Abortion - All Emotion, No Answers

yes, AS IN war-profiteering by the defense industries, pushed by industrial cabals linked and contracted to NSA;

drug-profiteering by ALL factions: law enforcement, DEA, Judiciary on one side and international cabals, CityBank and the Queen of England on the other;

disease-profiteering by pharmaceuticals, biological defense industries, hospital industries; mortuary industries; emergency medical systems;

collections-profiteering by banks, collection agencies, TRW and surveillance and databasing industries; finance companies;

LAW-profiteering off changes in and proliferation of laws: by local jurisdictions, states and Fed agencies; to profit law enforcement, court clerks and bailiffs, prison industries, half-way houses and social service agencies.

REMEMBER, the more misery and suffering we have to deal with, the more industries that are going to arise to make money off our suffering!!

Never mind, PEACE AND PROSPERITY FOR ALLl!!!

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Hmmm, first, pro-choice is not pro abortion, it is pro choice.

I think that is what the "pro-life" groups just don't understand. I am pro-choice, but it is because there are far better ways to discourage/reduce abortions than making it illegal (which would only make it far more dangerous).

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs regarding abortion, but beliefs are not meant to be forced upon other people. That does nothing but create dischord.

I know that the mentality here is, "how can you allow someone to murder an innocent baby?" People need to understand that this is their belief, and not expect others to live under it. (Here is an example- As an animal lover/vegan, I wonder how people can murder innocent animals to have shoes, jackets and mcnuggets.) It makes me sick, but I have accepted that "live your life and I will live mine" rule, even if it is difficult for me to allow others to do what I feel unethical.
I don't try to force change upon them, only help them become aware of alternatives.

We all need to understand that you cannot control others. When a fetus is in utero, the care of that life is soley in the hands of the mother. If she wishes to take poor care of herself, you can try to help her, but you cannot stop her. She can smoke, drink, do drugs, eat bad food, ride roller coasters, etc. It is sad, but true. You just gotta let others do as they will to their bodies, and the consequences are on their hands. So basically, until that baby is born, the rest of us have no say in its care and treatment.

Women shoulld not be allowed to Vote. They are not capable of making rational, well anything. So they also should not be allowed to murder their children. "All emotion, No answers" descibes women period. All abortions are for selfish reasons.

dr horacid,you sad pathetic excuse for a human being,keep your useless mentally handicapped ramblings to your self! i see from your location your in a cave,erm-i thought so ,it figures,stay there-muppet!

Originally posted by duh squared
We all need to understand that you cannot control others. When a fetus is in utero, the care of that life is soley in the hands of the mother. If she wishes to take poor care of herself, you can try to help her, but you cannot stop her. She can smoke, drink, do drugs, eat bad food, ride roller coasters, etc. It is sad, but true. You just gotta let others do as they will to their bodies, and the consequences are on their hands. So basically, until that baby is born, the rest of us have no say in its care and treatment.

People are currently free to smoke, but where/when they can smoke is slowly being reduced because of its impact of other human life.

A fetus is not part of the mothers body. It does not have the same genetic coding. The uterus is simply the environment in which it can find nourishment to survive.

Birth is not a defining factor as to when the "rest of us" have a say in its care and treatment. If it were, there would be no trimester guidelines for abortion and Scott Peterson would not have been convicted of second degree murder.

Birth is only a change in environments.

It makes me sick, but I have accepted that "live your life and I will live mine" rule, even if it is difficult for me to allow others to do what I feel unethical.

i aplaud you, at this profound statement. if people could open themselves up for about 2 seconds they would realize this is only alternative to living a healthy life, stay out of my busness or help me with my busness. abortion is the most minute instance of this scenario.

Has an inbetween notion ever been raised where you go without charge fine or penalty only for your first abortion... afterwards means of disapline would proceed on par with number of abortions and circumstance...
There would obviously be a lot of things that would interfere when coming to judgment... Like who is the partner in crime if it were a one night stand, failure in contraception etc... And if this sounds like it would be to complex to fairly judge then our time is more ridden with issues then I thought, this should be a priority subject, this is about human life, what makes up our everyday.

I just don't think that in this day and age where people are poorly educated and sex sells everything you can make it completely illegal.. I especially don't think that those who are not qualified should be given such a great responsibility as to raising a human being...why do you think we have so manty issues today? you think it's rooted from the parents that gave full care and compassion with good morals and financial stabability (not that money is as importnat).

BUt I also don't think that anyone should have limitless amount of abortions available to them... one can't argue that regardless of it's consciousness, it's still taking life. This by all means should not be a way of birth control especially if you are in anyway spiritual.

