Kerry Gives in to Lavrov on “Use of Force,” Putin Wins, Assad Keeps WMD For Now

jdub297

It would NOT; it is 2 years too late.
Back when Clinton and Obama said, "Assad must go." it would have resulted in and end to his murder of peaceful protesters, and allowed a transition to a moderate leader.

There are no moderate leaders in that area of the world. They are either religious governments or military governments.

The rebels are murdering civilians and framing assad. Assad is only targeting the rebels composed of sunni fanatics funded and armed by nato(saudia arabia, usa). The same fanatics in every nation that had arab spring.

They have been alternately bellicose and dithering ever since.
No one believes anything the president says anymore (they never should have).
He and Kerry have backed themselves into a wall where they have to make empty threats they do not intend to follow; or, if they do, with disastrous consequences.

They shouldnt be making threats without understanding what the # is going on in the first place. Or they probably did understand but are so evil they want to destabilise the middle east on purpose. Its good for perpetual war and MIC profitablity.

No one. Allah will settle Syria. Millions will flee or die due to our inaction.

Thousands did die because of saudia arabia and usa, not because of our inaction. Is there anything at all you can get correct?

Likewise, we were not in direct conflict in the Middle East in 2001.
More blather from the empty-headed UK.

edit on 14-9-2013 by jdub297 because: (no reason given)

afghanistan, libya, syria, iraq twice, threatning war with iran and putting sanctions on them.

and 9-11 was an inside job in case you dont know by now, which you probably dont.

buster2010
How nice that you complain about Assad killing his people but say nothing about the FSA doing the same thing. In this case Assad is the lesser of two evils. Who would want WMD's in the hands of people who eat the organs of their victims? And what happens in Syria is none of Americas business if other nations in the ME has problems with Syria then they can man up and deal with their own problems.

Agreed. Syria was relatively peaceful until western powers started trying to destabilize the country. We're just spinning plates with every country that is being hit with a revolution. We're not giving the other countries any time to settle down before yet another one is invaded by fighters.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I cannot believe your complete ignorance of history and geopolitics.

There are no moderate leaders in that area of the world. They are either religious governments or military governments.

Funny thing, Assad is neither a general or religious. Neither was Egypt’s Morsi; and both are worse than any present possibility. There are plenty of moderate religious and military leaders in the region, you are just oblivious to facts that don’t fit with your delusions.

The rebels are murdering civilians and framing Assad.

That is what Putin says; got any proof? So what if it is true? It is most likely members of the FSA and Qaeda, trained by Turkey (Obama’s Muslim-led “friend.”) to foster radicalism among moderate rebel groups.

Assad is only targeting the rebels composed of sunni fanatics funded and armed by nato(saudia arabia, usa).

This is beyond ridiculous, and reveals your lack of interest in the truth.
The Syrian uprising arose when his citizens began to doubt Assad’s sincerity about calling for “free and fair” elections in 2014. When they conducted peacefyl protests, they wre machine-gunned by his snipers.

Likewise, we were not in direct conflict in the Middle East in 2001.
More blather from the empty-headed UK.

afghanistan, libya, syria, iraq twice, threatning war with iran and putting sanctions on them.

We not active against anyone in any of those places prior to the 1993 bombing, or in the Clinton years. You have absolutely no grasp of history, do you?

and 9-11 was an inside job in case you dont know by now, which you probably dont.

More delusional B.S. and irrelevant.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

reply to post by jdub297


Denial and deflection. Grasping at straws doesnt help you one bit. Fact of the matter is that the leaders up till now are or were secular not muslim brotherhood scum helped by nato. Saudia Arabia is a big part of the problem as well.

PTB want sunni fundamentalists in power throughout the middle east. Arab Spring was staged theatrics.

stormcell

buster2010
How nice that you complain about Assad killing his people but say nothing about the FSA doing the same thing. In this case Assad is the lesser of two evils. Who would want WMD's in the hands of people who eat the organs of their victims? And what happens in Syria is none of Americas business if other nations in the ME has problems with Syria then they can man up and deal with their own problems.

Agreed. Syria was relatively peaceful until western powers started trying to destabilize the country. We're just spinning plates with every country that is being hit with a revolution. We're not giving the other countries any time to settle down before yet another one is invaded by fighters.

You, too, are as oblivious to the facts as stormcell and earth(oblivious)citizen from another make-believe world.

