To the Atheist: A reason Christians get heated when defending their belief.

Matthew 13:14-15 KJV
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Readers,

Believerpriest's heart is waxed gross, his ears are dull of hearing, and his eyes are closed and he cannot see that "after" means "after" and not "during".

Jesus was crucified "after" the 69th week, which would be in midst of the 70th week. Jesus was the one and only Christ. Believe it and don't follow Believerpriest in his condition.

truejew
Matthew 13:14-15 KJV
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Readers,

Believerpriest's heart is waxed gross, his ears are dull of hearing, and his eyes are closed and he cannot see that "after" means "after" and not "during".

Jesus was crucified "after" the 69th week, which would be in midst of the 70th week. Jesus was the one and only Christ. Believe it and don't follow Believerpriest in his condition.

It really is sad how you project your soul atrophy on to me. This passage describes you. You are the one that reads the plain and simple truth and still doesnt understand. You are the one calling me antichtist while hypocritically ignoring the scriptural evidence. You make Christ out to be a fraud.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


The last time I checked. You are the one claiming "after" means "during".

Replacing Christ with Antichrist does make you an antichrist.

reply to post by truejew



You are the one perverting scripture. You are basically leading people to Satan. He is the Great deceiver that will come in the seven year tribulation. He will claim to be God just as you are claiming he is God....if you truly believe in God friend search your soul speak with the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived before the time is even here.

borntowatch

ServantOfTheLamb

borntowatch

ServantOfTheLamb

borntowatch


I never got that feeling, though I am Christian.
What is that feeling like, why did I miss out, am I on my own.
Feelings tell lies more often than not.
I dont think Christianity rely s on feelings

Before I answer what does the word Christian mean to you personally?

What does it mean or what is it

What does it mean, one who believes in Jesus
What is it, well it is a person who accepts that Jesus is God, died and forgave their sins, has faith in Gods works on the cross for them. Irrespective of how they live their lives.

You are leaving out a crucial part. You must accept the Holy Spirit into your heart. The feeling I speak of is the Holy Spirit becoming part of me. I am not saying you haven't done this, but I have never met a Christian who doesn't know what I mean when I speak about this feeling. I am still over taken by the Spirit on occasion. The same unique feeling occurs every time. Like I said it might not be universal, but you are the first to tell me they don't know the feeling I speak of.

The connection with the Holy Spirit is what gives us the once saved always saved philosophy.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

edit on 12-9-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

Mormons get a FEELING of a burning of the bosom, makes your feeling a little wishy washy.
I am not a Calvanist, not even consider once saved always saved, its ridiculous, go study that doctrine, or just ask

Did the thief/murderer on the cross next to Christ receive the Holy Spirit, and evidence to back it up would be nice, think and consider
Is the Holy Spirit a gift?
Lets go deeper, far deeper if you have the courage

First off I would like to apologize. I shouldn't have said you have to accept the holy spirit, but rather that when you first believe the Gospel it is sealed within you. This is the feeling I refer too. The Holy Spirit isn't a requirement, but a gift(reference Ephesians 1:13-14). I apologize again for the misunderstanding.

Second I would say it is irrelevant. Jesus told him he would be going to paradise with him. If Jesus lied there none of us are going to heaven based on the doctrine. The thief would have had no reason to be endowed with the Holy Spirit he was at the end of his path, so no he probably never received it on earth.

ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by truejew

 

You are the one perverting scripture. You are basically leading people to Satan. He is the Great deceiver that will come in the seven year tribulation. He will claim to be God just as you are claiming he is God....if you truly believe in God friend search your soul speak with the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived before the time is even here.

You are the one saying that scripture lies when it says "after" the 69th week. You are the one claiming that the Antichrist, not Christ, is the one who brings an end to the animal sacrifices. You are the one claiming that Jesus Christ failed in fulfilling the prophecy of the Christ.

reply to post by truejew

You are in my prayers

ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by truejew

 

You are in my prayers

While you are in prayer. Repent and turn to Jesus as your Christ. The Antichrist will not save you from what is to come.

John Wesley and John Calvin agree with me that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Christ given in Daniel 9:24-27.

Here is John Wesley in his "Explanatory Notes"...

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. He shall confirm — Christ confirmed the new covenant, 1. By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. 2. By his preaching. 3. By signs and wonders. 4. By his holy life. 5. By his resurrection and ascension. 6. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease — All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined — That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.

Here are two quotes from John Calvin from vol. 25 of his commentary on Daniel 9:27...

