Jerusalem isn't mentioned by name in the book of Revelation.

reply to post by FlyersFan

It's things like this that prove that God didn't write Revelation.

I don't believe that Revelation is anything divine, neither i believe that any letters that paul wrote are God inspired on which the chuch based the whole christian doctrine but anyways thats not the topic.

I am just saying that the present israel does not in anyway look like that it would be approved by God forget about being protected divinely from its enemies.

My stand is simple, anyone who is truthful, honest and righteous has God on their side.
Prophecies can be manipulated to fool people. Blind worshipping of prophecies just because names match is so stupid.
That brings me to a point made in the OP that Jerusalem is not mentioned by name, maybe because it was known that the names would be abused by ungodly people to make divine claims.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Either way, Jerusalem happens to be within modern Israel.

If you recognize it as such, then you are supporting criminality.
By international law it is occupied territory that they cannot legally incorporate into their own country.

You cannot just declare Jerusalem the capital of world Jewry, and make it by human decree "Israel".
You can call it so but you cannot make it so in the eyes of God.

The real remnant of the former entity of Israel, Judea, was brought down and destroyed in 70 AD.
That was prophesied and fulfilled.

Revelations speaks of future events - the establishment of the beasts rule, and after his defeat - the final victory of good over evil.

That is a way some people would interpret it. Another way is that the beasts represent something that has always existed but come out into the open to create a crises.

Even if Jerusalem fell in 70 AD, we know that it is not a fulfillment of the text, because a lot of other events outlined in Revelations haven't taken place.

Then you are taking too literally things that should be understood metaphorically.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

.......
It's things like this that prove that God didn't write Revelation.
It's not what a loving and just God would do.
Either that or God did write Revelation ... and he's a real SOB.
It's one or the other ...

fortunately it's neither.

The book of Revelation is not about predictions and prophecy's of future events.It is about one thing and one thing only.The unveiling of Yahoshua...the revealing of Gods salvation/deliverance for ALL mankind.

It clearly states in verse 1:1 is is written metaphorically.There is not only no mention of present day physical city of Jerusalem there is no mention of "The Antichrist" either and about a billion other false interpretations made into false doctrines of men.

The fact is there is no "code" to decipher or mystery to be revealed.It clearly states."The testimony of Yahoshua IS the spirit of prophecy".That's it ......It isn't about the destruction of the temple and Judaism in 70AD it isn't about the 2nd "coming" of Jesus and the impending doom of the planet earth in the final battle of Armageddon with Jesus and his saints against satan and the evil doers.That is a bad blockbuster movie at best.

It is written in metaphor as a testimony of Gods salvation.It states in verse 1:3 those who "read" which doesn't mean just "read" it means ...to distinguish between, to recognize,.....they are blessed which means... to go on, advance, make progress,to confer benefits.In other words...It is the natural process of the salvation that is being done.To KNOW what it is.

.The unnatural process is to believe it's doom and gloom porn.Fodder for fear and paranoia and pronouncing destruction on all those that don't believe in whatever doctrines the false predictor has...in other words ..complete insanity and delusion of the highest order.Yet billions have believed their version.and they propagate those myths like Truth.Condemning billions to eternal hell if they don't repent and believe their doctrines of men.

In a nutshell it's the greatest book ever written that no one can understand by "deciphering or study.It can only be known by revelation from God.There is no deciphering.There is no so and so is the Antichrist or blah blah,blah,,.So all this foolishness about God punishing Jerusalem the city is nonsense..IT'S A CITY!!

The term "city" is a metaphor in scriptures for a type of people and their action.Old Jerusalem from below is like Hagar in slavery with her children.Its an allegory!!Notice there is a lot in scripture about slavery because that is a metaphor also.The word "forgiveness as in "forgiveness of sin does not mean pardoned from guilt as BILLIONS believe.God forbid!! ... God is just!It means freed from bondage/slavery.That is what grace/salvation is.Freedom from bondage of sin...immaturity/imperfection....No one is perfect nor ever will be.Salvation is an infinite process not an event.

WE are all being "freed" from it.YET the majority are still in Jerusalem/Babylon...as slaves.The Jerusalem from above (no not heaven some place OUT there) is free.THAT is what Paul is talking about.

Yahoshua is not coming back to set up residence in a city 1,500 miles cubed! That's pure fantasy.It's a metaphor.Notice Johns vision is packed with math because the scriptures is the basis of one big infinite equation.There is no deciphering to it.It IS what it IS.John isn't "predicting" anything.He is proclaiming what was ,is and will be through a metaphor that is clothed in MATH!......

I guarantee you 666 and 144 are not arbitrary numbers neither are they "numerology or kabbalism or anything "mystic" it's MATH.The perfect language.The equation of EVERYTHING seen and not seen....and until we can add 0+1=? we cannot enter IN like a child.

The book of Revelation ...the greatest book EVER written...do the math.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . which one gets to claim it as their "official" capitol . . .

