Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake - PART 2

Thank you Uphill and HappyKat for the replies re liquid nitrogen. It sounds like it comes with its own problems - but - is it worse than not using it at all? Expense to me is not a consideration, money is just ink on paper (or in Canada's case now ink on plastic). I'm sure there's enough nitrogen around the planet that could work or they could produce it to use. As far as the side effects, yes, but couldn't they consider using it above the 77K temperature then (gas form?) Couldn't they build some containment around the rods or the openings where it's melted through, put it in and put a lid on it? Anyone using it would have an air hose to breath through?

I just don't believe there's no better solution out there than running water 24/7/40 years on them. I suggested before burying it as others have and can't recall why, but way back in the original thread there was an explanation why that wouldn't work. I still think burying the ENTIRE plant in zeolite/dirt would take care of all the surface problems and then they'd just have to deal with the underground leaks.

This sitting around with a finger in the dyke here and a finger in the dyke there while it leaks, pours, spews, teeters, disintegrates is ridiculous. They simply aren't doing everything possible to stop this and that's why I think there's such a 'hush' on the entire schmoz. It's a dog and pony show :-(

wishes
Thank you Uphill and HappyKat for the replies re liquid nitrogen. It sounds like it comes with its own problems - but - is it worse than not using it at all? Expense to me is not a consideration, money is just ink on paper (or in Canada's case now ink on plastic). I'm sure there's enough nitrogen around the planet that could work or they could produce it to use. As far as the side effects, yes, but couldn't they consider using it above the 77K temperature then (gas form?) Couldn't they build some containment around the rods or the openings where it's melted through, put it in and put a lid on it? Anyone using it would have an air hose to breath through?

I just don't believe there's no better solution out there than running water 24/7/40 years on them. I suggested before burying it as others have and can't recall why, but way back in the original thread there was an explanation why that wouldn't work. I still think burying the ENTIRE plant in zeolite/dirt would take care of all the surface problems and then they'd just have to deal with the underground leaks.

This sitting around with a finger in the dyke here and a finger in the dyke there while it leaks, pours, spews, teeters, disintegrates is ridiculous. They simply aren't doing everything possible to stop this and that's why I think there's such a 'hush' on the entire schmoz. It's a dog and pony show :-(

Consider this; if you put water in a closed vessel and heat it above to the boiling point without some kind of pressure relief valve you will blow up the container in a spectacular fashion. In fact there are formulae for the capacity of relief valve needed for a particular tank size and BTU input. Just think of a pressure cooker on your stove with a plugged vent system. You would be very lucky if all it did was blow a huge hole in the ceiling. And all of the above applies to pressure vessels designed for high pressure use.

There is no difference between using water or liquid nitrogen except the temperatures at which they boil. Water turns to steam at a volumetric ratio of about 1000 to 1. Liquid nitrogen has a similarly high conversion ratio and in the concrete containment pool, which is already weakened, it would soon blow it apart if not vented freely to the atmosphere. That is why, as noted in my post, they store it in Dewar containers and allow it to boil away to keep from blowing the Dewar flask to bits.

You were right though, in a way, about the cost; but the amounts needed to cool the fuel rods would be enormous. And again, I must state that any water trapped in the concrete of the containment pool or the fuel rods, or for that matter any other items in the pool, would freeze and cause irreparable damage.

I would like to add this to my last post.

If you used just the nitrogen gas and no liquid it would be a better insulator than a heat transfer medium. The same as water vapor could not remove heat as effectively as liquid water.

happykat39
I would like to add this to my last post.

If you used just the nitrogen gas and no liquid it would be a better insulator than a heat transfer medium. The same as water vapor could not remove heat as effectively as liquid water.

Hmm... ?If you can't have the stuff contained entirely then contain it with a vent - if the casings might shrink more than the rods then find away to have them 'in' something so if they freeze and crack and crumble it doesn't matter and once they're 'cooled' then seal it up and bury it... I try and look for the end result and then solve all the obstacles that get in the way...

I have no experience/background in nuclear or chemistry and can tell from your post nitrogen is not a quick fix - my overall point is there must be some or other mediums/substances/chemicals that can replace the water and deal with this better than what they're doing. Way back when I wondered about some type of chemical foam to cover/encase them. There has to be """something"'""??? I just get so p%%&)d every time I think about it...

I still think they should just bury the entire site and yes, there's risks of this and that and the other. Who was the brainiac that thought putting spent fuel pods way up high was a 'great idea' anyway?!?

reply to post by wishes


In this case water is the most efficient heat transfer medium. It removes heat in the form of steam and/or by direct contact transfer. The water is then replaced with cooler water as it heats up. AND, there is an ocean full of the stuff right there.

However, you are also right that there should be a better way. There are heat transfer fluids that are meant to be used in a two stage process. The fluids are basically a type of oil and therefore can carry away an enormous amount of heat and won't easily boil away. This means that you could fill the pools with the transfer fluid and seal it up. Then you could run it through a heat exchanger system using water to cool the oil and recycle it through the pool and/or melted down reactor core continuously. Then water could be used as the secondary coolant to cool the heat transfer fluid without contaminating it with radioactive debris. With the proper materials in the heat transfer coils to withstand the ravages of salt water the ocean could be used as the secondary coolant without all the seawater contamination they now have and no need to store megatons of the stuff to contain the radioactivity.