In the last Lecture we explained how Christ confirmed the covenant with many during the last week;

The Prophet now subjoins, He will make to cease the sacrifice and offering for half a week. We ought to refer this to the time of the resurrection. For while Christ passed through the period of his life on earth, he did not put an end to the sacrifices; but after he had offered himself up as a victim, then all the rites of the law came to a close. By the words "sacrifice and offering" the Prophet implies all ceremonies, a part being put for the whole; as if he had said, after Christ had offered up one eternal sacrifice, all the customary ceremonies of the Law were abolished; for otherwise Christ's death would have been superfluous, had he not put an end to all the old shadows of the Law.

truejew
John Wesley and John Calvin agree with me that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Christ given in Daniel 9:24-27.

Here is John Wesley in his "Explanatory Notes"...

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. He shall confirm — Christ confirmed the new covenant, 1. By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. 2. By his preaching. 3. By signs and wonders. 4. By his holy life. 5. By his resurrection and ascension. 6. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease — All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined — That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.

The Prophet now subjoins, He will make to cease the sacrifice and offering for half a week. We ought to refer this to the time of the resurrection. For while Christ passed through the period of his life on earth, he did not put an end to the sacrifices; but after he had offered himself up as a victim, then all the rites of the law came to a close. By the words "sacrifice and offering" the Prophet implies all ceremonies, a part being put for the whole; as if he had said, after Christ had offered up one eternal sacrifice, all the customary ceremonies of the Law were abolished; for otherwise Christ's death would have been superfluous, had he not put an end to all the old shadows of the Law.

Okay, during the seven year tribulation Israel will have a new temple, and will resume an Old Covenant style of worship. Sacrifices will resume. Daniel 9:27 refers to the Antichrist coming and putting a stop to this, and declaring that he is God. This is the Abomination of Desolation. This is how those left during the tribulation are to know that the time is near.

ServantOfTheLamb

truejew
John Wesley and John Calvin agree with me that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Christ given in Daniel 9:24-27.

Here is John Wesley in his "Explanatory Notes"...

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. He shall confirm — Christ confirmed the new covenant, 1. By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. 2. By his preaching. 3. By signs and wonders. 4. By his holy life. 5. By his resurrection and ascension. 6. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease — All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined — That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.

The Prophet now subjoins, He will make to cease the sacrifice and offering for half a week. We ought to refer this to the time of the resurrection. For while Christ passed through the period of his life on earth, he did not put an end to the sacrifices; but after he had offered himself up as a victim, then all the rites of the law came to a close. By the words "sacrifice and offering" the Prophet implies all ceremonies, a part being put for the whole; as if he had said, after Christ had offered up one eternal sacrifice, all the customary ceremonies of the Law were abolished; for otherwise Christ's death would have been superfluous, had he not put an end to all the old shadows of the Law.

Okay, during the seven year tribulation Israel will have a new temple, and will resume an Old Covenant style of worship. Sacrifices will resume. Daniel 9:27 refers to the Antichrist coming and putting a stop to this, and declaring that he is God. This is the Abomination of Desolation. This is how those left during the tribulation are to know that the time is near.

edit on 15-9-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

Daniel prophesies that Christ ends the sacrifices with His sacrifice. Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with the Antichrist.

Your teaching that God still accepts animal sacrifices until the Antichrist ends them in a future 70th week is antichrist. It makes the crucifixion of Jesus have no meaning if people are still being saved by the law. It makes the Antichrist into the savior and Christ into a failure.

truejew

Your teaching that God still accepts animal sacrifices until the Antichrist ends them in a future 70th week is antichrist. It makes the crucifixion of Jesus have no meaning if people are still being saved by the law. It makes the Antichrist into the savior and Christ into a failure.


No. I am teaching that during the tribulation Israel will return to an Old Covenant style of worship. Where did I say anything about what God does and does not accept? People were never saved by the Law alone (Hebrews 10:1-4). You keep trying to twist my words because you don't want to accept that your perverting scripture.

reply to post by truejew


[Dan 9

26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”]

[Dan 12

10 “Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”]

Wesely and Clavin were wrong. Read and learn. The Messiah was cut off after week 69 (when it finished). The prince who is to come will come will destroy the city and establish a 7 year covenant (dan9:26&27). The Messiah is not the prince to come. They are both identified in the same sentence as two separate characters.

Dan 12:10-13 describe the same events as in Revelation. The covenant is 7 years long, but is violated at mid point. Revelation give the exact sequence of events at 1260+1260 days, where Dan 12 gives a 45 day escape window.

The abomination of desolation described in Four Gospels, Thessalonians, and Revelation, is the same event as described in Daniel 9 and Daniel 12.

Quote your scholars all you want, but understand that their words are not the Word of God, and His word clearly says that you are wrong.

Had you accepted Christ's work alone on the cross as a sufficient sacrifice (rather than arrogantly trying to add your works to it), you WOULD be saved, and WOULD have the Holy Spirit to see the truth, but that is clearly not the case.

Salvation is by faith ALONE. If you tried to add any thing to it, then you are not saved.