Syria was neither peaceful nor quiet prior to the Syrian Uprising. The Assad family were ruthless in holding power, and Bashar had been in power for over thirty years. He murdered peaceful protesters who no longer believed his lies and were calling for true democratic elections. They were unarmed and cut down in the streets.

I guess it pisses all of you off that the US expressed displeasure at such "relatively peaceful" behavior. It is obvious that many on ATS and in this thread have no idea what they are clainming, or just intend to misrepresent lies as facts.


Deny Ignorance.

jw

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jdub297

 

Denial and deflection. Grasping at straws doesnt help you one bit. Fact of the matter is that the leaders up till now are or were secular not muslim brotherhood scum helped by nato. Saudia Arabia is a big part of the problem as well.

PTB want sunni fundamentalists in power throughout the middle east. Arab Spring was staged theatrics.

You have no idea what you are saying and deserve no future responses. Your posts are pathetic.

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jdub297

 

Denial and deflection. Grasping at straws doesnt help you one bit. Fact of the matter is that the leaders up till now are or were secular not muslim brotherhood scum helped by nato. Saudia Arabia is a big part of the problem as well.

PTB want sunni fundamentalists in power throughout the middle east. Arab Spring was staged theatrics.

Secular dictators that support religious radicals like Hezbollah is a good thing? Syria has a long history if internal strife and fighting. That fighting has long spilled over into Lebanon. I love people who think the Arab Spring is some kind of staged thing by the West. The West who was more than happy to deal with petty dictators like Assad and Khadaffi who could be easly cowed into doing whatever the west wanted. And the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood was not even a part of the early uprisings they came later from exhile. Of course the Syrian MB is very secular organization now. That lead to its isolation from other Muslim Brotherhoods (and yes they are all seperate groups that do not get along as often as they do) but brought itself closer ties with the Kurds and other opposition groups. I know understanding politics in the region is complicated but, their are many good books on the subject. Or you can continue to twist events to fit your already pre written narative.

jdub297

stormcell

buster2010
How nice that you complain about Assad killing his people but say nothing about the FSA doing the same thing. In this case Assad is the lesser of two evils. Who would want WMD's in the hands of people who eat the organs of their victims? And what happens in Syria is none of Americas business if other nations in the ME has problems with Syria then they can man up and deal with their own problems.

Agreed. Syria was relatively peaceful until western powers started trying to destabilize the country. We're just spinning plates with every country that is being hit with a revolution. We're not giving the other countries any time to settle down before yet another one is invaded by fighters.

You, too, are as oblivious to the facts as stormcell and earth(oblivious)citizen from another make-believe world.

Syria was neither peaceful nor quiet prior to the Syrian Uprising. The Assad family were ruthless in holding power, and Bashar had been in power for over thirty years. He murdered peaceful protesters who no longer believed his lies and were calling for true democratic elections. They were unarmed and cut down in the streets.

I guess it pisses all of you off that the US expressed displeasure at such "relatively peaceful" behavior. It is obvious that many on ATS and in this thread have no idea what they are clainming, or just intend to misrepresent lies as facts.

Deny Ignorance.

jw

Dude, take your neoconservative war-mongering, banker infested BS somewhere else.

MrSpad


Secular dictators that support religious radicals like Hezbollah is a good thing? Syria has a long history if internal strife and fighting. That fighting has long spilled over into Lebanon.

Probably cause no one likes israel. It doesnt matter if its shiite or sunni fundamentalism.

I am not one who likes assad. He is simply the lesser of evils and more experienced.

The previous dictators(or current in some cases) are more secular than the ones nato is funding and arming to take over.

reply to post by jdub297


OK, we are more than a week past Obama and Kerry’s “blithering idiot” fumbles, and 24 hours post “Agreement.

Beginning with their ridiculous “Agreement” to some sort of “UN-brokered” intervention against Assad’s WMD after they had all, at various times, denounced the UN process as “hocus pocus.”

In reference to Syria, various administration officials have described the UN as a "disgrace" and "paralyzed." Obama himself described the UN process as "hocus pocus." In a startling reversal, Tuesday, the president agreed to "discussions at the United Nations Security Council on a proposal from Russia to secure Syria’s chemical weapons stockpiles."

www.breitbart.com...

What are their Liberal and Progressive friends saying about the performances?

All Assad has to do to forever stave off a punitive strike is to keep promising that he's in the middle of giving up his chemical weapons. (No one, by the way, has addressed the fate of his biological weapons.) This is a process that could go on for months, or even years.
Jeffrey Rosenbers, Bloomberg View

www.bloomberg.com...

