Worldwide Persecution of Christians - End Times Prophecy

reply to post by Duskangels


Uh the science of biology has a heavy hand in evolution. You know - that science that our medical advances use...

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Originally posted by Evil_Santa

Buddhists have been persecuted for thousands of years already by Islam. There's regions of Pakistan where the local folklore about the statues of Buddha is that the statue is a demon locked in stone by allah.

edit on 27-8-2013 by Evil_Santa because: (no reason given)

You know what? I am talking about AMERICANS being harassed for free speech in AMERICA. I don't like and am horrified at the treatment of Tibetans and Buddhists in other countries, but I cannot do anything but pray for them. I am an American. I am watching our rights being taken away at every turn. When the laws are applied like this to the causes you care about and they use the precedence of attacking Christians then what will you do?

Apparently, you will say it happens to Buddhists in China! That is just ridiculous!

The poster i was replying to brought up Buddhists and I wanted to bring in the fact that they're persecuted in that region of the world.

Your OP was about Christians being harassed across the world, not just in America. Here in America, there's zero fear to be killed based upon your religious preferences.

In the middle east, you can be killed for not being Islamic, or insulting the religion... yes. That is how their culture works.

In Africa, Christians will burn you alive for being "a witch".

Seriously (WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGE AT THIS LINK!) www.thecontroversialfiles.net...

So here's what I see. Christians saying that all this bad stuff is happening only to them, and ignoring what followers of their own religion are doing to others in less developed regions of the world.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Did Jesus really exist?
Some people think that Jesus is only ever talked about in the Bible and that no other evidence exists to show Jesus lived about 2000 years ago. This is not true at all! Below is a list of some of the historians, of first and early second century, who mention Jesus of Nazareth (or the Christ) as an historical figure who existed in the first century.

Thallus (c. 50-75AD)

Thallus was one of the first Gentile historians to mention Christ. His writings have disappeared but we know of them from the writing of others, such as Julius Africanus (about AD 221) who quotes from Thallas. One of his quotes includes reference to the darkness that occurred at the crucifixion and suggests that a total eclipse was the cause. Julius points out in his writing the impossibility of this since the festival of Passover, when Jesus was crucified, occurs at full moon (eclipses only occur at a new moon).

Phlegon (First century)

Phlego was a first century historian whose 'Chronicles' have now been lost, but he is quoted by other early writers. He mentions the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus saying that "an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon".

Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

Flavius Jospehus was a Jewish historian who became commander of the Jewish forces in Galilee in AD 66, just after the time of Jesus. He writes in his 'Antiquities', "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was the doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Josephus also mentions James "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ" and how James was put to death in AD 62 after accusation by Annas the High priest.

Pliny the Younger (c. 61-113)

Pliny the Younger was governor of Bithinia in Asia Minor around AD 110 and wrote to the emperor Trajan (for whom he worked) concerning Christians. He had been putting Christians to death for their faith and making them bow down to Trajan's statue. He records how, in their defence, the Christians described their meetings for worship which included singing "a hymn to Christ as a god".

Tacitus (Annals, c. 115-120)

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian born in about 53 AD. Writing in his 'Annals' (c. 110 AD) about the reign of Nero, he describes how Nero accused the Christians of burning down Rome. He states that "The name (Christians) is derived from Christ who the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius".

Suetonius (c. 125)

Suetonius was a Roman historian, the source of most of what we know of the caesars from Julius Caesar to Domitian, refers to "Chrestus" (another spelling of Christus) in his 'Life of Claudius'. He reports how Claudius expelled the christians from Rome in AD 49, which is mentioned in Acts 18 v 2. Suetonius also writes of the punishment of Christians by Nero.

Justin Martyr (c. 150)

Justin Martyr addressed his 'Defence of Christianity' to the Emperor Antonius Pius and in it describes Jesus' crucifixion, how he was nailed to the cross and how his clothes were divided among the soldiers by casting lots. He also refers the Emperor to "the 'Acts' which were recorded by Pontius Pilate", these being Pilate's own report of the crucifixion which Justin supposed the Emperor had access to.