In fact, a large enough heat transfer coil unit could be cooled with just forced air and avoid the need for water at all. But with the ocean so close I would still go with water and salt resistant coils.

www.truthdig.com...

The Nuclear Omnicide by Harvey Wasserman

To this day, Three Mile Island’s owners claim no humans were killed by radiation there, an assertion hotly disputed by local downwinders. Indeed, Dr. Alice Stewart established in 1956 that a single X-ray to a pregnant woman doubles the chance that her offspring will get leukemia. During the accident at Three Mile Island, the owners crowed that the meltdown’s radiation was equivalent “only” to a single X-ray administered to all area residents.

Meanwhile, if the airborne fallout from Three Mile Island and Chernobyl could do that kind of damage to both infants and the nonhuman population on land, how is Fukushima’s continuous gusher of radioactive water affecting the life support systems of our oceans? In fact, samplings of 15 tuna caught off the coast of California indicate all were contaminated with fallout from Fukushima. Instant as always, the industry deems such levels harmless. The obligatory comparisons to living in Denver, flying cross country and eating bananas automatically follow.

But what’s that radiation doing to the tuna themselves? And to the krill, the phytoplankton, the algae, amoeba and all the other microorganisms on which the ocean ecology depends? Cesium and its Fukushima siblings are already measurable in Alaska and northwestern Canada. They’ll hit California this summer. The corporate media will mock those parents who are certain to show up at the beaches with radiation detectors. Concerns about the effect on children will be jovially dismissed. The doses will be deemed, as always, “too small to have any impact on humans.”

But reports of a “dead zone” thousands of miles into the Pacific do persist, along with disappearances of salmon, sardines, anchovies and other ocean fauna. Of course, atomic reactors are not the only source of radioactive fallout. Atmospheric bomb testing from 1945 to 1963 raised background radiation levels throughout the ecosphere. Those isotopes are still with us. Burning coal spews still more radiation into our air, along with mercury and other lethal pollutants. Fracking for gas draws toxins up from the earth’s crust.

Has there been any talk anymore of using muon detecting technology to see where the cores are currently. Or is that another thing that just doesn't matter cause all is perfectly fine over there?

magnum1188
Has there been any talk anymore of using muon detecting technology to see where the cores are currently. Or is that another thing that just doesn't matter cause all is perfectly fine over there?

They do not want us to know where the cores are. I am not too sure they want to know themselves.

Can't frighten the public. Bad for votes. Treat everyone like a mushroom, Keep them in the dark and feed them on Bull Dung.

P

pheonix358

magnum1188
Has there been any talk anymore of using muon detecting technology to see where the cores are currently. Or is that another thing that just doesn't matter cause all is perfectly fine over there?

They do not want us to know where the cores are. I am not too sure they want to know themselves.

Can't frighten the public. Bad for votes. Treat everyone like a mushroom, Keep them in the dark and feed them on Bull Dung.

P

I see that...we are the mushrooms in the equation.

This seems like the perfect president for anyone that ever wanted to know if their govt would tell them how bad things ready really were.

magnum1188
Has there been any talk anymore of using muon detecting technology to see where the cores are currently. Or is that another thing that just doesn't matter cause all is perfectly fine over there?

Yeah, purplechive mentioned it a few lages ago and I posted about it here back in September.

You're the seven year lurker, eh?

Welcome to ATS!

jadedANDcynical


Yeah, purplechive mentioned it a few lages ago and I posted about it here back in September.

You're the seven year lurker, eh?

Welcome to ATS!

Yes I am. Lurking around most of the pages on threads all over. Thisthread along witb part one is very difficult to follow witb the sheer amount of information on the two threads.

Thank you for that link. I appreciate it.

Unit 1 to 4 side of South Discharge Channel

Rather significant detection of Cs-134 and Cs-137 suddenly....it usually is "Below Detection Limit".

www.tepco.co.jp...

www.tepco.co.jp...

See prior sampling here, calendar at the end of the page:
www.tepco.co.jp...

It is wonderful to see polite, intelligent conversations on the thread again!! Thanks Folks!!

- Purple Chive

Video of Groundwater Bypass System

photo.tepco.co.jp...

-Purple Chive

Wow, just wow!!

Is this thread still going on?

Seems some people have really lots of time in their hands

What, I mean, really what is going on at Fukushima? This remind me of the "swine flu" threads, fearmongering and all!

Has not the Japanese government assured that everything is fine and controlled now? Why doubt it? Nothing else to do? A nice hobby or something?

Wow, just wow!!

reply to post by mactaties

Maybe 100,000 years from now someone will be saying the same thing.
And maybe something like, "What cancer everyone is born with cancer, it's better than being a defect (mutation) right!".
So it goes ...

reply to post by donlashway


Unfortunately, a cancer will be a cancer, Fukushima, cigarettes, fluorised water, pollution? We will die and never get the answer

How about no one takes the bait.