Even that old, Progressive stalwart, The New republic were quick to criticize, where Julia Ioffe wrote:

There are two clear winners in this slow-motion train wreck, and they are not Obama or Kerry. They are Assad and Putin.

www.newrepublic.com...] The Syria Solution: Obama Got Played by Putin and Assad

For anyone wanting the U. S. out of the Middle East, Obama and Kerry are about to grant your wishes:

With the Russian proposal on Syrian chemical weapons, the United States is being escorted out of the Middle East

www.weeklystandard.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> Putin Didn't Save Obama, He Beat Him

And for those of you who cannot stand the thought of Amercian exceptionalism,” don’t worry, Obama is hard at work obliterating any lingering vestiges of such a concept:

: I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism. … the fact that I am very proud of my country and I think that we've got a whole lot to offer the world does not lessen my interest in recognizing the value and wonderful qualities of other countries, or recognizing that we're not always going to be right, or that other people may have good ideas, or that in order for us to work collectively, all parties have to compromise and that includes us.
And so I see no contradiction between believing that America has a continued extraordinary role in leading the world towards peace and prosperity and recognizing that that leadership is incumbent, depends on, our ability to create partnerships because we create partnerships because we can't solve these problems alone.

www.whitehouse.gov...

And sorry to tell you, but Assad has already begun moving his WMD to friendly neighbors Libya and Iraq.

On Sunday, General Salim Idriss (another Obama friend) said that Syria has been moving weapons of mass destruction out of the country into Lebanon and Iraq.

www.breitbart.com...

All of you who believe there’s now going to be peace in the Middle East are using magical thinking.

jw

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Please don't use Breitbart as a source. It's... somewhat skewed.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Please don't use Breitbart as a source. It's... somewhat skewed.

I dont use it as a source. Perhaps you replied to the wrong person.

jdub297
[

You have no idea what you are saying and deserve no future responses. Your posts are pathetic.

Same can be said of you.

You obviolsy buy all the propaganda and view the USA every action as just and right and aload to act unilatrally while condeming others for doing the same. Hell the USA could march into Switzerland tomorrow and you would beat you chest and wave your flag in blind support.

You cant even get your facts right on the UK how can any of us even beleive the other nonescence you spew

MrSpad

EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jdub297

 

Denial and deflection. Grasping at straws doesnt help you one bit. Fact of the matter is that the leaders up till now are or were secular not muslim brotherhood scum helped by nato. Saudia Arabia is a big part of the problem as well.

PTB want sunni fundamentalists in power throughout the middle east. Arab Spring was staged theatrics.

Secular dictators that support religious radicals like Hezbollah is a good thing? Syria has a long history if internal strife and fighting. That fighting has long spilled over into Lebanon. I love people who think the Arab Spring is some kind of staged thing by the West. The West who was more than happy to deal with petty dictators like Assad and Khadaffi who could be easly cowed into doing whatever the west wanted. And the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood was not even a part of the early uprisings they came later from exhile. Of course the Syrian MB is very secular organization now. That lead to its isolation from other Muslim Brotherhoods (and yes they are all seperate groups that do not get along as often as they do) but brought itself closer ties with the Kurds and other opposition groups. I know understanding politics in the region is complicated but, their are many good books on the subject. Or you can continue to twist events to fit your already pre written narative.

It's amazing how many trolls on ATS have no idea what they are talking about, but feel compelled to put in their lunacy.

The Middle East and North Africa have witnessed instability, warfare, corruption and atrocity for thousand of years.

Many poorly-educated children believe this is all the result of Western interventions.
They forget that for several hundred years, "Mongol Hordes" terrorized vast areas, into Eastern Europe.
Before them other tribes and nations menaced their neighbors and each other as well.
This barbarism continues to this day, even among a single nation or country; witness the Somali and Afghan warlords fighting among themselves and even within their own ranks.

It is little wonder that American prestige has diminished, given that our current and future leasers have no idea what goes on in the world, outside of their misconceptions. The future looks awfully grim unless we can limit their influence. "Low-information" didn't just come out of thin air as a description of people unable to contribute meaningfully to our societies.

jw

reply to post by jdub297


You really do speak out of your rear end!

"Current and future lessears" ?

