Undeniable logic proving that god created the universe.

reply to post by Agent008


I love you

reply to post by Agent008

plz remove, double post

reply to post by iterationzero


Did the OP respond to how the conjecture of creationism is unfalsifiable, and therefore stupidly useless, or how using god as an explination of the universes origins still doesn't explain where god came from?

I also noticed the OP is spamming his own thread with one liners in an attempt to drown out criticism.

miniatus

paradox
So who made god?

One of the following propositions must be true if god exists and we follow your line of reasoning.

1. God is a life form, therefore god requires a creator if life can only come from life, therefore "god" is not "god" if there are higher powers beyond it, ad infinitum.

2. God is not a life form, and can create life, therefore life can come from non life, therefore there is no reason to have god in the equation.

Get logic'd sonnnnnnn

edit on 9-12-13 by paradox because: (no reason given)

Which is a much more elegant and detailed description of the same thing I asked.. star for you

But the thing is, God exists outside of time. He is the alpha and omega. Without time can there be a beginning for God?

reply to post by dragonridr


I am sure about what I feel, what I believe is something totally different. I am toying with the notion that the universe was created. It would seem so far to be the most evident cause for it's existence.

I apologise if I am coming across as a troll because I do not aim to be though sometimes people do frustrate me.

There are other threads of this type but i do not think you will find any quite the same. Most are religion based or something else. This is a philosophical debate.

reply to post by Cedik


Maybe a better title for the thread would have been "what I believe, the universe was created"

To claim you have undeniable logic and then make appeals to ignorance why back tracking saying "this is a philosophical discussion" seems to be very dishonest.

We have a thread for the dishonest tactics of creationists.

Wertdagf
reply to post by iterationzero

 

Did the OP respond to how the conjecture of creationism is unfalsifiable, and therefore stupidly useless, or how using god as an explination of the universes origins still doesn't explain where god came from?

I also noticed the OP is spamming his own thread with one liners in an attempt to drown out criticism.

edit on 18-9-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Time is part of the universe, if God created the universe then he created time. Form this we assume (and also told in scriptures but we will leave the religion bit out for now) that God exists outside of time. If there is no time how can he have a beginning?

reply to post by greavsie1971


How is using "scripture" proof of anything?

How is it that this unknowable god with undefinable qualities, for which there is no evidence, is suddenly so understood and every creationist and his dog knows what his favorite color is and how he likes his eggs?

Why is it every time I see a thread with the words " undeniable, proof, or logic" the OP usually contains none of the claimed. The thread deserves a face palm pic.

Wertdagf
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

How is using "scripture" proof of anything?

How is it that this unknowable god for which there is no evidence is suddenly so understood and every creationist and his dog knows what his favorite color is and how he likes his eggs?

Hello again Wertdagf, hope you are well.

God is a belief. You nor I or anyone can prove something that exists outside of the universe. That is why it is a belief. I am happy believing it. I suspect you are happy not believing it. That is cool and I respect you for that. We can never fully understand God (if he does exist), as he is totally different than us. Our minds cannot grasp things outside space and time. It is not about proof, it is about whether you choose to believe or not. Nobody should claim to understand God. Those of us that read scriptures are told we can never understand something great enough to create the universe. (again, I know scripture means nothing to you, just trying to explain how I believe...respectfully in answer to your post)

Scripture is not proof of God. It's a tool for those that believe in God. I know of no creationist (or their dogs) that claim to know what his favourite colour is or how he likes his eggs. That is funny though.

I hope you respect my beliefs as I respect yours.

Wertdagf
reply to post by Cedik

 

Maybe a better title for the thread would have been "what I believe, the universe was created"

To claim you have undeniable logic and then make appeals to ignorance why back tracking saying "this is a philosophical discussion" seems to be very dishonest.

We have a thread for the dishonest tactics of creationists.

I agree, the thread title could have been better.

reply to post by greavsie1971


So when a Muslim father mutilates the genitals of his baby daughter and claims that god told him to do it, will you respect that belief? What about a Christian father who send his gay son to be tortured straight, will you respect that belief?

Your asking me to respect something akin to an open wound on society through which all sorts of disease and filth pours in. No, I do not respect your opinion. I do not respect your beliefs. I will not allow you to poison the minds of children with superstitious nonsense. In every way under the law I will work against such idiocy.

Wertdagf
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

So when a Muslim father mutilates the genitals of his baby daughter and claims that god told him to do it, will you respect that belief? What about a Christian father who send his gay son to be tortured straight, will you respect that belief?

