China for World super power in next 40 years

Originally posted by poirot
The fact is that China IS a isolationist and defensive nation. Why the Admiral Zhang He that discovered the Americas BEFORE Columbus didn't colonized them? If the Chinese were aggressive like the Europeans, you Americans would be speaking Chinese!

This has never been close to being proven. "Ming shi" and the "Ming shi lu," that provide a detailed record of the voyages but make no mention of the Americas.

Im taking it you know about the book 1421 written by Gavin Menzies a man that created this thoery. First this guy does not even speak nor read Chinese. That should be a warning right light there.

His work is full of so many leaps and guesses, and he often glosses over important facts. Many Chinese scholars find his work to be bunk and they are not alone.

Man I wish I could remember the name of the show he was on and scholars from China and Europe made him look like a fool. They ripped apart just about everyone of his theories and he was standing there like a deer caught in the headlights.

[edit on 13-11-2004 by ShadowXIX]

Why can't weeee be friends? Why can't weeee be friends why can't weee be friends....

George W Bush�s economic policies seem to be emanating from a fiscal and historical vacuum. The current issue to which I am referring is the US reaction to China. First I will outline the problem, then I will outline some of the solutions Bush is trying to work through. Then you can make up your own mind.
Following the dramatic collapse of the USSR and the hideous social destruction visited upon that country by the now infamous �shock therapy� tactics proposed by Sachs and Aslund, China recognized that remaining in economic isolation indefinitely was tantamount to national suicide. However, wishing to avoid the Russian nightmare, China chose to proceed slowly. Throughout the early 1990�s, China began to allow international investment to flow into the country. American corporate culture - positively salivating over the prospect of a billion new consumers being primed to suck up US goods and services - was happy to pile billions of dollars in investment into the country, as China lobbied (unsuccessfully) for entry into the World Trade Organization. But then in 1997 a crisis in Asian markets sparked by speculative foolishness in Japan rolled through, highlighting many weaknesses in China�s fledgling banking system. The economic hardship that followed would be named �the Asian Bug�.
Far from rolling over, China learned from its mistakes and slugged on, gradually rebuilding its wounded banks and rebuilding confidence in its markets. It worked. In 2001, in response to the September 11 attacks, the US finally allowed China to enter the WTO (it had been the sole veto voice for the last ten years, stubbornly refusing to de-link trade from human rights; is this because America is such a moral country? I think not). The idea was that by involving China in the world economy, it would help ease the instability in US markets. It worked, but not quite the way the US imagined. Rather than suddenly opening up new markets for US goods, China pegged its Yuan to the USD at approximately 10.2:1. This ratio is ridiculously low, and remains so to this day, much to the chagrin of the US. This is essentially �cheating�, although that is not a moral judgment; the US cheats all the time. That is just part of international business.
China is the world�s economic miracle. Its economy has been growing at unprecedented levels (as high as 10% per annum) for over half-a-decade now, and is not showing any serious signs of slowdown. For a bit of insight into what this kind of growth entails, I will provide to you with a couple of very interesting numbers:

1. Over half of the concrete (55%) poured in the world in 2003 was poured in China.
2. Over one third of the steel (36%) consumed in the world in 2003 was consumed in China.
3. Nearly one third of coal (30%) burned in the world in 2003 was burned in China.

The fact that China refuses to revalue its currency (or at least let it float to more reasonable levels) has been described as an annoyance to the US Administration. That could well be the biggest understatement since somebody called the US military �pretty strong�. China�s policy is essentially crushing both the US economy and its industrial capacity, as the world flocks to China to purchase its manufactured goods which enjoy the double benefit of being built with cheap (read: slave) labour and being traded internationally with an artificially low currency. Simply put, American manufacturers cannot compete with the �China Price�. Factories are shutting down.
Now lets investigate the Bush response to the China threat.

GWB Response #1
First, in order to spur exports, Bush abandoned (to the dismay of the international community) the traditional strong dollar policy, wherein the US would act as the consumer of globally made goods. Bush allowed the dollar to slide.
Now this at times is a good policy. For instance, Winston Churchill should have taken that approach in 1946 in Britain. But this is not Britain. It is also not 1946. And George W Bush is no Winston Churchill. The problem with this policy here and now is that no matter how much the USD devalues, the Chinese Yuan goes down with it, because the Yuan is pegged to the dollar. It doesn�t matter how much the USD goes up and down to China, because they keep the Yuan pegged at that approximate 10.2:1. The only rationale for GWB�s move is that he is perhaps playing economic �chicken� with China, hoping that if the USD falls far enough it will be forced to revalue the Yuan. So far, however, China shows no sign of budging.