You are in desparate need of repentance (change your attitude) regarding the gift of salvation. It is a gift of God's grace, not a merit of faith+plus works. You can not recieve a gift through work. You must humble yourself and set your pride aside for salvation.

Before you rely, just take the time to think about it.

ServantOfTheLamb


No. I am teaching that during the tribulation Israel will return to an Old Covenant style of worship. Where did I say anything about what God does and does not accept? People were never saved by the Law alone (Hebrews 10:1-4). You keep trying to twist my words because you don't want to accept that your perverting scripture.

Your doctrine teaches that animal sacrifices were not ended by Christ when He was crucified. Your doctrine teaches that animal sacrifices are ended in a future 70th week by the Antichrist instead. You are the one perverting scripture and making the crucifixion of Christ worthless.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

The Messiah was cut off after week 69 (when it finished).

There is no in between the 69th and 70th weeks. Either Christ was crucified during the 69th week or during the 70th week. Both "after" the 69th week and "in the midst" of the 70th week show that it was during the 70th week.

BELIEVERpriest


The prince who is to come will come will destroy the city and establish a 7 year covenant (dan9:26&27).

The prince was Titus. Christ destroyed the city using Titus as prophesied. Titus, the prince, neither was prophesied to establish a covenant, nor did he establish one.

BELIEVERpriest

The Messiah is not the prince to come. They are both identified in the same sentence as two separate characters.

I never said that to be the case. The prince was Titus. What I said is that the focus was on Christ and never the prince.

BELIEVERpriest

Dan 12:10-13 describe the same events as in Revelation. The covenant is 7 years long, but is violated at mid point. Revelation give the exact sequence of events at 1260+1260 days, where Dan 12 gives a 45 day escape window.

In order to be called Christ, the Antichrist will attempt to deceive many that he fulfills the prophecy of Christ. Including setting up a counterfeit 70th week to deceive people like you.

BELIEVERpriest

Quote your scholars all you want, but understand that their words are not the Word of God, and His word clearly says that you are wrong.

I quoted your scholars, not mine.

BELIEVERpriest

Had you accepted Christ's work alone on the cross as a sufficient sacrifice (rather than arrogantly trying to add your works to it), you WOULD be saved, and WOULD have the Holy Spirit to see the truth, but that is clearly not the case.

Repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are not me adding my works to faith. They are commanded by Christ and His apostles. They are actions of faith alone.

BELIEVERpriest

You are in desparate need of repentance (change your attitude) regarding the gift of salvation.

In your view of "faith alone", I would not be in need of repentance because repentance would be a work.

reply to post by truejew


Im not a calvinist. Nor do I subscribe to Wesley.

Repentance is not work. To repent means to turn around, or in the theological sense, to change your mind. It doesnt mean to feel sorrow, remorse or regret. Those are all natural emotions, but never the basis of repentance or salvation.

Therefore, you must turn away from the mental attitude of salvation by work, and face the free give at the cross.

Christ died at the transition point from week 69 to week 70. The moment of His death was the cut off. After week 69 and before week 70.

So, will you answer me now, do you still consider yourself a sinner?

Do not fear the question.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

Repentance is not work.

Then baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit are also not works. Peter groups the three together. You cannot say repentance is necessary and baptism is not. All three are necessary as faith in action.

BELIEVERpriest

Therefore, you must turn away from the mental attitude of salvation by work, and face the free give at the cross.

I do not teach salvation by works. I teach true salvation by grace through faith the Acts 2:38 way.

BELIEVERpriest

Christ died at the transition point from week 69 to week 70. The moment of His death was the cut off. After week 69 and before week 70.

The scripture says "after" the 69th week, which would be in the midst of the 70th. It does not say during the 69th week.

reply to post by truejew


Ok. So lets assume you are right about the 70th week, trinity, etc.

Does it mean you are still a sinner or not? What's so hard about answering the question?

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

Ok. So lets assume you are right about the 70th week, trinity, etc.

Does it mean you are still a sinner or not? What's so hard about answering the question?

I do not see how the question relates to the discussion. I think that it may be asked in order to be prideful.

reply to post by truejew


Water baptism is work, and is not a requisite for salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is required for eternal life, and that is accomplished by God, not you or any other man. At the point of salvation, one is baptized in the Holy Spirit and reciece the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I never said it involved work.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus never had the opportunity to be baptized by water, and He was save by simply believing in Jesus.

Answer the question and I will show you how it relates to our discussion.

I personally believe that all humans saved or not still produce sin in this lifetime. Its definately not something to be proud of.

I find it strange that you would withhold the answer. Suppose I were an atheist seeking eternal life. Would you deprive me of the answer then???

The question is: After the moment of salvation, does one still commit sin from time to time?