Reminds of of a phoenix rising from the ashes.

This thread was going so well.

They're back!

Lol

P

@phoenix358 - yes...don't feed them ;-)

From Fukushima-Diary -

Tepco plans to discharge pumped groundwater to the sea this coming June
Posted by Mochizuki on April 5th, 2014 · No Comments
Following up this article.. Fukushima fishery cooperative gave Tepco the approval to discharge bypassed groundwater to the sea [URL]

Tepco is already planning to discharge the pumped groundwater to the Pacific this coming June. On 4/4/2014, Tepco published the report about their plan to increase the contaminated water storage. In this report, they made 4 different simulations. In 3 of 4 simulations, Tepco assumed they can discharge the groundwater pumped up from the bypass wells this June. Tepco is supposed to explain to the local governments about the “bypass plan”, but they already expect to obtain their approval.

The pumped groundwater contains significant level of radiation as well, however it would not be filtered before discharging. (cf, [Coincidence ?] 3 highest densities of Tritium are “exactly 1,200,000 Bq/m3″ in groundwater bypass [URL 2]) www.tepco.co.jp...

Significant level of cesium-134/137 from 3 of 3 bamboo shoot samples in Yokohama
Posted by Mochizuki on April 4th, 2014 · 3 Comments
Significant level of Cs-134/137 were measured from 3 of 3 bamboo shoot samples in Yokohama. Over 3 years have passed but still Cs-134/137 are detected from food. The sampling location is Yokohama. The samples were collected on 4/1/2014. The highest reading was 34 Bq/kg (Cs-134/137), the lowest was 15 Bq/kg. Because Cs-134 is measured from all of these bamboo shoots, it is from Fukushima for 100% sure.

Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare states these products are not distributed. www.mhlw.go.jp...

Tepco can’t even investigate why ALPS stopped purifying contaminated water / Too radioactive to study
Posted by Mochizuki on April 3rd, 2014 · 2 Comments
Following up this article.. 21 tanks and 1km of pipe must be decontaminated due to the system failure of ALPS / Not known when to reboot ALPS [URL]
Tepco cannot even investigate what caused the system problem in multiple nuclide removing system ALPS (Advanced Liquid Processing System). The system has shut down 3 times within 10 days. This is about the first shut down. Tepco found that one of the 3 systems did not purify the contaminated water on 3/18/2014. Before they notice this problem, they already contaminated 21 tanks and 1km length of the pipes. They assume the problem was in a filter of this system. However, they can’t investigate the part due to the excessively high level of radiation. Tepco states they need to decontaminate the part but they haven’t even been able to start cleaning the filter. Tepco’s spokes man commented they are in the process of preparation but it’s not known when they complete the investigation.

ALPS is practically considered to be one of the national projects on contaminated water issue. Tepco’s president Hirose stated to Japanese Prime Minister Abe to complete purifying all the contaminated water by the end of March in 2015. The current contaminated water volume is approx. 450,000 m3. ALPS is required to process 1,960 m3/day of contaminated water from this summer. However ALPS hasn’t been in the full operation since early 2013. The cause of this latest trouble hasn’t even been identified either. There is a possibility that ALPS is only an imaginary technology to swerve the domestic / international criticisms for a short term. www.tepco.co.jp...

Yes... all's well with Fukushima (sarcasm)

From Fairewinds - new studies confirm 20 msv/year enough to cause cancer

Cancer Risk To Young Children Near Fukushima Daiichi Underestimated
Comprising over 400,000 workers from 15 counties, the study found increased cancer mortality among nuclear workers exposed to an average of 2 millisieverts per year. That’s just one tenth of the allegedly safe 20 millisieverts per year allowed in Fukushima!

In this video we’ll see that the public is being misled buy governments and major media into a false sense of safety regarding nuclear fallout, obstructing the ability of citizens to be fully informed so that we can make sound decisions that direct our democracies to safe-energy futures.

The video transcript and video that shows the reports they're talking about are at:
fairewinds.org...

I feel I've become desensitized with Fukushima. First - we find out they have been spilling this stuff into the pacific by accident or just under the radar, and now we hear they are planning to do this with unfiltered junk on purpose (I'm sure it's always been unfiltered). We find out bamboo shoots and other foods continue to be contaminated and pretty soon we will have it confirmed that one of these cores truly did melt through the ground and is lost forever. I don't why but I don't feel much of anything over it. Even when I hear the phrase "they assume it will work". This has to be due to the total dependence I personally have on these people to fix this thing and the fact that I'm powerless to change a darn thing.

All I can do is shake my head and wonder why. Why did they build this where they did. Why did they not meet or exceed the most stringent building and design guidelines known on the planet. Why did they not have 3 or more backup plans knowing it was sitting on the ring of fire. Why can't they fix it without poisoning massive amounts of life. We are the guinea pig generation. We will know truly how much this stuff can impact earth in another 20-30 years. Not what I foresaw for my kids' world.