God does exist.

Faith is something very hard to attain, firstly, in order to have faith you need an astral body- with your astral body you can penetrate the fourth dimension. When Jesus walked on water, he penetrated the fourth dimension. All that was really a display of faith. When Jesus asked Peter to do the same thing, he couldn't- and Jesus said "Oh you are of little faith". Legitimate Christians are those who have genuine faith. The Christians of today who claim to have faith or even be Christians are not Christians at all. Legitimate Christians are those who can perform extraordinary feats- a perfect example of people with true faith are the howling dervishes who penetrate themselves with knives, walk on fire without getting scorched etc. So really, that's what faith is, people mistake faith for belief. It's not the same thing.

Originally posted by BlackSunApocalypse
Faith is something very hard to attain, firstly, in order to have faith you need an astral body- with your astral body you can penetrate the fourth dimension. When Jesus walked on water, he penetrated the fourth dimension. All that was really a display of faith. When Jesus asked Peter to do the same thing, he couldn't- and Jesus said "Oh you are of little faith". Legitimate Christians are those who have genuine faith. The Christians of today who claim to have faith or even be Christians are not Christians at all. Legitimate Christians are those who can perform extraordinary feats- a perfect example of people with true faith are the howling dervishes who penetrate themselves with knives, walk on fire without getting scorched etc. So really, that's what faith is, people mistake faith for belief. It's not the same thing.

edit on 9-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)

Yes, for the most part, I agree with what you define here, as faith.

Perhaps you misunderstood the context of my reply, as to faith. And if you did, it would be because of my lack of ability to express my particular "diaspora," if you will, my disenfranchisement vis a vis society, and humankind, in general, which has informed my fath or lack thereof......

I understand faith quite clearly as you describe it above, and certainly, possess if not my own astral projection, at least have knowledge of myself in that realm, and others, as well. But it still doesn't answer for me the suffering attendant to this realm, and the absence, thereof, of a creator whom, I believe, would and should be interceding for us at the moment of our most requisite pain and suffering: i.e., the North Korean people in camps, or all the other example I already gave of human suffering that I cannot quite bring myself to repeat, for it is haunting. And I can't drink enough to get that suffering out of my mind, nor make it easier to live with. No astral body or projection cures of fixes this thing for me.......

Perhaps, you could explain to me and thusly help me be at peace with this? Truly. For it is a burden, ever single day, for anyone thinking, aware and breathing, is it not. And where IS God, in all that, may I ask?

Put that way, faith is not a matter of belief at all, and I challenge you with that, for as I have described it here, it's a matter of survival and why anyone would even want to, not some belief or abstract concept of "faith," but the willingness and necessity of faith to survive through pain.......

Hope I have made it more clear, my take on this, even though I do agree with what you've said, but do not entirely think you conceive of what I am saying.
Tetra

I've read a lot of the replies here. And looking at what you said. I can understand why you do not believe in a creator. Or why it's hard to have faith in a creator in the face of so much human suffering. If we look at the effects of such evils taking place in the world. We come to the conclusion that such effects are created through causes. There must be a cause. And the cause is unquestionably human ignorance and stupidity. People don't know how to love. They have many vices. Pride. Anger. Greed. Etc. And this is grave. In truth. We have created our suffering. We are the creators of our own circumstances. Yes. The suffering of others does cause us grief. But such grief is something we have to endure. And the only thing we can do as individuals is to be the example of change we wish to see in the world. We can do nothing more than that. I think the belief in a creator isn't imperative. What's important is to love and live in peace with those around us. Perhaps they will see the light of life through our ways of living. Yes. We can speak out against the evils in the world. But we should never forget to be the example. That's all we can do and be.

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse


Hey Blacksunapocalypse:

I appreciate this dialogue with you, but here,with respect to you and your beliefs, I do not agree:

And the cause is unquestionably human ignorance and stupidity. People don't know how to love. They have many vices. Pride. Anger. Greed. Etc. And this is grave. In truth. We have created our suffering. We are the creators of our own circumstances. Yes.