Tertullian (c. 155-220)

Tertullian in a defence of Christianity called 'Apology' (AD 197), mentions the following exchange between Tiberius and Pontius Pilate. "Tiberius accordingly, in those days the Christian name made it's entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favour of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal."

Mara Bar-Serapion (pre-180)

Mara Bar-Serapion wrote to his son a letter which is now in the British Museum. In this letter he refers to Jesus as the King of the Jews, stating that they (the Jews) had crucified him.

Lucian (Second century)

Lucian of Samosta lived in the second century and was scornful of Christ but described how he "introduce this new cult into the world" and was "crucified in Palestine" because of it.
www.whybelieve.com...

reply to post by windword

Dr. Gary Habermas, the world's leading scholar on the resurrection of Christ, debunks the swoon theory.

reply to post by texastig


ALL of your citations have been summarily debunked, over and over again! And, the "Swoon Theory" has in NO WAY been debunked. I would go into it more, but it's off topic for this thread.

reply to post by texastig


OK lets take these one at a time.

Thallus (c. 50-75AD)

Thallus was one of the first Gentile historians to mention Christ. His writings have disappeared but we know of them from the writing of others, such as Julius Africanus (about AD 221) who quotes from Thallas. One of his quotes includes reference to the darkness that occurred at the crucifixion and suggests that a total eclipse was the cause. Julius points out in his writing the impossibility of this since the festival of Passover, when Jesus was crucified, occurs at full moon (eclipses only occur at a new moon).


Phlegon (First century)

Phlego was a first century historian whose 'Chronicles' have now been lost, but he is quoted by other early writers. He mentions the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus saying that "an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon".

The only thing we know for certain is someone called Julias Africanus wrote about someone who supposedly wrote about Jesus over 221 years after the supposed resurrection. 221 year later. The writings also mention a eclipse which was impossible and earth quakes again not recorded. Same thing for Phlego except we have no writings from him.

Here is a good look into these claims which properly debunks them. www.infidels.org...

Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

It was published about A.D. 78, when Josephus was about 40 years old. The next work to be published was The Jewish Antiquities, about sixteen years later. So he heard a story and wrote about it. He wasn’t even borne at the time the story supposedly took place. Do the math.

Pliny the Younger (c. 61-113)
Tacitus (Annals, c. 115-120)
Suetonius (c. 125)
Justin Martyr (c. 150)
Tertullian (c. 155-220)
Lucian (Second century)

Yes we all know Christians existed but that does not prove Jesus did and that is all those above talked about were Christians.

Mara bar ("son of ") Serapion, sometimes spelled Mara bar Sarapion was a Stoic philosopher from the Roman province of Syria. He is noted for a letter he wrote in Syriac to his son, who was also named Serapion.[1][2] The letter was composed sometime after 73 AD but before the 3rd century, and most scholars date it to shortly after AD 73 during the first century.[3] The letter may be an early non-Christian reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.[1][4]
The letter includes no Christian themes[2][4] and many scholars consider Mara a pagan,[2][4][6][7] although a small number suggest he may have been a monotheist.[3] Some scholars see the reference to the execution of the "wise king" of the Jews as an early non-Christian reference to Jesus.[1][2][4] Criteria that support the non-Christian origin of the letter include the observation that "king of the Jews" was not a Christian title, and that the letter's premise that Jesus lives on based on the wisdom of his teachings is in contrast to the Christian concept that Jesus continues to live through his resurrection.[4][5]

Scholars such as Robert Van Voorst see little doubt that the reference to the execution of the "king of the Jews" is about the death of Jesus.[5] Others such as Craig A. Evans see less value in the letter, given its uncertain date, and the possible ambiguity in the reference.
en.wikipedia.org...