There is nothing remotely like that in prophecy.
The closest to that in the Bible would be the story of David taking Jerusalem.
He made that his home by paying for the land that he was going to build on, and marrying the daughter of the king of Jerusalem.
It may not say it exactly in those terms but that would have been the reality behind the legend.
The point is that he did it legally within the way things were customarily done in that culture.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by logical7

 

More likely they would believe the Anti-Christ to be their messiah and its stupid to think that AC will rule over and get accepted by a righteous and godly israel more likely that a corrupt, greedy, fornicating group would follow the AC at least till Jesus pbuh returns and kills the AC.

Many of the Israelites converted to Christianity and Islam.
Those who rejected both Jesus and Mohammad are the ones who remained Jews. They will be the ones welcoming the AC as their leader when he arrives, because they rejected the messiah... that too when he appeared exclusively to them. Jewish Israel OPENLY hates Jesus more than any other religious figure. How do you suppose it would end for them? How could the Christians who claim to love Jesus support the very people who insult Jesus?

Hrm. Well, obviously the AC would have to be a jew, they won't accept a gentile. I personally think he will be from the tribe of Dan or descended from Dan.

Why do I say Dan? Because Jesus in Hebrew/Aramaic would be Yeshua or Yahshua which in English would be Joshua. "Jesus" fulfilled the spiritual requirements of The Anointed One first and the Conqueror is ye to come. The jews also have known Joshua as the uncrowned king, more parallelism.

But Dan is said to be a horned serpent (dragon), an adder by the way (in the Hebrew).

Genesis 49:16-17

16 “Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
A viper by the path,
That bites the horse’s heels
So that its rider shall fall backward.


The jews of today are the children of the Pharisees, the ones who were expecting King David 2.0, a warrior and a man of blood and were looking for a warrior king on a white horse and not a rabbi on a donkey.

John the Baptist was the Elijah they were looking for 2000 years ago, so John the Baptist was like Elijah, but who was like Moses? Yahshua ben Nun (Joshua son of Nun) was like Moses. There are parallels between Moses and Christ as well, like the Shining Face of Moses (Ex:29-35) and the transfiguration of Jesus (Mark 9:1-12).

The problem with Jerusalem is there are spiritual applications and literal ones. Lot of metaphors and euphemisms which makes the interpretation treacherous ground. Lets just say what is going on right now in the world today, is an echo of the past. Like looking in a mirror, particularly in regards to the Church. Zion is at the center of this mess, that much is clear.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If you recognize it as such, then you are supporting criminality.
By international law it is occupied territory that they cannot legally incorporate into their own country.

Acknowledging that Israel exists is not the same as "recognizing" it as a legitimate state.
Also, "international law" hasn't done anything to fix the crimes of Israel, instead it has only aided Israel. So its safe to assume that Israel is recognized by "international law".

That is a way some people would interpret it. Another way is that the beasts represent something that has always existed but come out into the open to create a crises.

The beast is an empire / regime occupying a certain geographical region in the middle east.
Babylon existed on that land thousands of years ago. Israel exists on that land now and will evolve into something else that fulfills prophecy. God knows best.

Then you are taking too literally things that should be understood metaphorically.

Well, I don't believe Revelation is open ended. Going by the text, we can see that it isn't.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Going by the text, we can see that it isn't.

So what are you saying, that the universe stops (according to the text)?

You look at the world and see how it can blow up, so you imagine Revelation says that the world blows up?

reply to post by jmdewey60

So what are you saying, that the universe stops (according to the text)?
You look at the world and see how it can blow up, so you imagine Revelation says that the world blows up?

I am more concerned with events that are due to take place within the foreseeable future.

There are multiple ways of interpreting Revelation.
For example, the verse saying the beast made war with the saints can either be understood as meaning :
a) The future anti-Christs kingdom that would make war with the saints.
b) A reference to Israels history of killing saints.

Both could be true, because history can either repeat or rhyme.


If we can agree that Jews and Israel have enormous financial and political powers, then the puzzles of Revelation become easier to solve. Jews control world banking today and they will continue to control world banking tomorrow. That is how the whore / Jerusalem will "fornicate" with governments. And that is how her merchants get rich. And that is how the nations get drunk (deceived) on the wine of her "fornication".

Revelations speaks of a new world order, (or at least a new middle eastern order ) with Jerusalem as the crown jewel. That is until it is uprooted and destroyed.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . make war with the saints.

The Beast is at war with God.
The practical way on the ground to fight God is by killing those God loves.
Whatever God built, the Beast wants to destroy.
In fact, the Beast would be perfectly happy if all people were destroyed.
Rather than a world political system, it is civilization deconstruction.
People becoming beast-like, killing each other.
The Beast "gets its authority" from the pre-creation world, before God subdued it.
God has to intervene because man on his own is powerless to defeat the Beast.
The Beast does not "win", if that is what you (probably not) think happens.