This is my take: I don't know where we are, but I do not believe it as simple as the planet Earth in the Milky Way Galaxy. Anyone who knows my post history on this site, knows I don't buy that. A testing environment, a separated "biodome" sphere, even hell, biblically attendant to that belief system, perhaps............I don't really know. But what I do know for sure (within my own belief structure informed by a long life experience, personal and observant, as well) is, there is an agenda afoot for a very long time, to describe humanity, as a species, as all of what you describe. Even the Bible describes the human heart as capable of only sin and error, of the most evil motivations.....I never, ever bought that, even as a child, and even as one who revered the Bible and who still holds it in some esteem, though I cannot right now describe exactly what, not just history, but not the word of God, either. This is another matter, however, than what I wish to say about what you've branded humanity with.

This is paramount to me. For I think it obvious, now, that man has taken "control" over others, in the pursuit of being "god" or "godlike," and choosing to make of himself a creator, in favor of our own inventions, via transhumanism, or other like agendas.......and in that pursuit, we have chosen to bequeathe to ourselves as a species some of the worst possible controlled and projected and manipulated behavior, and backed it up with religious texts, changed them to reflect that pursuit and agenda.......even made some of them up.

That's squarely my own opinion. I have arrived at it through reading that text cover to cover, over many years, and studying, "religiously," forgive that "pun," the changes since the Council of Nicea, ancient history on its own. There is no doubt in my mind that we are extremely controlled and manipulated in various ways, here, wherever that is......for sacrificing for another creative concept of life, that those in control who have fomented this, think is "better," or just their human wish to be in control but taking that to a pathological and evil extreme, for I simply do not believe nor accept that mankind, as a species, is inherently evil, and never have and never will.

I know on my own and have experienced and observed on my own, too much of the control that I speak of, in various ways and forms. I could detail this for you, but this is not the thread for it. On top of this, adding insult to injury, was to have everyone believe that God, him/herself define us as a species as incapable of even knowing right from wrong in our hearts without His/Her word, even though we are supposedly his/her creation.....

Think for yourself, here. Would that which created us, tell us we were that clueless or unworthy, and still love us unconditionally? Sorry, not buying so much of the status quo, long ago accepted and perpetuated over generations to mankind's misfortune and misery, designed for that, pre conceived, planned out destruction of us as a species, and the more time goes on, and events unfold, it becomes, surely, obvious.....yet, i see no one put that altogether, as obvious to me as it is....

Mankind and the human species is inherently innocent, when born as an infant, and continues to be so, until other humans start the inculcation process disregarding and disrespecting themselves and teaching their children the same, sometimes, oft times, even, without even realizing it......

Pride being a "sin" reinforces this, among other things. It does not take a genius to see this. But I am constantly amazed at how few do see through this veil to the truth of what we really and truly are, and were meant and born to be, but instead accept our disinheritance of what God created us to be, if you will, and believe in a text that only reinforces this agenda.

It constantly amazes me, frankly. But it is a closed circle of condemnation. And if you don't believe in it, you are damned. How closed a circle can it get from there?

As to this:

I think the belief in a creator isn't imperative. What's important is to love and live in peace with those around us. Perhaps they will see the light of life through our ways of living. Yes. We can speak out against the evils in the world. But we should never forget to be the example. That's all we can do and be.

con't

I believe in a creator. I just think we have hijacked ourselves, manipulated ourselves out of perspective in order to assume that role, ourselves, for our anger at a creator who is not apparent and answering to our cries and wishes everyday.....or out of pure arrogance, and wishing to be on the same level, when it is not our purview nor within our reach...so we will sacrifice even our own humanity, by destroying and villifying each other and what it is we are, just to seek that status, and rule above others, no matter what the consequence. At the same time, while doing so, using that as a justification, in and of itself, proof, that we should be controlled, as we are evil enough to imagine and do this..while what is controlling are simply more of the same ilk and species.....trying to raise themselves to another level they do not deserve by their very actions and willingness to sacrifice their brethren to prove themselves more worthy.

I've gone on long enough.
Yes, all we can do is be our own best example. You are correct.