GWB Response #2
Have you heard about Operation Summer Pulse �04? It was only the biggest US military exercise ever conducted in peacetime, and it happened in - you guessed it - the South China Sea. After playing hardball with Iraq to ensure that its economic will be followed, America thought it would be a good time to show China a little bit of its muscle. It should be noted that this exercise failed to elicit the desired response. Instead of rolling over and seeing the errors of its ways, China performed a major budget overhaul declaring that by 2014 it would be capable of defending against seven full battle groups (it currently has the defensive infrastructure to counter no more than two; America has twelve). Many on the left have speculated that this exercise took place because America has the moral responsibility to defend Taiwan, but this is poppycock. This opinion is derived from the simple fact that America�s progressive left has eliminated the concept of economics from all intellectual discourse. Economics is seen by the progressive left as a tool of the wealthy, and solely in the dominion of the right. This has resulted in the blinding of the progressive left, who seem to have forgotten that one of the most important economic theorists in the history of the modern world was a man named Karl Marx. Nobody has ever accused Marx of pandering to the right. America does not act out of moral responsibility, but purely out of fiscal responsibility.

GWB Response #3
Since China appears to be unfazed by either America�s dangerous fiscal policy or its military might, GWB is now resorting to more crude forms of persuasion: protectionism. In early November this year, Mr. Free Trade himself decided that China�s rising control over the US economy could only be checked if it resorted to tariffs, and indeed it has done so, citing a special �safeguard� clause it inserted into the 2001 WTO entry agreement. I searched a couple of American news sites for information on this decision (CNN, Fox, ABC) and much to my surprise (I am being sarcastic) there was nothing there. It was as if the meeting - another escalation in this scary entente - never happened. The question is: how will China react?

The answer is that yes, China is on its way to becoming a superpower. Whether or not it overtakes the US, however, has very little to do with China itself, and much more to do with America and her flaky economic policies.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by ahsingjai

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by plutonian
China has been a defensive nation, its empire is based on fair foreign diplomacies, so it would be strong, but not taking the place of USA which like to stick their nose into other's business.

Tell that to the people of Tibet, where does this myth of China as a defensive nation come from?

It's not myth and Tibet is not a country. It's part of China. Even the dalai lama acknowledges that.

Was that the same Dalai Lama thats had to go into exile when his people revolted against China and had thousands and thousands of his people killed.

The same Dalai Lama that claims (and China denies) that, ''overall, 6,000 monasteries have been closed or destroyed and 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since 1950.''



In 1950 Red China Invades Tibet; Tibetan army destroyed in battle at Chamdo.


In 1959 the Dalai Lama fleed to India. 87,000-100,000 Tibetans die in anti-Chinese revolt.

By 1978 � Visitors find only 8 temples left in TAR, down from 2,700 in 1959

Real defensive they invaded a indepandent people that didnt want to be part of China. And anyone that said anything against them was killed. There has been a systematic effort to wipe out Tibetan religion and culture.

Please Defensive LOL

www.dushkin.com...
www.buddhanet.net...

[edit on 13-11-2004 by ShadowXIX]

Ok, quit talking about something 30 years ago and less focus on the present. Search Dalai Lama tibet part of china

You will find 2004 articles that he doesn't seek indepedence from China. This is from the exile leader.

Futher more, Tibet has been a Chinese territory for a long time. During the dynasty times, the EMPEROR was the one who appoints the dalai lama.

China is not a defensive nation. the dalai lama has accepted it to be a part of china as he knows that a "free tibet" is nothing but a dream now. The US is too busy engaged in Taiwan and India is strengthning ties with china. Also tibet stands to gain more from the chinese than being independant itself.
Tibet was invaded, China claims Siberia, funds insurgents in nepal(maoists) etc etc..these are not he signs of a "defensive" xenophobic entity.


[edit on 14-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

Tibet was a poor, cow herding province before the communists came. At least now they are a big tourist attraction with hundreds of thousands of tourist coming everyyear and with some industry. Without the communists Tibet would be a EXTREMElY third world place but now they are at least second world.

Tibet was not invaded. It was a part of the Qing Dynasty which was the last Chinese Dynasty period and look in any map of the Qing Dynasty, Tibet was a part of China and even Mongolia was. China lossed a lot of land in the revolutions.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by COWlan]

@Deadalus

Indian dude. In terms of aggression, no one can compare with you inidans. Take a look at this website and spin this one for us. China is small potato compared with what you peace-loving hindus have done. Plus, we chinese are twice richer than you and live on average 10 years longer than you so you better take care of your own business before sticking your nose over here.

Website depicting Indian atrocity against its many minorities: the muslims, the sikhs, chrisitians, buddists, kashmiries, etc.

indianterrorism.bravepages.com...

"Whether or not one agrees with President Clinton's policy in Kosovo, we went there to stop the `ethnic cleansing' of the Kosovars by the Serbian government. Yet we have averted our glance from a similar campaign throughout India , a situation the Indian Supreme Court described as `worse than a genocide.' This ethnic cleansing has taken the lives of over 250,000 Sikhs since 1984, over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, over 60,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988, and thousands upon thousands of Dalits, Assamese, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minority peoples."

[edit on 14-11-2004 by Hawkssss]

Originally posted by COWlan


Tibet was not invaded. It was a part of the Qing Dynasty which was the last Chinese Dynasty period and look in any map of the Qing Dynasty, Tibet was a part of China and even Mongolia was. China lossed a lot of land in the revolutions.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by COWlan]

Most of the world belonged to Mongolia at one time China, Russia, the Middle east. So if you take a map of that time you would see it all belonged to Genghis Khan. So Mongolia have the right to invade all those countries if we follow your logic.

