Lycurgus Cup, ancient nanotechnology from the Romans.

reply to post by James1982


True, but they (past cultures) understood the methods to get the desired effect and didn't knock it.

Do you think ancient blacksmiths knew the science behind making good steel? No of course they didn't, they did however know the method of making a more superior steel such as the folding technique.

To be honest I don't think any culture knew the reason of why these techniques work, but they understood following certain methods will give certain desired results. Trial and error was the key with a touch of superstition.

Oh and the documentary where I have seen this cup before was Treasures of Ancient Rome. Was a good watch.

that's impressive. what was the purpose of these two cups? where the researchers able to know?

and what is the purpose behind their two different colors? these were not paints you know.

The art of alchemy not only was a precursor to modern chemistry, but probably studied just as rigorously and using methods as close to modern scientific ones. The people involved weren't stupid, even if misinformed in some regards. You've got to be quite knowledgable and clever to come up with stuff like aqua regia, various metallurgy (which hasn't been readily reproduced in modern times), and materials like this glass.

So sometimes it's still possible to learn new things from old stuff.

Makes you wonder what exactly was lost when certain libraries and places of records were burnt down or otherwise damaged beyond repair. Some places that do keep hold of ancient records like the Vatican may even be sitting on information related to this kind of stuff, but unless their historians or archivists know where to look such information will remain hidden. So scientists will be left to reverse engineer artifacts with interesting properties, provided there is enough interest in such.

WOW! I so did not expect to have such attention on this thread nor did I expect to be on the front page.

I will try and answer everyone as fast as I can. I have a 3mth old now so I'm not on here as much as I use to be. I get on when he is sleeping.

Thanks to everyone who commented, starred and flagged!


I'm glad others found this interesting and I look forward to reading more comments on what you all think.

Thanks!

The Lycurgus Cup is Greek not Roman.

ETA: S&F

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by mblahnikluver

 

My thoughts are, most people presume the ancients were morons because they didn't have Iphones and Windows Phones and used horses and ships to move cargo instead of UPS and FedEx with jumbo jets.

Agreed. We definitely don't give them enough credit.

Imo I think civilizations have had their own forms of technology over thousands if not millions of years and either due to natural catastrophes or their own doing have risen and fallen over and over. I watched the show "Life After People" and it got me thinking. If there were people here millions of years ago and they had an advanced civilization where would we find proof? The show only went up to what 1000yrs? IF there were advanced people here and think there were many times, then we woudln't find much just thr occasional out of place artifact that most can't describe or just dismiss because it doesn't fit in with what we are taught.

Think about what is at the bottom of the oceans and seas. Most of our planet is water and we know more about Mars and the Moon than we do our own bodies of water. Think about what could be buried in the sands across the planet. I mean just look at pics of the Sphinx when it was first found, it was buried to its head. We have no idea what is out there but every now and then we come across something and it opens up a whole can of worms so to speak.

I think there have been civilizations over and over. They had their own forms of technology. Technology doesn't mean what it does to us today, to them they more than likely didn't even have that word! So to them it was just what they learned. We really don't know 100% about any of our ancestors, most is interpretation on what we have found.

There is so much more out there left to be discovered!

Originally posted by Hellas
The Lycurgus Cup is Greek not Roman.

ETA: S&F

edit on 28-8-2013 by Hellas because: (no reason given)

The cup is Roman, Lycurgus is of Greek Mythology.

Having seen the 'cup' in person, at the British Museum, I can confirm it's loveliness. The technology and skill involved in creating the dichroic glass though, pales in comparison to the skill involved in creating the cage work glass. While dichroic technology is alive and kicking, used in filters on telescopes and camera, and of course, 3D films more recently, I doubt that anyone alive has the ability to carve the glass with such skill and precision. A laser could perhaps replicate it, but the combination of artistry and skill to create such a work no longer exists. Likewise, many examples of ancient dichroic glass survive, but no other cagework glass of this standard.

For interests sake, the piece is not believed to have started out as a cup, the stem and lip are a later addition. It is assumed that it started it's life as an oil lamp, which given the dichroic properties of the glass makes much more sense. I personally believe that, given it's high artistry and subject matter, that it belonged in a very rich person's shrine to the mysteries of Dionysus.

What I find most curious about the recent reports though, over the last couple of days, about the cup, is the timing. It has been on loan to the Arts Institute in Chicago for the past nine months...the exhibition that it was included in ended this past Sunday and it is now on it's way back to the British Museum with other pieces that were on loan. Doesn't it seem strangely futile of the Smithsonian to widely publicise the cup now? Unless perhaps they fiddlled with it against express instructions from the British Museum to do so and had to wait until the exhibition was over...though they claim not to have put liquids in the cup...may be they did. Naughty

Originally posted by mblahnikluver

Originally posted by stormcell
That's for that article. Just imagine if you could have drinking glasses that had indicator bands indicating the alcoholic content, bitter, sweet, or had lager, wine, whisky or vodka. I'm imagining gold or silver bands with transparent lettering that would appear on parts of the glass.