But some of us are so disgusted and so victimized and in pain and suffering, it is all we can do to get through the day, as it is. And I ask those of you living "cleaner" lives to have sympathy for that, and their brethren who make unwise choices, who act out of fear or pain, who self medicate or torture themselves, for they know no other way.
Let us not be so quick to judge......for this is how we got here, in such pain, IMHO.

Tetra

Jesus displayed an example on earth. That example was love. Turn the other cheek when being slapped. Repay evil with good. Etc. What the bible taught (in the new testament) is basically to forsake vengeance and to love. We have leaders who manipulate us. Leaders who try to create wars among people. To overcome these corrupt leaders. Individuals have to work together. The corrupt state the world is in today is really an extension of every individual. All one can do is to change individually. That's where it all starts. It's pointless complaining about the corruption of others if we are corrupt. When the bible asked you to believe. It basically asks you to believe in love or perish. The message of Jesus is Love. That is what the entire message portrays. Jesus was as innocent and harmless as a little child. He didn't lift his hands to those who persecuted him. That is how we should behave as well. When we suffer for doing good our reward is great. Suffering for doing bad is almost never beneficial. But suffering for doing good is always beneficial. We should suffer to see change in the world. We should endure pain. If you don't believe in love (god/jesus). You will undoubtedly perish. Believing is something practical. Its one thing to say you believe in love without showing acts of love and another to say you believe while displaying acts that emphasize your love. If you don't believe (with practical action). If you do not love. You will unquestionably perish in hate and rebellion.

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse

Jesus displayed an example on earth. That example was love. Turn the other cheek when being slapped.

Did you know that's a Taoist principle? The theory goes that because they invest their beliefs in the Yin and Yang, should they slap one cheek, you turn the other and they will not hit you again out of respect for balance.

Now why would Jesus be preaching Chinese philosophy?

If you don't believe in love (god/jesus). You will undoubtedly perish.

I have in my driveway a Jeep Liberty. It's basically a car. But just because it's a car, does not mean that Jeep Liberty defines what it is to be a car. It is an example of a car, but not the definition. In just such a way, the idealist icon we refer to as Jesus is an example of love, passivity, and consideration. But he is not the definition.

Do you see what I'm saying?

If you do not love. You will unquestionably perish in hate and rebellion.

I believe hate serves a purpose.

Originally posted by BlackSunApocalypse
our bodies were designed very intelligently within our mothers wombs, don't you agree?

How are they intelligently designed?

The second we are born we need to breathe, eat..we are getting sick..we can get hurt...at some point we die.
Why are we given needs and requirements we have to satisfy all the time?

Why are we not just crystal or rock beings which don't require a metabolism to take in oxygen and nutrients to exist. Some entity in a crystal which could exist for 100.000 of years and not bother with diseases, taking in food etc.

What is your criterion for "intelligent"? Why do you think we are created "intelligently"?

Why do we even NEED a mother/father? Why don't we just materialize out of nothing...and then exist in some way, way more advanced way than being born as a helpless baby depending on a mother?

You see that alone your criterion of what is "intelligently designed" is questionable...so no, I do not "agree" since I could come-up with a zillion amazing super-powers and abilities which would far surpass the ones we actually have.

Originally posted by BlackSunApocalypse
Jesus displayed an example on earth. That example was love. Turn the other cheek when being slapped. Repay evil with good. Etc. What the bible taught (in the new testament) is basically to forsake vengeance and to love. We have leaders who manipulate us. Leaders who try to create wars among people. To overcome these corrupt leaders. Individuals have to work together. The corrupt state the world is in today is really an extension of every individual. All one can do is to change individually. That's where it all starts. It's pointless complaining about the corruption of others if we are corrupt. When the bible asked you to believe. It basically asks you to believe in love or perish. The message of Jesus is Love. That is what the entire message portrays. Jesus was as innocent and harmless as a little child. He didn't lift his hands to those who persecuted him. That is how we should behave as well. When we suffer for doing good our reward is great. Suffering for doing bad is almost never beneficial. But suffering for doing good is always beneficial. We should suffer to see change in the world. We should endure pain. If you don't believe in love (god/jesus). You will undoubtedly perish. Believing is something practical. Its one thing to say you believe in love without showing acts of love and another to say you believe while displaying acts that emphasize your love. If you don't believe (with practical action). If you do not love. You will unquestionably perish in hate and rebellion.

