Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

reply to post by Deetermined

All I got from reading this was the Pope saying in summary, "I will no longer be telling anyone what the "absolute truth" is even though it's not subjective or variable." In other words, "draw your own conclusions".

really?

I still haven't read it.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

May I ask about your history BEFORE you were wiccan? I have a reason to ask this..because many "disgruntled" and former Christians "became wiccans" and I wouldn't be surprised if you have a similar history. You still seem to defend and believe in many dogmas of the RCC and I simply can't see this being the case if you hadn't some Christian "experiences" in your past. As mentioned earlier, you "defending" some dusty things there puzzles me more than anything.

Since it bears directly on this discussion, yeah, I will. I was raised Protestant at the wishes of my Father while having all the exposure I wanted to the RCC through my Mother. In my teens, I got into the Occult and deep into some very bad and outright dangerous areas of black magick. To make what really is quite a long story short enough to be decent? I'll summarize by saying a group of very kind and very well accomplished Wiccan Faithful assisted my friends and myself to get out of the bad mess we got ourselves into.

After doing what I was obligated to in extricating myself from that whole mess and becoming an adult, I took Wicca as my own Faith. There was and is no hard feelings toward the Faith I was raised in. I didn't leave it, as much as I found something I felt a much better fit to my personal belief system and sense of what was right. That's the super simple version and leaves about a book worth out...but it covers what you asked.

So, I'm not like most you may have run into, by the sound of it. I'm not of another Faith and looking back at Christianity with spite or contempt. I have no issues with that belief system at all, in it's own right. Whatever floats someone's boat...and if it makes them a better life for it? All the better. If not? Get out and find something (or nothing, if that be the case) which does make things better.

reply to post by Deetermined



Hey, Deet, I can't read that> www.repubblica.it...

reply to post by stormdancer777


Do you not have Google translate at the top of your screen available to you? If not, I think Adjensen's link provides an english translation.

reply to post by Deetermined


I can't find a translate BRB, thanks

WEll that brightens things up a bit, but just in case...I believe in God! I really do.

"The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience.

"To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil."

He said that the "mercy of God has no limits" and encompassed even non-believers,

Sounds like he is saying you don't need god to me.

reply to post by stormdancer777


Here's the continuation of that...

God's mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere heart and a contrite, the question for those who do not believe in God is to obey his conscience. Sin, even for those who have no faith, there is when you go against conscience. Listen and obey it means, in fact, decide in the face of what is perceived as good or as bad. And on this decision you play the goodness or evil of our actions. Secondly, it asks me if the thought according to which there is no absolute and therefore not even an absolute truth, but only a series of truths relative and subjective, is a error or sin. To begin with, I would not speak, not even to those who believe, the "absolute" truth, in the sense that all is what is untied, what is lacking in any relationship. Now, the truth, according to Christian belief, is the love of God for us in Jesus Christ. So, the truth is a relationship! So much so that each of us takes, the truth, and expresses it from itself, from its history and culture, from the situation in which he lives, etc.. This does not mean that truth is subjective and variable, far from it. But it does mean that it gives us always and only as a journey and life. He did not say not Jesus himself: "I am the way, the truth and the life"? In other words, the truth being ultimately one with love, it requires humility and openness to be sought, welcomed and expressed. Therefore, we must understand well the terms and, perhaps, to exit from the confines of an opposition ... absolute reset in depth the issue.

www.repubblica.it...

I read it that you don't need to believe in god to go to heaven and that message seems very clear. His view seems almost buddhist and the comment is a genuine surprise - although as an agnostic makes eminent sense. The surprise for me is that he has made the opinion in black and white, this has previously been one of those subjects that has divided (even moderate) christians.

reply to post by templar knight

I read it that you don't need to believe in god to go to heaven and that message seems very clear. His view seems almost buddhist and the comment is a genuine surprise - although as an agnostic makes eminent sense. The surprise for me is that he has made the opinion in black and white, this has previously been one of those subjects that has divided (even moderate) christians.

This is what the Pope was quoted as saying:

"God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

I really can't imagine what else this sentence could possibly mean. If you are an atheist and you die and appear before God with a "sincere and contrite heart", you will be forgiven. There's only so many inflections you can put in the Pope's mouth before it becomes clear that you just don't like what he has to say.