Roman's had some amazing objects - there was a novelty water clock based on Medusa, with eyes that changed color with every minute. Every quarter hour a metal ball-bearing would be released by a wood-pecker like bird.

Yes that would be cool!

I have never heard of this clock, sounds amazing. Medusa was always my favorite from the Roman's. She could turn men to stone with a look. Oh how that would have come in handy a few times in my life.

I will have to look up the clock. Thanks.

It's around 25:12 of this link:



For me, it's something that I would expect to see in a novelty/executive toy catalog from the 1980's. I'd imagine that there would be a whole range of themed clocks like these, maybe based on all the different Roman gods. Or maybe they were custom made.

This is interesting...

Lord Rothschild's family has possessed, since the middle of the nineteenth century, one of the most interesting and important extant Roman cut glasses–the famous glass cup with metal mounts, the glass portion of which bears in open-work relief-cutting an elaborate rendering of the scene of the death of Lycurgus, mythical king of the Edoni, at the hands of the Dionysiac rout (pis. LIXLXIV; figs. 1-2). It is not known exactly when the vase was acquired by the Rothschilds, but when it was first mentioned in print in 1845 it was in M. Dubois's hands in Paris and it is thought to have been purchased by the present owner's great-grandfather shortly afterwards (although Michaelis, writing in 1872, did not know its whereabouts). In 1862 it was lent to the South Kensington (now the Victoria and Albert) Museum for a special exhibition. When Kisa was writing his great book on ancient glass in the early years of the present century it was in its Rothschild home and, as Kisa says, was unfortunately not available to him for study. Few, if any, archaeologists can have seen it from that time onwards until the present Lord Rothschild brought it to light again in 1950 and consulted us about its history and affinities. By his kind suggestion we are now enabled to write the present account of the vase, its technique and its artistic import, based on much careful personal study of the piece, and on the excellent series of photographs (pls. LIX-LXIV) which were made for Lord Rothschild by Mr. Edward Leigh of Cambridge. It is indeed surprising that such a fine monument of antiquity has had to wait for more than a century since it was first mentioned in print before it has been possible to give it the full and detailed publication warranted by its importance both as a tour de force of ancient glass-working and as an example of artistic endeavour.

journals.cambridge.org...

The history of the Cup is largely unknown. From its near immaculate condition it is likely that it was generally kept in safe storage and not part of a buried treasure hoard (where it would be exposed to the elements). There are theories that it could have been part of a church collection which was then pilfered in the anarchic days of the French Revolution (a theory based on the gilt bronze rim and foot which are thought to be later additions, dated to the 1800s). Alternatively it could have been buried in the sarcophagus. We do not know when the Cup was unearthed. Our first reference of it comes in 1845 when a French writer described it as “being in the hands of M. Dubois”. The next we hear of the Cup is as part of an exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London in 1862, this time as part of a collection loaned by Lionel De Rothschild. However, after the exhibition the Cup once again disappeared from the historian’s radar.

The Cup finally reappeared in its final resting place, the British Museum who bought it from Victor, the Lord Rothschild in 1958 for £20,000. At the BM it has attracted a large amount of attention as an example of the fine quality of Roman craftsmanship although it is still overshadowed by many of the other amazing artifacts on show.

thedailybeagle.net...

20 grand seems like a bargain price (and sold by Victor, my favourite Rothschild!)...according to the historic inflation calculator that I used, that equates to £396,676.00 in today's money...still, I think the British Museum got a good deal.

Fascinating stuff. I wonder who cared for it so well throughout the preceding centuries.

Originally posted by mblahnikluver

Originally posted by eManym
I suspect it was probably used to detect the various poisons of the time. If the wine wasn't the usual color in the glass then there was an indication of something added to it.

Evidence of advanced scientific knowledge, ahead of its time.

edit on 27-8-2013 by eManym because: (no reason given)

This is what to came to mind for me as well.

I mean what would be the point of doing it for looks? It could have been for looks but it seems like the Roman's did this for a reason. I guess we can only speculate.

Speculate no longer then...the Romans knew that both Silver and Gold are very effective antimicrobials. They discovered that liquids stored in Silver or Gold amphora or jugs, Milk, wine and oils etc, lasted longer before spoiling in Silver and Gold than any other materials used for vessels.

This might be an extension of that knowledge.

Let's look at the evidence we have; A cup that alters it's appearance, due to a reaction of the nano particles and whatever is poured into it.

We know Romans knew about the benefits of the metals in health and purification areas, so they presumably wanted to know why this was? How could these metals do this, when other materials can't?

Questions we would ask ourselves today.

The cup could have been deliberately designed as a poison detector...seriously. If you take an average Roman Emperor or bigwig attending a feast or Orgy, swigging from a wine filled ornate cup that looks bright red because it has wine in it. You go off for a moment, and curiously and suddenly the ornate cup has changed from bright red to an emrald green?

You have a poison detector, an ancient 'Automatic Roman Food taster and monitor'.

Ingenious of them if this was true...who knows it could be, evidence may be tenuous, but supports it.

It would have saved the odd unfortunate Human food taster a bitter end from poison assassination attempts too.