edit on 9-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)

I am sorry once again if I have communicated so poorly, as I agree with you very much in this. I absolutely try to live with love in my heart, try to act out of love and never vengeance, and try to turn the other cheek. This is all I can do in a world I feel pretty much helpless in, but I must say there are times when I feel subjugated by that. And on those days, I'm kinda tired of being beaten up with it.....But despite this, and my lack of faith on some days, I do believe this is the way.
Tetra

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse


What a bunch of hooey!

Jesus displayed an example on earth.

Really? Do you have children? Would you teach your children this?

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Jesus didn't have a job, he didn't have a home or place to lay his head.

And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Jesus hung out with prostitutes, criminals and other outcasts. Would you instruct your children to hang out with criminals?

1 Cor 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

That example was love. Turn the other cheek when being slapped. Repay evil with good.

So you would never teach your children to defend themselves, their family, friends or their country when under attack?

What the bible taught (in the new testament) is basically to forsake vengeance and to love. We have leaders who manipulate us. Leaders who try to create wars among people. To overcome these corrupt leaders. Individuals have to work together. The corrupt state the world is in today is really an extension of every individual. All one can do is to change individually.

So which is it? Do you teach your children to roll up their sleeves to make a better society, or do you teach them to abandon the ways of the world, and seek their own personal change and peace individually from within?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

That's where it all starts. It's pointless complaining about the corruption of others if we are corrupt. When the bible asked you to believe. It basically asks you to believe in love or perish. The message of Jesus is Love.

I thought that Christians are asked to believe in the death of a god, murdered by corrupt people, who rose after 3 days to defeat death and offered eternal life and salvation through the blood that he shed, (out of love, of course)

Who doesn't believe in love? Psychopaths and sociopaths, perhaps, but science indicates that these people are born that way.

That is what the entire message portrays. Jesus was as innocent and harmless as a little child. He didn't lift his hands to those who persecuted him. That is how we should behave as well. When we suffer for doing good our reward is great. Suffering for doing bad is almost never beneficial. But suffering for doing good is always beneficial. We should suffer to see change in the world. We should endure pain.

Does suffering really equal love? If one is suffering because they did something good, (no good deed goes unpunished, you know.) are they doing it for a great reward in the afterlife, or just purely out of love? It seems that Christians are told, suffer now, reap the rewards later. Isn't that a selfish motivation, in the long run? Do Christians really need to be bribed to good good deeds?

If you don't believe in love (god/jesus). You will undoubtedly perish. Believing is something practical. Its one thing to say you believe in love without showing acts of love and another to say you believe while displaying acts that emphasize your love. If you don't believe (with practical action). If you do not love. You will unquestionably perish in hate and rebellion.

Not believing a bunch of contradictory, convoluted gobbly gook equals rebellion? Can one force oneself to believe something that is contrary to their core alignment?

Oh, I know, first you have to have faith, then the Holy Spirit will take over and make you believe. Jump first, give up your free will, and then see what happens?

And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

Would you teach your children that this world is going to destroyed, within their lifetime, by Jesus? If so, would you encourage them to seek a career, go to college, save for retirement? Would you teach them family planning and fiscal responsibility?

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What a lovely view of life for your children!

It's a theory, well enough, but theories never equal reality. People are ruthless, if you turned the other cheek, they'd gladly slap it.
Hate does serve it's purpose, I agree, the hate of evil is a positive type of hate.

Nobody can materialize out of nothing, every creation requires a positive and negative principle.

