Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

I kind of find it funny that people complain about being a slave to the dollar and not getting enough vacation...and then they will turn around and trash Unions and Government jobs...both of which give their members/employees very generous vacation packages.

I wonder if they ever stop and think about what they are angry about.

Originally posted by AlienScience
I kind of find it funny that people complain about being a slave to the dollar and not getting enough vacation...and then they will turn around and trash Unions and Government jobs...both of which give their members/employees very generous vacation packages.

I wonder if they ever stop and think about what they are angry about.

Not gonna even talk to unions and their history of using violence against people who dissent....


....but government jobs are leech jobs. Nothing honorable about working for agencies that pay you by stealing from the populace.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by AlienScience
I kind of find it funny that people complain about being a slave to the dollar and not getting enough vacation...and then they will turn around and trash Unions and Government jobs...both of which give their members/employees very generous vacation packages.

I wonder if they ever stop and think about what they are angry about.

Not gonna even talk to unions and their history of using violence against people who dissent....


....but government jobs are leech jobs. Nothing honorable about working for agencies that pay you by stealing from the populace.

So soldiers are leeches?

reply to post by Phage


Maybe I am unclear. Not the first time.

If I labor directly to provide my needs, let's say food, it will not take 40 hours per week by a long shot. Sure planting/picking/preserving will have some long days but not all the time. If I labor directly to put a roof over my head, building it will be tough but then I am done.

Most modern Americans do not labor this way. There are a lot of steps between what they do and what they get in return. They go to work everyday (hopefully) and spend the entire day producing nothing directly for themselves. They get currency in exchange for their labor. That currency then needs to be exchanged for what they need, be it food or a roof over their head. That indirectness subjects them to a loss.

If that time laboring was spent directly producing food to eat or building the roof over their head, no way would they spend 8-10 hours a day, 51 weeks a year making it happen. Ergo, they would have more time for other things.

The argument that people want modern medical care and cable TV has little to do with this. We are only talking about time not technology comparisons.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.marksdailyapple.com...

www.economist.com...

Originally posted by AlienScience

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by AlienScience
I kind of find it funny that people complain about being a slave to the dollar and not getting enough vacation...and then they will turn around and trash Unions and Government jobs...both of which give their members/employees very generous vacation packages.

I wonder if they ever stop and think about what they are angry about.

Not gonna even talk to unions and their history of using violence against people who dissent....


....but government jobs are leech jobs. Nothing honorable about working for agencies that pay you by stealing from the populace.

So soldiers are leeches?

When my nation is invaded, a soldier is a valid necessity.

But when my nation sends soldiers abroad to protect corporations....."leech" is an adequate descriptive.

I don't begrudge the majority for this. They are doing what they think is right, in good conscience.

Yes, we are talking about TIME.

All God gives you is TIME, and you do not know how much you're going to get. You trade your time for everything else, one way or another.

Serfs were, in general, farmers. You may not realize that farmers get a lot of time off. The whole winter, in fact. Planting and harvest times are busy, the summer is pretty much party time, and the winter being suck it up time, keep the fire stoked, eat all the food you have saved up, and repair stuff for next year.

Serfs didn't have it as bad as slaves. Serfs would have to give up part of their harvest, much like a sharecropper. Usually 10-25 percent. SLAVES would have to give up most of whatever they produce. They would usually be allowed to keep some for themselves, sometimes almost half. Serfs would have to give up 10-25 percent of the TIME they spent working, which was already only half the year. So really they were giving up 5-12.5 percent of their TIME. They did not own the land, but also couldn't be thrown off. If the lord were to sell the land, the serfs went along with it. Slaves could be sold.

Let's compare this to you paying taxes in terms of TIME. Taxes are the cut you have to give the lord of the manor. You could also call it the vig or the protection or hush money. There are lots of names for it.

Americans total tax bill is definitely over 50 percent when you add all the taxes up, since you are taxed again every time you spend any of the money you have already been taxed on, unless you are very clever. You do not own your land, you are listed as a TENANT on the deed. You spend over half your TIME earning the "money" that you then turn over to pay your taxes. Try not paying taxes, and see what happens to the house, cars, etc. you think you OWN. They will be taken away from you by the lord.