With attitudes like that you wonder why the world hates you?
You want respect you have to give it!
Or do you want me to kiss your arse and worship you just cause your american?! Il sooner strap a bomb to myself and im not even muslim!

And yeah violence and political division has occured in africa and ME before the USA even had its first European settler. But the usa poking its noises in wont help! It will just draw that hatred and violence towards the usa! Before WW2 theusa never had a issue with muslims trying to blow it up did it? Only thing the USA had to worry about were actual threats with projection power who could bring the fight to the USA.

I hope in the next terroist attack its you and people like you that have drawn the hatred toward the usa that get blown up and not the90% of decent america that are innocent.

Good,it's not like missile strikes would improve the situation.The American Exceptionalism delusion has cost this country far too much it's this thinking that gets us into trouble everytime.From NK to Vietnam to Syria.It's pitiful that so many people truly think that we should be an empire.

I appreciate your thoughts (OP), and understand your frustration. My daughter was also dispointed in no intervention. However, it is so confussing and complex over there that the questions raised by the international community and the US congress were valid.

What would a limited strike do?

Who would it strengthen?

Those are two of the biggies. It is incredibly sick - what is happening on all sides in that country (and others). I would love it if we could make all pain and suffering stop but interventions need to be all the way or nothing. Reistance would increase in that case, especially there. That would be no small feat and many more would die. This world is screwed up without a doubt. Look at Mexico or North Korea. We can't do it all alone. Even the UN couldn't do it all at this point. To undo all the damage we would need one government for the world and that hasn't happened.

mike dangerously
Good,it's not like missile strikes would improve the situation..

Even Assad agrees with you:

Syria's government hailed as a "victory" a Russian-brokered deal that has averted U.S. strikes ... .

President Bashar al-Assad's jets and artillery hit rebel suburbs of the capital again on Sunday ... .

Syrian minister Ali Haidar told Moscow's RIA news agency: "These agreements ... are a victory for Syria, achieved thanks to our Russian friends.
...
Assad has stepped up an offensive with ordinary weaponry now that the threat of U.S. air strikes has receded. A spokesman for the opposition Syrian National Coalition repeated that it wanted world powers to prevent Assad from using his air force, tanks and artillery on civilian areas.

"Assad is effectively being rewarded for the use of chemical weapons," Shadi Hamid of the Brookings Doha Center wrote in the Atlantic magazine. "Now, he can get away with nearly anything - as long as he sticks to using good old conventional weapons."
...
Air strikes, shelling and ground attacks on Damascus suburbs on Sunday backed up statements from Assad's supporters and opponents that he is back on the offensive ... .

An opposition activist in Damascus echoed disappointment among rebel leaders: "Helping Syrians would mean stopping the bloodshed," he said.
...
Assad told Russian state television last week that his cooperation was dependent on an end ... U.S. support for rebel fighters.

Assad government hails 'victory' in arms deal, troops attack

That's at least another 250 civilian non-combatants the world no longer has to wring their dirty hands about, right?
Maybe Kerry can attend the burials to blame it all on an anti-Islam youtube video?

Deny ignorance.

jw

Dianec
I appreciate your thoughts (OP), and understand your frustration. My daughter was also dispointed in no intervention. However, it is so confussing and complex over there that the questions raised by the international community and the US congress were valid.

To undo all the damage we would need one government for the world and that hasn't happened.

What if that one-world government was led by Xi Jinping, the leader of the country with the most people? The current model, the U.N., has been called "hocus pocus" by Obama, and ineffective by almost everyone else.


You could always just explain what we've decided to do:
Let bad guys fight other bad guys; and let mommies, daddies and babies in between fend for themselves..

According to most on this thread, It's none of our business.

Good luck.

jw

reply to post by Dianec

I would never trust Barack Obama or John Kerry to get a "limited strike" on target or to be effective.

We would need a coalition, with the EU in the lead, to counter the Russian flow of arms into Syria. We would need go to the original protesters/rebels, and assist them to strengthen/establish an alternative government, and arm them. They've already formed one, and picked a moderate parliamentarian to lead it, but we've offered no visible and effective support so far.

We would need to simultaneously assist the moderate government in identifying and isolating the radical Islam insurgents trained by Turkey and Hezbollah to turn the country into a jihadi base.

No one on this thread has the balls to even think of this out loud, much less those in D.C.

The original protesters/rebels are pretty-well doomed.
Syria will divided into factions with an Al Qaeda/Hezbollah base and Assad's base in another.

jw