(double post sorry)

Yes I agree with much what Rex has said, just reading Rev12 you will see this is symbolic lanuage to show a personal and spiritual message to each and everyone of us. Yes it is God that reveals these through the Holy Ghost. And here is what our understanding is of this in a nutshell:

Scripture talks about the soul bride,(Isa 61v10) and that is why the soul is symbolically female because it recieves the seed/word from testimony and it can bear the Christ child mind. (Also seen in Rev12 the Woman on the moon, the moon symbolic for the testimony) Anyhow, this "New Jerusalem" it's speaking about here is symbolic for the reborn souls, the 2nd Man Adam reborn from the 1st Man Adam, prepared to be the servants which God himself will use them being holy and acceptable to him.

The book of Revelations is truly a supernatural piece of scripture which only God himself could have created seeing how beautifully it weaves all scripture sewing Genesis to Revelations. This is what Jesus said that many will desire to see these things but will not. Do you see it, do we see it?

Originally posted by logical7
I am just saying that the present israel does not in anyway look like that it would be approved by God forget about being protected divinely from its enemies. My stand is simple, anyone who is truthful, honest and righteous has God on their side..

Then every country on the planet would not be approved by God. EVERY ONE.
And some of the worst offenders are the so called 'religious countries'.
If people are going to point at Israel as an example of something God wouldn't approve of.
They'd best look at all the others. NONE of them would make the grade .... not a single one.

Originally posted by Rex282
The book of Revelation ...the greatest book EVER written...do the math.

I'm glad you are so happy with it. But no ... I'm not buying what you are saying.
It's just a mess and it's been bought into by fundamentalist christians as a road map
for the end of the world. I see it as a stumbling block to truth ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rex282
The book of Revelation ...the greatest book EVER written...do the math.

I'm glad you are so happy with it. But no ... I'm not buying what you are saying.
It's just a mess and it's been bought into by fundamentalist christians as a road map
for the end of the world.

I see it as a stumbling block to truth ...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the book of Revelation..and yes the religious have twisted it into their perversion of The Truth.The book is not the stumbling block what they believe is.They are two completely different things.Condemning it because they have made it into their doom and gloom travesty has nothing to do with the book.

My suggestion is if it's a stumbling block don't read it .It will not help anyone one bit if they don't understand what it means and what it's purpose is.

Originally posted by Rex282
My suggestion is if it's a stumbling block don't read it .

Oh .. it's not a stumbling block for me. I've read it .. I know what's in it ... I find it irrelevant so I ignore it. But it's a stumbling block for millions of people who read it and take it literally. Literally .. like thinking God is going to punish Jerusalem in the here and now simply because 2,000 + years ago some people in Jerusalem killed some prophets. That kind of behavior from a God would be insane.

reply to post by Rex282

The book of Revelation ...the greatest book EVER written...do the math.

You mean the same book that you've told us over and over again that you don't understand?

The stories in the Bible are both literal and metaphorical. Events happen literally, yet there's always an additional meaning to them too. Just like most of the prophecy is twofold. They are events that have already happened, yet the way that they are worded tells us that they are going to happen again, until they are completed thoroughly.

When the Bible mentions the "house of Israel", it was referring to a literal people as well as metaphorically representing all future followers of Jesus in the New Testament. You can't disregard the literal and skip straight to the metaphorical, otherwise you'll never understand the significance of what's being said or how the Old Testament is tied to the New Testament.

reply to post by FlyersFan


It's a stumbling block for Rex282 because he thinks anyone who studies the Bible is worshiping it and he himself doesn't understand it. This is why he comes down so hard on anyone who reads it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Literally .. like thinking God is going to punish Jerusalem in the here and now simply because 2,000 + years ago some people in Jerusalem killed some prophets.

Technically, when Jesus returns, he'll be punishing the whole world, Jerusalem included. He said he would also cut down every nation that comes against Jerusalem. We all know that the Muslims and Jews are fighting for control over Jerusalem. It's not that hard to figure out that LITERAL events are playing out, just like they were prophesied about.

reply to post by Deetermined

He said he would also cut down every nation that comes against Jerusalem.

Who said that?Revelation doesn't say that, and who are you calling Jerusalem?
Are you ignoring the problem mentioned in the thread title?

I don't think that what we are seeing today in the news is similar to any biblical prophecy.
Revelation is talking about the holy church that Jesus established by his life on earth as a man, and afterwards as a divine glorified being in heaven who is virtually god.
The city withstands the attacks from its enemies, the ones who at least in theory exist without the church and the improving spirit of God over the earth.

. . . when Jesus returns . . .

That is properly understood metaphorically in Revelation, that Jesus and God live spiritually among the believers as a group (the church), the city "that came down from heaven".

reply to post by jmdewey60


In case you didn't notice, the city that comes down from heaven is a perfect one, not the one we're seeing today. There are physical descriptions of this city given in the book of Revelation along with dimensions of it. The Bible also tells us what our bodies will be like, that we won't experience sorrow or pain, etc.

It helps to put the whole Bible together to understand it and not just pieces of it. As for what physically happens to Jerusalem, is well described in the book of Zechariah, which is the Old Testament equivalent of Revelation. Just like some stories give more detail than others, depending on which book you're reading (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), you have to put them all together to get the full picture.