Your asking me to respect something akin to an open wound on society through which all sorts of disease and filth pours in. No, I do not respect your opinion. I do not respect your beliefs. I will not allow you to poison the minds of children with superstitious nonsense. In every way under the law I will work against such idiocy.

Wow,

My beliefs are not anywhere near what you think. I could easily say non-believers commit violent crimes too, that does not make it ok for me to totally dis respect ALL non believers the way you disrespect believers.
Insane violent people belong to ALL beliefs including non believers too. Does that mean we should disrespect everyone? You seem to have a lot of hatred in your heart, be careful as that will do more damage to you than anyone else. I dont poison the minds of anyone. I believe everyone should choose what they believe. And RESPECT them for it, as long as they hurt no-one. You make it sound like I hurt people. I dont. I try my hardest to be a good person. You dont know me, I dont know you, yet I show you respect, you dont.

I hope someday you will realize that most people of this world (including believers) are good people who would never hurt anyone. Showing respect for others is a good thing. You have not shown this in your post. What does that say about you?

reply to post by greavsie1971


This about believing things for bad reasons and celebrating it. Have a high standard for that which you believe or, in my mind, you are guilty of enabling those horrible faith based injustices.

Those who enable the delusions of others and carry around ignorance on a pedestal deserve my hate.

Grimpachi
Why is it every time I see a thread with the words " undeniable, proof, or logic" the OP usually contains none of the claimed. The thread deserves a face palm pic.

And Jesus said, "lo, asketh and thou shall receiveth" and there was much rejoicing and stamping of feet.

Cedik
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

A new lease of life.

Who is to say that a creator would need time or is/was a victim to time.I agree hawkings argument (if used in the right way) is inductive as it can only be assumed that god is affected by time.

The universe was created in a bang right? It continues to expand right?

It is only by thought in my opinion, living thought that anything is created. There has never been a shred of proof that anything could be created in any different way. THat would then allow for the creation of the universe and everything in it. Otherwise everything seems a bit odd don't you think?

I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to say but if you mean that the universe could not have been created differently, I would disagree.

Some would say that the universal constants can be used as proof of God. That if the strength of gravity was slightly more or less, then our universe would not be the same place that it is. If gravity's strength was slightly less, matter would not attract enough to form stars and planets. Or if the strength of gravity was slightly more everything would not have spread out after the big bang. But there are other possible explanations;

~ If there are infinite parrelel universes, we just happen to be in one that the graviational constant is ideal.
~ or... we exist in a simulation controlled by some higher intelligence.
~ or... God created a perfect universe for life to form.

See? There are always other possible explanations. So, God can't be proven in a logical manner.

Well since you were wanting a philosophical debate lets throw in a Greek philosopher.Here is his view on god when he was asked.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus (341 BC – 270 BC)

dragonridr
Well since you were wanting a philosophical debate lets throw in a Greek philosopher.Here is his view on god when he was asked.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus (341 BC – 270 BC)

Is a volcano evil because it can erupt causing destruction and death?

Or is evil only attributed to men's actions? If that's the case, evil exists only because man has free will. If God allows evil to exist then it is only because He gave man the free will to commit evil acts. Honoring His gift of free will to mankind means allowing evil to exist.

Evil could also be used to describe a lack of good.... like darkness is the lack of light. Darkness is non-existent because it is only a word used to describe a lack of light and therefore does not really exist. The same could be said of evil... it doesn't really exist because "evil" is merely the lack of "good".

In a dualistic philosophy, opposing forces are often assigned a positive or negative value. Evil would be the force that obstructs happiness or goodness. But without opposing forces there would be no existence... so can they really be positive or negative?

Cedik
My question to the people who seem to not want to discuss this is.

Can you disprove what I have postulated? Can you think of one thing that is not created in this way? If so I will apologise for my stupidity and ask to have the thread deleted.

I just got here and do not have a great deal of time to read all the other reples.
Since you say, "only life can create life" can you explain what "life" created the "life" which created us???
If you can "fully explain" this? And "God is eternal" will not be acceptable as your statement does not allow for this to be.
I should ask for solid physical proof which would stand up in court, but I won't.

reply to post by Blarneystoner


This isnt about if we have free will its a comment on the mindset of god. Yes mankind has free will what ever thats supposed to truly mean. But its like you being able to prevent someone killing someone and doing nothing.It says something about the individual just because i give my kids the ability to make decisions doesnt mean im not going to step in if there going to do something to hurt themselves or worse.