This pretty much fits the definition of a SLAVE more than a SERF. But flashing electronic gizmos make it seem so nice. And electricity gives you more working hours in the day all year round so you can spend more TIME working. To pay the lord his cut.

reply to post by opethPA


Because your life is that way everyone can have such a life? Simplistic thinking, no?

Originally posted by Nosce
reply to post by opethPA

 

Because your life is that way everyone can have such a life? Simplistic thinking, no?

Nothing simplistic about it and no where did I imply it is that way for everyone.
Sorry i don't see being successful, being happy and working hard to live life the way I want as being a bad thing.

Originally posted by greavsie1971
I always find it a little crazy knowing americans get so little annual leave. Are there any other developed countries that are similar?

Hmmm, china maybe.

www.ibtimes.com...

according to this article, chinese get more vacation, but not much more.

Oh, look, German and Austria take No.1 and No.3 spot as the countries with the most vacation. Not creating an enviroment where the population is either too busy to spend, too poor to spend, or too burned out to innovate apprently is good buisness.

reply to post by Phage


You are

If the medieval way of life is all that one knows then that's it. I can't get any better than that.

People confuse their wants and their needs.



Greed is bad

Originally posted by ABNARTY
reply to post by Phage

 

Maybe I am unclear. Not the first time.

If I labor directly to provide my needs, let's say food, it will not take 40 hours per week by a long shot. Sure planting/picking/preserving will have some long days but not all the time. If I labor directly to put a roof over my head, building it will be tough but then I am done.

I grew up in a farming family, as I've noted in several other posts, and spent a great amount of my 'free' time as a teen and young adult helping my grandfather on his farm. It wasn't a 'corporate' farm, it was exactly what you'd need to be self-sufficient...it was a mixed-use spread with ~100 head of cattle, several acres of 'truck farm' crops (produce and fruit) and about 400 acres of wheat, soybeans, or corn. You're very correct...if you had to directly provide for your needs, it won't take 40 hours per week. That won't even get you started. During planting season, you'll be preparing the soil, then planting your seed. Once it's planted, you don't just sit on the porch and watch it grow...you have to weed the crops, keep them watered, and fertilize them. Once they're mature, you get to harvest, clean, preserve, and store them. That could easily keep a small family occupied for 40 hours a week by itself. Over and above that, though, you've got to take time to care for your livestock and / or draft animals, service your tools and machinery, and take care of the pastureland for your animals. Tired yet? Too bad, because you still haven't ground any flour, baked any bread, made any butter to put on it, or actually cooked a meal. You also haven't cleaned and mended your clothes, eaten, or bathed.

I can speak from experience...keeping a farm operational is a long way from a 40 hour week...it's closer to 60-80 hours, with peak times that can be worse.

Now that your farm is tended to, we can move on to other things, like building your own house (since you mentioned working directly to keep a roof overhead). Do you have the skills (or the time, see above) to dig out, prep, and lay or pour a foundation? Are you a good enough carpenter to square up a wall, ceiling, and floors? Do you know how to waterproof your roof, install your plumbing, electrical system, and HVAC? If you do, good on you. Now, do you have the time (while juggling the needs of the farm for your food) to do maintenance and upkeep on your dwelling? Even if you keep this to the 'primitive peasant' level and leave out indoor plumbing and electricity, keeping a house in good repair is a major time-killer...and if you skip the plumbing, don't forget that you'll have to dig, use, and maintain an outhouse and a well (neither one as simple a thing as you might think).

In the copious free time granted you by your self-sufficient lifestyle, you can weave some cloth and sew a shirt and trousers, tan some leather to make boots, gloves, and a hat (trust me, you *will* need them).

Been there, done that...and trust me, the 'good old days' weren't that good.

Most modern Americans do not labor this way. There are a lot of steps between what they do and what they get in return. They go to work everyday (hopefully) and spend the entire day producing nothing directly for themselves. They get currency in exchange for their labor. That currency then needs to be exchanged for what they need, be it food or a roof over their head. That indirectness subjects them to a loss.

Really? What do I lose by letting farmers farm, while I run computers for a living. I give up the strain of farming life, and gain leisure time to do things like raise my macaw, and post on ATS. Am I missing something?

