in our DNA is code that might prove extra-terrestrial intervention or design. Not only has he not been "silenced" or lost his position, as those that promote this conspiracy claim he should have been, but he is head of his department, Director of the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts of Science, and a lead researcher at their very "out of the box" Exo-Biology laboratory.

Davies’s research interests are focused on the “big questions” of existence, ranging from the origin of the universe to the origin of life, and include the nature of time, the search for life in the universe and foundational questions in quantum mechanics. He helped create the theory of quantum fields in curved spacetime, with which he provided explanations for how black holes can radiate energy, and what caused the ripples in the cosmic afterglow of the big bang. In astrobiology, he was a forerunner of the theory that life on Earth may have come from Mars. He is currently championing the theory that Earth may host a shadow biosphere of alternative life forms.

Paul Davies
Beyond

The difference is he doesn't make specious claims that are not supported by empirical evidence. No grand conspiracy is keeping him from talking about or researching fields that go against current scientific theories. And, you can bet if he ever finds empirical evidence to support his notions . . . he has a Nobel Prize coming to him.

So, despite the protestation coming from the creation/ID community . . . there is no conspiracy to "brainwash" the public at large or silence those that "think outside the box". That is nothing more than conspiracist ideation to give their claims some sort of pseudo-authority.

JAVA doesn't write itself. You need a source code for generation!

Your in a Simulation!

The Universe = Operating System, DNA/RNA = Application.

The Singularities are our Renderers!

When the day of the Lord comes, you can ask him where he came from, and he will ask you, "Why did you deny me??"

Don't mean to get all dramatic and all, but the closer the day comes, the more drama there will be!!

To make you feel better about this, I think God stores us in Bio-Memory, So dont think Ram, think packs of Bio-Crystals, like star-trek!

Oh yeah, and don't forget this thread about how efficient DNA is at data storage.

Breakthrough in storing 700 terabytes of data in 1 gram of DNA
www.abovetopsecret.com...

or this thread:
Huge Amounts Of Data Can Be Stored In DNA
www.abovetopsecret.com...

or this one:
Scientists turn DNA into graphene transistors
www.abovetopsecret.com...


All of this is just a test in a simulation..

You like playing games? Well so do they!

adding:

What was going on with the paleontologists being fired over their soft tissue findings in Dinosaur Bones??
Why are discoveries of Giants being brushed under the rug by the Smithsonian?
Why is pretty much every scientist or archaeologist or paleontologist that publishes findings against the Smithsonians agenda , they are blackballed?

Robert T. Bakker himself is a devout Christian!

If you start blabbing about God being the designer, the brainwashing facilities will shut you down so fast! Bakker, has played it very safe. Withthe soft tissue finding alogn withthe mummified Dino Stories, I think its raising soem questions and the Smithsonian isn't willing to answer!!

reply to post by AbleEndangered

Well, the topic of the thread isn't creationist tactics but dishonest creationist tactics. Your in luck though because you have them.

I see a masked man fallacy in your claim that eyes are like cameras and that cameras need designers.

A non sequitur in your claim that evolution and changes don't happen by accident.

A false attribution when you describe what it was that god did.

And a guilt trip at the end.

reply to post by AbleEndangered


You are simply employing the Watchmaker Fallacy. Assuming because computer code is designed by humans that DNA must have a designer, as well. However, you have no empirical evidence to show for said design, so it amounts to nothing more than conjecture based on your theistic beliefs.
Watchmaker analogy

When searching for the truth, we do ourselves no favors by conjuring strange excuses on behalf of our beliefs in order to reconcile them with reality. What we should strive for is to arrive at our beliefs in an honest way -- a way that is mindful of the facts and adapts with change, and not one that bends to our wishes.

Self-Refuting Argument

As for your continued conspiracist ideation, regarding the "silencing" of scientists that go against the Smithsonian . . . please give specific examples to this conspiracy and let's see where the truth lies, shall we. There is no conspiracy to silence; furthermore, there are many religious scientists (Bakker, Miller, et al). They aren't "playing it safe" . . . they simply don't let their faith stand in the way of empirical evidence.

And thank you for the warning about the coming of your "lord" . . . something tells me that I won't be losing any sleep over it.

reply to post by daskakik


Do you not see it as a Simulation??
Don't you not repeat the same tasks over and over, repeatedly, eventually serving a purpose to a greater system and structure??
Do you not see the Universe as just a fragment of a much much larger Universe
Do you believe we are alone, and no one else in the SImulation would visit this beautiful Planet that broadcasts I love Lucy and Elvis??
Do you not see the tasks you have at hand. You can either do your Job or role, or be consumed by the system and recycled.
Do you not hear an inner voice tell you something is wrong before you do it?

We were designed for a purpose! To help God rebuild the Kingdom of Heaven after a great war. We were good at mining. In return he gave us the gift of Life and the gift of Free Will, a Choice to become like them or stay like animals.

We have 6 senses (most of us):
Sight
Smell
Hearing
Touch
Taste
& the Conscience, the sense of right and wrong, what separates us from animals and makes us more like gods!

Gods wants us to join him! But we have to be tested first!! You can't have the Kingdom of Heaven without fighting for it!!

Revelations 12: KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

and we all know around here God told Adam where to find the good Gold!!

Genesis 2 KJV:
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Look at the story of the serpent, a snake was found in China with a Leg, a fricking Leg! In Genesis it says God deleted the DNA code that contained the legs and cursed the snake to his belly.

Genesis 3 KJV:
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The error correction is so good on DNA data storage, we sometimes see re-emergence of deleted data!

Like scientists say Human males had their DNA erased somehow that contained the Penile Barbs like primates have. Somehow, poof thats gone and we have pleasure. Oh not counting the huge increase in grey matter!!

We were created as worker beings, but were giving amazing gifts and choices!!

The choices we make will affect the ending of our games!! Multiple Endings! Parallel Universes!! Multiverses!!

AbleEndangered
reply to post by daskakik

 

We were good at mining. In return he gave us the gift of Life and the gift of Free Will, a Choice to become like them or stay like animals.

Is it he or they? There seems to be a glitch in your matrix.

So even before he/they gave us life we were good at mining?

Sorry but your not making sense.

reply to post by solomons path


Here is one
Mark Armitage, fired for his paper published on Dinosaur soft tissue, from guess where?? The biggest brainwashing center of all, California!!
Here is his paper you can glance through the clip notes and pics.

www.sciencedirect.com...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Apparently they expelled him for it!

Buck the system, get expelled!

You do know Einstein believed or perceived the Universe was Gods thoughts right? God was always a variable for him! A Constant!

Bakker has to play it safe, or this happens!!

Keep believing the Matrix, see how far it gets you!


Truth...the fact is, there is none...Only the Simulation is true!!