Still written about 73 years later and in question at that. You have to do some real mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that any of that qualifies as proof. Did you even look into those claims beyond the site you got them from did you even try to see if the information was in question? That is why I can't trust anything presented as evidence from religious supporters they do not even try to be honest about it. Though shall not lie unless it is to further thy religious agenda.

reply to post by windword


They have not been debunked.
For the swoon theory:
carm.org...

reply to post by Grimpachi


www.garyhabermas.com...
Chapter IX
Ancient Non-Christian Sources

Continuing our historical investigation into the early sources for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, we turn next to the ancient non Christian sources. We will move, successively, from ancient historians, to government officials, to other Jewish and Gentile sources, to early gnostic sources and then to lost works that speak of Jesus.

reply to post by texastig


This is nonsense, and off topic. If you want to discuss proof of the existence of Jesus and his resurrection, start your own thread.

This thread is about "Worldwide Persecution of Christians - End Times Prophecy", not about the validity of Christianity.

reply to post by windword


You should tell that to the others who started being off topic first. I'm just defending Christianity.

reply to post by Grimpachi


If you knew history, anything from 100 years back is very viable for historians.

We have early attestation, meaning that there was no time for myths or fables.

We have 1 Corinthians which is 25 years after Jesus resurrection, you won't find
any other ancient texts that close as the Bible is.The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were more than 400 years following his death. And in 1 Corinthians 15 we have the early creed which historians look for.

We have multiple attestation and that is what historians look for.

Then we have eyewitness testimony.

Then we the Bibliographic Test.

Then we have the Internal Test.

Then we have the External Test.

reply to post by texastig

Tacitus recorded at least one reference to Christ and two to early Christianity, one in each of his major works. The most important one is that found in the Annals, written about 115 A.D. The following was recounted concerning the great fire in Rome during the reign of Nero:

Do you not see the problem with this???/

115 A.D.

I do not think it is too much to ask for a firsthand account of someone seeing a Jesus not a version of a Chinese phone drill passing messages. People knew how to write back then we know that. We also know there were Christians that in no way proves there was a Christ there were followers of all types of religions does that prove all the other gods. I think not.
Some of the people you listed also wrote about Hercules as a factual person.

Look there are other writings about two other so called messiahs from that same period the fable around Jesus is much older than he was supposed to be. The entire mythos persona looks fabricated in fact the Apostle Paul never referred to a historical Jesus there are ancient novels from that period where the hero is condemned to the cross and even crucified, but he escapes and survives. Look maybe there was someone named Jesus but all the gospels about him reached the authors, they had already been cast and recast through oral traditions for several decades, all of which shines serious doubt on the validity. Earlier in this thread I posted a source to a newly discovered tablet predating Jesus telling a very similar myth. Everything about the story seems fabricated borrowed from older myth.

reply to post by texastig

We have early attestation, meaning that there was no time for myths or fables

You have to be joking. Did you completely skip over my post showing 20 to 30 mythos that are similar to the Jesus Myth? Even the one recently discover tablet which casts doubt on the entire Jesus premise which could mean it is a sequal?????

One more time around

reply to post by Grimpachi


No myths:
Dr. Gary Habermas, the worlds leading scholar on the resurrection of Christ.
"Dionysus no resurrection."
"No evidence for a resurrection of Mithra prior to the time of Christ."
Horus, "No pre-Christian resurrection."
"Attis is not presented as being resurrected until after the middle of the second century A.D."

Dr. Edwin Bryant, is Professor of Hinduism at Rutgers University and a scholar on Hinduism. He translated the Bhagavata-Purana (life of Krishna) for Peguine World Classics and is the author of Krishna: A Sourcebook. When asked about the claim that Krishna [a Hindu god] had been crucified, he replied, "That is absolute and complete non-sense. There is absolutely no mention anywhere which alludes to a crucifixion." He added that Krishna was killed by an arrow from a hunter who accidentally shot him in the heel. He died and ascended. It was not a resurrection. (Cited in "A Refutation of Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy" by Mike Licona. The Christ Conspiracy is the source for many of the claims in Zeitgeist).

Dr. Edwin Yamauchi says, "Krishna was born to a mother who already had seven previous sons, as even his followers concede."