Old maps This is the same logic Hilter used to start invading other countries. Heck at one point in time Germany controlled that land. Im sure he had maps and everything.

Originally posted by ahsingjai
[

Ok, quit talking about something 30 years ago and less focus on the present. Search Dalai Lama tibet part of china

You will find 2004 articles that he doesn't seek indepedence from China. This is from the exile leader.

Futher more, Tibet has been a Chinese territory for a long time. During the dynasty times, the EMPEROR was the one who appoints the dalai lama.

Oh yes lets forget the past and pretend it never happened. 30 yrs ago that was so long ago People shouldnt go around calling China a defensive nation when they invaded a independant people killing over a million of them.

If I go back far enough parts of every country belonged to another that does not give anyone the right to invade and kill hundreds of thousands of people. If I go back to Roman times all of europe belonged to Italy. All the known world belonged to Mongolia at on time, Most of the world belonged to Greece.

What a flawed way of thinking

"killing over a million of them. "

Prove please! Plus this is peanuts compared with what the Europeans did to the native americans and africans.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
"killing over a million of them. "

Prove please! Plus this is peanuts compared with what the Europeans did to the native americans and africans.

For the over a Million I take the word of the Dalia Lama on that one. Over the Chinese version of the story. I can find evidence of 85,000-100,000 people killed in one uprising though.

About the Europeans thats very true and somewhat the point I was making. There is no such thing as a defensive country at one time or just about every country or people has invaded another. Some hundreds of years ago, some only 30 years ago some even as we speak.

Provide that link to Dalai Lama saying "1 million killed" or you should just admit you are frigging lying.

that's why you hypocrites should just stfu about human rights because no other race can compare with you when it comes to genocide and human rights violation in history.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by Hawkssss]

Originally posted by Hawkssss
Provide that link to Dalai Lama saying "1 million killed" or you should just admit you are frigging lying.

that's why you hypocrites should just stfu about human rights because no other race can compare with you when it comes to genocide and human rights violation in history.

[edit on 14-11-2004 by Hawkssss]

I already gave the link but Ill give it again just for you.

1.2 million

"The Dalai Lama claims (and China denies) that, overall, 6,000 monasteries have been closed or destroyed and 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since 1950."

www.dushkin.com...


Oh and "because no other race can compare" do you even know what race I am? I dont remember telling you so you should STFU.

Your the hypocrite pretending China is pure and innocent and defensive. I never made any such claim about any country.

No. I never said china is innocent. What I am saying is that china is no worse and no better when it comes to aggression and human rights violation. Yet, all you hypocrites would like to bring human rights up as if it was a patented chinese right only. So stfu next time when you want to use human rights because that's the most stupid thing to say because what you people did to native americans and africans (I assume you are an hypocritic american)

Originally posted by Hawkssss
No. I never said china is innocent. What I am saying is that china is no worse and no better when it comes to aggression and human rights violation. Yet, all you hypocrites would like to bring human rights up as if it was a patented chinese right only. So stfu next time when you want to use human rights because that's the most stupid thing to say because what you people did to native americans and africans (I assume you are an hypocritic american)

While yes you can see in my avatar I am American but I am even part Native American so I dont need you to lecture me about American History.Even the Native Americans are not innocent they tended to do the same thing but to different tribes of Native Americans.

Please tell me where I ever said the US or any country was innocent.

I had to bring up Tibet because someone in a earlier post claimed that China was a only peaceful and purley defensive nation. So I was just trying to show that china is no worse and no better when it comes to aggression and human rights. So really we where making the same point.

good since we are on the same page. Every country and race including china and US have violated human rights throughout history and I have never said china is free from this vice.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
good since we are on the same page. Every country and race including china and US have violated human rights throughout history and I have never said china is free from this vice.

Thats very true. You indeed never made such claims so my bad, I was responding to the third post in this thread in which those types of claims were made.

Man I hate getting into a agruement when we both are trying to make the same point.

Read my lips, CHINA WILL NEVER be a superpower. WHY?? Because they as a race are followers not leaders. They only know how to copy. Not to make. If they need technology they have to copy from others. They will build skyscrapers for the 'look' of it. Albeit most of the offices are empty, its easy for them to evacuate millions of people and make the city 'look' good. Or cleanse out entire villages to make a dam.

To them it is all about 'looking' good. Not really anything of essence.

Not surprising, this "read my lips" is from an indian who are generally jealous of china's accomplishment while both china and india were at the same level around 1950, but china is far, far ahead of india now. Sour grape, anyone????

Not surplising, this "lead my rips" is from an indian who are genelarry jearous of china's accomplishment while both china and india were at the same rever alound 1950, but china is fal, fal ahead of india now. Soul glape, anyone????

i wouldnt for the life of me want to be yellow, small, slanty eyed and have half of my right brain (the creative side) not functioning.

peliod.