If that time laboring was spent directly producing food to eat or building the roof over their head, no way would they spend 8-10 hours a day, 51 weeks a year making it happen. Ergo, they would have more time for other things.

The argument that people want modern medical care and cable TV has little to do with this. We are only talking about time not technology comparisons.

As noted, you're right, 8-10 hours / day for 50 weeks a year wouldn't come *close*. You'll notice that in my list of things you'd need to do, I didn't mention medical care, dental care, cable TV, or an education. I was looking at JUST the basics of food, clothing, and shelter. If you think I'm wrong in any way, you could test my theory by hiring on as a farmhand for a season or two, or by living in a truly self-sufficient way...but that would be rather hard to document on the Web, since building a PC or Mac from basic materials (sand, oil, copper ore etc) is probably a bigger project than any of us have time for.

originally posted by: AlienScience
I kind of find it funny that people complain about being a slave to the dollar and not getting enough vacation...and then they will turn around and trash Unions and Government jobs...both of which give their members/employees very generous vacation packages.

I wonder if they ever stop and think about what they are angry about.

Actually, it is because they *do* stop and think about it that they complain about them.

It is the fundamental nature of Unions and NON Constitutional (95+% of government jobs today) 'Government Jobs' - meaning, the underlying philosophical and legal framework that makes their existence possible - that has created the problem.

Think about it - as the problem - government intrusion into our lives - has gotten worse, so has our ability to earn a living and enjoy the fruits of our labor.

The fundamental problem, really, is ignorance with respect to capitalism, and ignorance with respect to our monetary system.

People look around, and claim that the problems we face now prove that capitalism doesn't work, but their conclusion is based on a false premise.

What they fail to grasp is that what we have now is not capitalism. It is Corporatism, aka FASCISM. A milder form for sure than Russia under Stalin or Germany under Hitler - but give it time.

Under true free market capitalism, corporations would not have the same Rights as people (be considered a 'person' under Constitutional Law), and the people running them would be fully responsible, and more importantly, held accountable, and most importantly, financially liable, for criminal actions, whether it was dumping toxic chemical waste into rivers, or committing gross financial fraud (banking/housing collapse).

'Lobbying' would be considered what it is - bribery, a criminal act.

Government regulators going to work for the big corporations they regulate would be considered what it in fact is - a criminal conflict of interest.

One can only dream of a truly free world, where people were free to do whatever they wanted as long as they did no harm to others, but if/when they did, were fully accountable for said actions, regardless of their position or how much money they had.

I seriously doubt Benrl's pointing out that we Americans work to much
was to compare the healthcare and education systems of Feudal Europe
vs the US. It was just days off dummies.
And why would anyone fight for less days off ? Unless you own BestBuy
don't complain about the possibility of more vacation

a reply to: benrl

What about holidays and weekends? Do they not count as days off?

originally posted by: davethebear


Yeah, I have never understand why Americans get so little annual leave. There is no way that I would take on a job unless there was at least 5 weeks annual leave, plus the bank holidays on top.....Even that's not enough

Surely in this day and age the American system could come up with better holiday time. Most Americans I have met when travelling say that they never really get more than two weeks a year. Bloody hell, there would be a riot over here in the UK, if that is all that was on offer..........

This has probably never entered your mind, but you're interacting with the people that actually get vacation time and make enough to afford to travel. For many Americans, especially those in the bottom 25% or so there is no such thing as vacation time. Personally I'm 30 years old and have never worked a job where vacation time or even unpaid time off has been part of compensation... and I usually work holidays too (no one closes for holidays in the US anymore). That's simply the way it is here.

You know, they say that hunter gatherers only worked an estimated 20 hours a week, so we are getting screwed, but 40 hours a week is tolerable. People that have to work 50, 60 hours or more a week are really having their lives ruined unless they're single and have no other responsibilities.

a reply to: CB328

i work 50-60 hours a week, and am a very successful husband and father (married for 20 years, oldest is 24 years old and in college). And son, since we take care of my aging mother too.

It can be done. You just have to be efficient with your time while working, and leisurely with your time with the family.

I don't have time for friends. So that keeps things narrowed down a bit. And watching TV is a planned "quality time" thing for the wife and I to do in the mornings. Otherwise, I don't watch TV (unless its football)