One should remember that the entire abortion question rests upon public welfare, whether society fully supports the mother of a child or not. Abortion is way too easy and cheap a solution to bottom line bookkeeping. It is a dollar question, one that dispenses with the question "what is human life worth?" It says this "unborn fetus," is NOT human.

Of course throughout history defining what is human and what is not human, is present even in religious scriptures. Leaders in some countries at different times suggest what lives are worth living, and what lives are not worth living. Religious tenets suggest the same thing in some instances, and these matters are reflected in secular action. Search your own beliefs for this and ask questions.

I say a human is a human is a human, and a human has rights if it has human DNA, from the moment of conception. If there is a clear matter of self defense, for example can you not save the mother because of the baby? Those are questions that challenge medical integrity and the very oath "do no harm."

Do you save the mother or do you save the child? It is arguable you save the mother, because the mother can more immediately reproduce.

I think we have a deep problem of hierarchy and authority, but wherever the errors, is it not best to err on the side of life? Life is best both the mother and the child?

My argument is that the general public has been hoodwinked, that abortion and politics is nothing more than propaganda. You must change the law if need be, and do it now. Otherwise all your promises are empty promises as usual. You should hire the best attorneys on this whole matter to save lives. But then again it is all about money. In the end abortion is as racist and vile a thing as it is practiced as anything. But when it is necessary, to save a life, then we have injustice within extensive public trials. In practice that almost never happened years ago, except in backward states.

Let it go back to where it was, when doctors did these things on urgency, not frivolous demands, as a procedure like a nose job or something. That is the result of Roe vs. Wade, a very ghastly legacy.

[edit on 13-11-2004 by SkipShipman]

I just have to reply to this. Since I have been on this forum I have tried to be fair, even handed and open-minded, but on this issue I can no longer maintain this. I believe that abortion should be legal. It is no ones business but the person choosing this, her family, and her conscience.

I have asked this question before and only one person answered. Why is it mostly men who decide and believe they hold a womens body as their property, and if it is just my imagination why are women who believe this is wrong not more vocal?. I know that their are more women who think that this should be outlawed now than there was 10-15 years ago, but why are men more vocal?

As a man I believe it lies in a pathetic attempt to make themselves feel more manly. Is this because you have a self esteem problem. I wonder where this might come from. I find it amusing and somewhat sad that men use religion to advocate their purpose in this area only.

I can think of another religion that has this same mentality towards women's rights and I believe that if men do not stay out of this issue when it has nothing to do with you then the same things that happen in the middle-east will eventually happen here. Stoning, honor killings etc.etc.etc.

I cannot remember such male outcry about issues as important as health care, more money spent on womens health problems like breast, ovarian, uterine cancers but yet you have no problem what-so-ever dictating a women's reproductive rights. This is hypocritical in the extreme.

SO GROW UP AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS (men only)

Out-lawing abortion is again, about government stripping away our freedom. Don't be so naive as to think a government that implements capital punishment and wages war for oil, has any concern for the rights of an unborn fetus. Abortion is as old as birth itself. It will always be an alternative for women whether it's legal or not. You men might as well accept this.

I hope that everyone with this opinion is truly for freedom.

When you say stuff like this are you truly for freedom?
Do you support the repealing of all drug laws?
Are you in favor of making prostitution legal?
How about assisted suicide?
Or *GASP!* removing indecency laws from TV and Radio?

If you are not, then you are not for freedom - you are simply another special interest wanting rights for your issue while ignoring others' freedom.

But then, where does one draw the line?

i guess since humans have been stealing from one another for our entire history that makes it justified? ok cool ill just go steal some stuff and lets see how far i get

since humans have been murdering each other forever; over stupid reasons ; that makes murder justified huh? well we been doing it forever that MUST make it RIGHT huh?

since humans have been Lying for our whole history
That makes Lying a Good thing HUH?
LOL

Freedom?

Freedom to Lie?
Freedom to Steal?
Freedom to Kill Anyone for Any Reason?

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Birth is not a defining factor as to when the "rest of us" have a say in its care and treatment.

To what extent? Should society have the right to force women to have c-sections if a doctor, any quack will do, decides she needs one? Please keep in mind, it is pretty common knowledge that there's a large percentage of c-sections done in this country that are really quite unnecessary.

To the point where a women can be forced out of her workplace due to the harmful exposure to many of the chemicals found in it? ....ya, right, would love to see that kind of acknowledgement from the powers that be that these chemicals are harmful!!

Should the women have medications she needs to keep her functioning be withheld from her for concern of the baby.

How about those fat, obese women or those very underweight ones?? Should we throw them all into a special jail where we can make sure that they eat properly and get adequate excercise?

How about those women whos husbands refuse to take their smoking habit outside, should we insist that they separate and move out of that unhealthy environment?