Dr. Norman Geisler writes,“The first real parallel of a dying and rising god does not appear until A.D. 150, more than a hundred years after the origin of Christianity.”

Dr. Gary Habermas and Dr. J.P. Moreland write, “Not one clear case of any alleged resurrection teaching appears in any pagan text before the late second century A.D., almost one hundred years after the New Testament was written.”

Charlie Campbell says,
“To insist that Jesus Christ is a myth—that He never existed—as the Zeitgeist movie does, is foolish.
Beside the twenty seven New Testament documents that verify He lived, there are thirty nine sources outside of the Bible, written within 150 years of Jesus life that mention Him. These sources include the Jewish Talmud, the Roman historian Tacitus, the Didache, Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, the Gnostic gospels (e.g., the gospel of Thomas), etc. These extra-biblical sources reveal to us more than 100 facts about His life, teaching, death and even resurrection.”

reply to post by Grimpachi


Do you really think that story casts doubts on the 'entire' Jesus premise with the following phrases below?

could challenge

The tablet appears

If true

might even hint

However, such a contentious reading of the 87-line tablet depends on creative interpretation of a smudged passage, making it the latest entry in the woulda/coulda/shoulda category of possible New Testament artifacts;

came to light about a decade ago

think it may

maybe the Christians had a model to work from

In three days, you shall live.
That phrase has nothing to do with a resurrection.

reply to post by texastig


What? are you trying to assert that Jesus was the first resurrected god? What about the Egyptians?

The solar disk rises every morning, traverses the sky and, at the end of each day, descends into hell, darkness, etc., to battle it's evil counterpart, and rises again the next morning victorious. This is the oldest source of resurrection myth. Jesus is only the most recent of the many resurrected gods.

As far as any loony but ambitious doctor's opinion or pathologist's autopsy on a non existent corpse to prove that Jesus, if he existed, did die and therefore MUST have been resurrected, because the Bible says so...........That's just more desperation to try to prove an impossible myth to an ever growing critical audience.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Do I really need to pull up quotes from historians that say Jesus was a manufactured persona from other religions?

History is a VERY effective form of mind control.

By believing it, not only are you being deceived...

But you are also going to have one HECK of a time sorting out the truth from the lies.

"The falsification of history has done more to impede human development than any one thing known to mankind" - Rousseau

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other person in all of ancient history.

The Illuminati worship Lucifer and have been working for over 6,000 years to manipulate the existence of Jesus as a mere myth.

That should be your biggest clue.

How can you be so blind as to the irony and absolute deception of this?

Nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed.

This is a TON of information about the man we know as Jesus and all of it comes from witnesses who were HOSTILE to the truth claims of Christianity!

Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

"Here is a fact: There is far more evidence for the existence of Jesus than for virtually anyone in ancient history. Anyone who peddles that “Christ-myth” theory, does NOT do so on the ground of historical evidence. The fact of Jesus Christ in history is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as is the fact of Julius Caesar. Get this straight. It is not historians who promote the “Christ-myth” notion. ...his alleged words and actions were documented by numerous people." LINK

reply to post by Murgatroid


All of history is fabricated except for the one you happen to believe in. Sounds legit.

reply to post by windword


Yes, Jesus was the first to die and resurrect. Dying and rising gods don't not appear until A.D. 150.
Not one clear case of any alleged resurrection teaching appears in any pagan text before the late second century A.D.
All resurrection myths came after Jesus.

The doctors are historians and scholars who have devoted their lives to historic research of Christ.
Jesus did exist just like Alexander the Great, Caesar, etc...

You don't understand what historians look for in ancient texts. The Bible is a ancient historical book like other ancient historical books. Historians apply the same historical standards to all of them and the Bible comes out in front.




There's no desperation or myth. It is all facts.

reply to post by Murgatroid


You guys keep putting the same bogus arguments out there, that have been debunked time and time again. When are you guys going to admit that your beliefs rest on faith and faith alone? There is NO evidence, outside of the Bible that proves the existence of the Biblical character of Jesus.