Jesus was a man of peace, it's as simple as that. He never rebelled against those who persecuted him. I know it's a natural instinct for humans to defend when they find themselves or their family in danger, but in this day and age, it becomes necessary to forsake our family in spirit to follow christ through peace. Christ is building up an army of peaceable people, that's why Christ is hated so deeply in the world. His path is the narrow and difficult path, extremely hard to follow because ultimate love is love for all. If you see someone hurting a loved one, you can intervene, but without hurting anyone in the process. We should be as harmless as little children, only this is true love and gentleness- like Jesus.

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse

Jesus was a man of peace, it's as simple as that. He never rebelled against those who persecuted him.

Wrong! Jesus was very rebellious! What was that, if not rebellion when he called the Pharisee's "Sons of Satan"? How about the upturning of the money changer temples? How about the redefining of the 10 Commandments into only 2 commandments?

I know it's a natural instinct for humans to defend when they find themselves or their family in danger, but in this day and age, it becomes necessary to forsake our family in spirit to follow christ through peace.

That's not natural. Christians are asked to become what is unnatural.

Christ is building up an army of peaceable people, that's why Christ is hated so deeply in the world. His path is the narrow and difficult path, extremely hard to follow because ultimate love is love for all. If you see someone hurting a loved one, you can intervene, but without hurting anyone in the process.

This is another bunch of non-biblical hooey. "A peaceable army"? Like the ones that brought us the Inquisition and the Crusades?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

We should be as harmless as little children, only this is true love and gentleness- like Jesus.

Little children aren't harmless, they're easily manipulated and taken advantage of, they're weak, immature and ignorant.

Indeed, he was rebellious, but don't forget the symbolism behind such rebellion. Jesus knew humans had evil. So he used the "rebellion" against temptations (which he had to endure) as an example of how we should be. Such rebellion is manifested in peace. To forsake vengeance is a type of rebellion against the urge to retaliate when persecuted. The removal of "merchants from the temple" was symbolic for our need to remove the merchants from our temple (the body). We should remove such merchants with the whip of will power. The merchants are symbolic for those who choose money and pleasure over Christ. It is necessary to be as harmless as children, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be wise enough to prevent manipulation.

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse

The removal of "merchants from the temple" was symbolic for our need to remove the merchants from our temple (the body).

But isn't the whole "consign your destiny to the will of God for eternal life and salvation" a sort of merchandising? You basically sell your soul to be forgiven by the person who cursed you with that unforgivable nature to begin with. And on that note, here's a joke for you -

Jesus: Knock knock!

Me: Who's there?

Jesus: It's me, Jesus Christ! Let me in!

Me: Why?

Jesus: So I can save you!

Me: From what?

Jesus: What I'll do to you if you don't let me in!

I am not forcing or asking nobody to follow Christ, all I can do is show my agreement to a message (of love) that I think can mold a better life for all. What I want is peace for everyone, and the message Jesus lived- through peace- seems to resonate with my deepest desire: peace on earth. If I choose to rebel, to repay evil with evil, how does it make me any better than the person who inflicts evil upon me? We should always repay evil with good, and stick to it. The world needs peace, in anguish of heart I say: we need to be peaceful, are you with me on this? That's all I long for. I don't expect anyone to believe in Christ, for like I said, belief is something practical, whoever is peaceful and loving is a Christ spirit. All religions in their true sense basically have the same basis. The scriptures have been thoroughly distorted, but the essence remains the same, that essence is love and love calls, there is a Spirit calling us to love. That is all.

reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse


Don't think kids can be mean and violent? Pffft. Kids are the worst! If you think that children are harmless, then you've never read "Lord of the Flies", or, you were never bullied in school.

2 Kings 2:23-25
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

Bullying in Young Children:Recognizing, Stopping, & Preventing it

How common is bullying?
Among 6- to 9- year olds:
22% physically bullied in past year
28% physically bullied ever
30% teased in past year

When I mean little children, I mean new born babes- meaning, we should be completely harmless, yes, children aren't harmless because their minds become corrupted, but before such external stimuli had corrupted them, they were harmless. Look at your new born babe for example, hold him/her in your arms and tell me they aren't harmless.

BlackSunApocalypse
Nobody can materialize out of nothing, every creation requires a positive and negative principle.

What is the positive and negative principle that created god?