I stand by what I said before - there are enough petty problems in the world that people love to capitalize on. The Bible doesn't need to be one of them.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Where in there does it say anything about going to God after you die? How do you know that the Pope didn't use the words "going to him", as in prayer, while you're still alive? See, this is what happens when you choose to use vague dialogue as a substitute for detailed communication. It will only raise more questions than any answers and I don't see anyone benefiting from it.

What great and informed replies....but this....it helps to know the whole Scriptural stance. there's three parts but one is this....at some point it is too late to work......but opposite that is every knee shall bow.....when that happens everyone is elegible~~~since all who believe in Him will be saved~~~ unless it's too late somehow.....as when Yashua said too late to do works....also see 1TIM 4:10.....Yashua will save all men, especially the believers.....

Deetermined
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Where in there does it say anything about going to God after you die? How do you know that the Pope didn't use the words "going to him", as in prayer, while you're still alive? See, this is what happens when you choose to use vague dialogue as a substitute for detailed communication. It will only raise more questions than any answers and I don't see anyone benefiting from it.

Eventually, all atheists appear before God, right? So, if they don't go to God in prayer, because they're atheists and all, and if they DID go to God in prayer, they'd no longer be atheists, what the Pope is saying is more than clear. When an atheist goes to God, no matter how they get there, God will judge them based on they're sincerity and contriteness.

reply to post by windword


But then he follows up that statement a few sentences later by saying,...

"Now, the truth, according to Christian belief, is the love of God for us in Jesus Christ. So, the truth is a relationship!"

So, in essence, is the Pope removing himself from the Christian view when he made his previous statements to this one?

FlyersFan

Deetermined
I think most Christians today expect this, since the Bible talks about a falling away from the church.

Did you see what I posted? He said atheists had to recognize God and repent before getting into heaven. That's not a 'falling away from the church'. That's in line with Church teaching ... both Catholic and Protestant church teaching.

No, he said that the issue for atheists is to follow their conscience.

The previous line, about "going to god" could be interpreted a number of ways. I could easily see that as synonymous with "if they die with a sincere and contrite heart."

mikegrouchy

NavyDoc

In all honesty, that has always been part of Catholic theology--that if one sincerely tries their best, one does not have to be a believer. The belief is that God put his word inside everyone--call it your conscience--and if you sincerely follow that internal message, you still can achieve salvation

It is not new, I learned it in Chatechism class 35-40 years ago.

What NavyDoc said.

Jesus loves two peoples. Those of faith, and atheists. It's the ones waffling around in the middle who can't make up their minds that are in trouble.

Mike

Oh, totally. The faithful are great, of course. And Jesus loooooves those atheists. But he hates those middle guys. Just pure hellfire for them, amirite?


Or maybe that's not the case at all. And maybe that's also the exact opposite of what the pope said.


Your interpretive skills leave something to be desired.

reply to post by Deetermined


I think what is really being argued here is the belief that all things have to be taken care of in life. Some Christians believe that's the only window of opportunity. "If you don't get it in life, it doesn't matter how sincere and contrite you are when you meet your maker." The Pope is clearly decrying this notion.

This notion seems important to some Christians, as it presents an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" scenario that is attractive to the ego. But it doesn't really fit the unlimited mercy they say that an all loving Christian God has.

wrabbit2000
What does it MEAN to be Catholic anymore?

The opportunity to enjoy the fellowship of the living spirit of the all-inclusive, cosmological (universal) Christ and to take full advantage of receiving and appropriating the gift of eternal life, without having to do so as an exclusive club with the idea that everyone ELSE is going to HELL.

What Francis has done is to re-present the Good News of the Gospel as actual GOOD NEWS, and a loving invitation to enjoy and celebrate the risen Christ.

Disappointment with him for saying these things is imho, very amuzing and very funny, if not a little sad and pathetic.

reply to post by NavyDoc


If you don't mind...I'm going to need to see scripture for that.

While i apreciate the sentiment. as an agnostic athiest i couldn't think of anything worse then ending up in heaven. I could only imagine how evangelical and smug the faithful would become once realising they were right. Besides, im a good person and generally go out of my way to help people. Right down to leaving work buying take away to specifically to give to homeless people sleeping rough (i work in the city centre so there are always a few about)l If he doesn't want me in heaven because i didn't beleive in him , despite him giving no evidence to support his exsistance then im fine with that.

It is nice to finally have a religious leader trying to lead by example with the whole love your fellow man regardless of their beliefs issue though.