Glad to see you were able to reach more members than me, regarding such a wonderful object. Thank you.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by mblahnikluver

Originally posted by Hellas
The Lycurgus Cup is Greek not Roman.

ETA: S&F

edit on 28-8-2013 by Hellas because: (no reason given)

The cup is Roman, Lycurgus is of Greek Mythology.

Yes, it is roman :

The Lycurgus cup was created by the Romans in 400 A.D. Made of a dichroic glass

engineering.illinois.edu...

Fantastic read. Thanks for sharing. I often refuse to believe we are "superior" to the ancients....

Thanks for posting, I really appreciated the read

reply to post by Trueman


Wow! That is technical stuff...the full paper here...

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

I had to do a lot of switching back and forth to Google for definition of terms.

From the littler that I can gather, it seems that gold nanoparticles are currently in use in the fields of bio-imaging and photonics. While silver is in use in biological sensor detection and nanotoxicology. It is the combined use, at these particular ratios, of silver and collodial gold, as in the Lycurgus Cup, that is the 'break through', which bring the two properties together as a potential diagnostic tool.

I think...

Very interesting, thanks for linking to that...I've starred and flagged your thread too, credit where it is due...

Originally posted by RAY1990
reply to post by James1982

 

True, but they (past cultures) understood the methods to get the desired effect and didn't knock it.

Do you think ancient blacksmiths knew the science behind making good steel? No of course they didn't, they did however know the method of making a more superior steel such as the folding technique.

To be honest I don't think any culture knew the reason of why these techniques work, but they understood following certain methods will give certain desired results. Trial and error was the key with a touch of superstition.

Oh and the documentary where I have seen this cup before was Treasures of Ancient Rome. Was a good watch.

edit on 28-8-2013 by RAY1990 because: more to add

Oh absolutely, ancient artisans and craftsmen were incredibly talented. For what resources and scientific knowledge they had, I'd say they easily surpass their modern day equivalents.

I just wanted to head off any ancient alien talk before it began, as I've heard these examples used as proof as such before.

Just an amazing piece of art.

While I don't believe the ancients had secret sources of power (or connections.. i.e. aliens), I do think they were incredibly more clever than most assume.

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
I came across this in my Facebook feed via Smithsonian Magazine and found it interesting so I thought i'd share. I checked and didn't see it posted but if it has please direct me to it.

The glass chalice, known as the Lycurgus Cup because it bears a scene involving King Lycurgus of Thrace, appears jade green when lit from the front but blood-red when lit from behind—a property that puzzled scientists for decades after the museum acquired the cup in the 1950s. The mystery wasn’t solved until 1990, when researchers in England scrutinized broken fragments under a microscope and discovered that the Roman artisans were nanotechnology pioneers: They’d impregnated the glass with particles of silver and gold, ground down until they were as small as 50 nanometers in diameter, less than one-thousandth the size of a grain of table salt. The exact mixture of the precious metals suggests the Romans knew what they were doing—“an amazing feat,” says one of the researchers, archaeologist Ian Freestone of University College London.

Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com... 7et5W
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

How cool! The cup is 1600 yrs old and it's a beautiful piece. The article states there were some tests done not on the cup but with the methods used in the cup to see how it reacted with different liquids such as water or other things like salt. It seems each one gives a different color when it reacts with the gold and silver particles. Pretty interesting! It also says that this kind of "tech" could possibly be used to detect harmful disease or pathogens in saliva. Here is that part of the article. I'm not good at explaining this kind of stuff.

The article says this:

nce the researchers couldn’t put liquid into the precious artifact itself, they instead imprinted billions of tiny wells onto a plastic plate about the size of a postage stamp and sprayed the wells with gold or silver nanoparticles, essentially creating an array with billions of ultra-miniature Lycurgus Cups. When water, oil, sugar solutions and salt solutions were poured into the wells, they displayed a range of easy-to-distinguish colors—light green for water and red for oil, for example. The proto­type was 100 times more sensitive to altered levels of salt in solution than current commercial sensors using similar techniques. It may one day make its way into handheld devices for detecting pathogens in samples of saliva or urine, or for thwarting terrorists trying to carry dangerous liquids onto airplanes.

Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com... t5YOh
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

I think this would be great to use to detect diseases in saliva or whatever else it can be used for. I just hope someone doesn't it use it for the wrong reasons.

What are your thoughts?

Source

i.huffpost.com...

reply to post by mblahnikluver


The gold and silver wasn't ground it was vaporised in a furnace, and blown onto molten glass. This technique is called "fuming". This is how color changing glass pipes are made.
Google Bob Snodgrass. He popularised this technique in the late '60s.
Not exactly nanotech, but pretty darn advanved for the Romans.

Originally posted by pauljs75
Some places that do keep hold of ancient records like the Vatican may even be sitting on information related to this kind of stuff, but unless their historians or archivists know where to look such information will remain hidden.

The Vatican Library has been open to researcher since the 1880's the oldest document they have is from the 8th century. The Vatican Library has been looted/ damaged a number of times too.