Just how far would you like to take this one? And well, just how far do you think the ladies will allow it to be taken before they say heck with the men, they can go have fun with the dog!!

How many of the men on this board, if your wife refused you sexual advances for an extended period would be out hunting down a prostitute or at least someone else a little more giving?

It's sad to read how some people see an anti-abortion law as taking away freedom. Such reasoning seems just as surreal as claiming any and every law in a country is just made to take away our freedom.

The freedom to kill someone?
The freedom to kill someone who is not yet born?
The freedom to kill someone who is not yet born because you don't want this person to be your child (for whatever reason) and you don't want to give it away either because one day this child may come looking for you to ask why you didn't want him/her.

"what about woman who get raped?"

It's funny to see these pro-abortion folks try to come up with the most extreme exceptions to support their views and opinion that will eventually be applied to everyone.

Laws and regulations are not based on exceptions you people, they are based on the average. Exceptions require additional sublaws.

Abortion because YOU had "unprotected fun" equals barbaric stupidity.
Abortion because someone else did something to you, is wrong also because.

1. There's a morning after pill.
2. Lots of parents who can not get children would love to adopt yours.

As a last statement I would like to mention that about every woman that once has an abortion that I spoke to, regrets having an abortion with heart and soul.

Originally posted by Jakko
"what about woman who get raped?"

It's funny to see these pro-abortion folks try to come up with the most extreme exceptions to support their views and opinion that will eventually be applied to everyone.

You're not claiming rape is rare are you? Do some research.

Abortion because someone else did something to you, is wrong also because.

1. There's a morning after pill.

It isn't 100% effective and isn't always available to rape victims [especially if they a in a christian hospital.] ..and if the courts decide 'life begins at conception it will get banned as well.. along with the pill.

2. Lots of parents who can not get children would love to adopt yours.

Would you rather a rape victim be forced to endure the added trauma of carrying it full term? That sounds pretty cruel.


----------------------
The rape issue got bright up in the last prolife/woman bashing thread.. and I was stunned and disapointed that people thought rape uncommon. I asked if a rape victim should be called a murderer if she has an abortion.

No-one answered.

I do like the way this issue was posted this time and I credit Taibunsuu for bringing it up in a productive and respectful way.. however it quickly [again] denograted into a misoginist's wet dream. I'm willing to talk about this issue with a view of actually coming up with answers. Banning abortion isn't an answer.. though it's inevitable.

Firstly.. the media is preoccupied with sexual gratification and of course those expectations are imposed on society. There are huge amounts of contraceptives available yet obviously girls are not being educated.. as is obvious with the amount of abortions. Women are expected to 'Accept the consequences' [birth/caregiver/financial] to the detroment of their own futures yet men are not.... WHY? It backs young women/girls into a corner yet men are encouraged by our culture to have sex without consequence. Perhaps the women bashers here could do their part and look at how men contribute to creating abortions and try fix that as well.

Again I feel I must point out that I am pro-choice not pro-abortion.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by riley]

So if abortion is murder, what do you call sending an adult overseas to kill or be killed?

Try and raise a couple of kids, being a single parent and on minimum wage. Until then, you really don't have the right to tell anyone anything about abortion...

what about necessary abortions? they do exist. i am not for abortion as birth control or even to fix a mistake(use a condom),but i don't believe that a woman should have to choose to die and leave behind two beautiful children when she is pregnant and the pregnancy is life threatening within the first month(yea,i speak of myself). had this procedure not been legal,i would have died as well as the life growing inside me,no ifs ands or buts,with 5 different dr opinions, i would have left behind my son and daughter to grow up without a mother. although i was very sad,disturbed,and guilty,everytime i see my little ones smile at me,i am relieved and grateful that i had a choice to stay here in this world with my babies. so for everyone out there that is going to call me a murderer,i say so what. but i feel for a woman who ends up in the same situation as i was and doesn't have a choice.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
So if abortion is murder, what do you call sending an adult overseas to kill or be killed?

Try and raise a couple of kids, being a single parent and on minimum wage. Until then, you really don't have the right to tell anyone anything about abortion...

My wife and I have done that and more to keep afloat. It's what people of respect do.

We have been party to adoption (inbound and outbound) and having kids while not wanting to get pregnant.

I know, some people will say, "well that's you, that may not be for someone else" and you are right.

I can't make my brother-in-law get a real job, or to save and be responcible. I can't make him have reasonable wants and needs in this bling bling country we live in.

I'm still Pro-life and anti-death penalty. Even in the case of rape. So is my wife (in case my penis prevents me from having a voice in this debate).

[edit on 14-11-2004 by KrazyJethro]