Make everything 'Free': A Voluntegalitarian System (utopia)

what about disabled people who can`t work do they get nothing?
basically we would all have to work until the day we die no matter how old we live to be.

Why would a doctor continue practicing medicine if he can get the same benefits by quitting medicine, moving to florida and operating a sail boat rental place?

What incentive would there be for young people to spend years going to college to be a doctor or engineer if they can get the same benefits by starting their own company selling solar powered flashlights?They probably won`t "sell" any flashlights but technically they have a job and are working so they would qualify for all the free stuff.
just think of how many new "rap" artist there would be, they might not sell a single CD but technically they are employed and working as a "rap" singer so they are entitled to all the free stuff.

Most people are in their particular field of work out of necessity not because they enjoy what they are doing.

in a world of free stuff I would sit on the beach all day drinking beer and fishing, I may never catch a fish but technically my occupation would be that of a fisherman and I would qualify for all the free stuff.

Originally posted by TheWrightWing

I do not wish to be equal.

We are born equal, from there its up to you.

I want more than a concrete hovel & daily turnip from The State.

I am convinced I deserve better than what The State determines I will get for "Free".

then work more. is that a problem? dont ppl who get rich and become "more equal than others" claiming that they worked their butts off? nothing's changed. work harder and you get more.

Oh, thank the Glorious State for its Beneficence!

Because surely there is not even a small chance that this system would be used to reward friends and punish enemies, considering the Fact that humans are above temptation and are basically, incorruptible.

Right?

Komrade, you are Most Equal!

the swiftly changing government representatives will leave little room for such things. they wont get the time to make elbow buddies in government. a system of swift protocols must be adhered to and those found attempting to circumvent the protocols in positions of administration(no longer positions of influence) will effectively be banned from holding government administration positions for life. the protocols will be refined to ensure a pure ethical practice by those in administration. or they will never get re-elected to a government position. ever.

effectively there is full transparency and no files or administration requests can be denied to the public. the government administrators and their daily duties can be overseen by members of the general public, evaluated, auditted etc. there is nowhere to hide.

Originally posted by filledcup
then work more. is that a problem? dont ppl who get rich and become "more equal than others" claiming that they worked their butts off? nothing's changed. work harder and you get more.

And how is that any different from capitalism?

Originally posted by Tardacus
what about disabled people who can`t work do they get nothing?
basically we would all have to work until the day we die no matter how old we live to be.

no please also read my other responses they hold these answers. but you all can also suggest answers to foreseen problems. you wont have to work till the day you die. we will institute retirement plans just as we do now.

disabled ppl can contribute in a number of ways including passing various levels of study through school. a wheelchair would not prevent someone from being able to function in an office environment doing data entry for example. there are jobs available for everyone.

if someone is too disabled to function in society then it is all the same. their family will care for them and they will not be required to work.

Why would a doctor continue practicing medicine if he can get the same benefits by quitting medicine, moving to florida and operating a sail boat rental place?

dont be corroded by today's world in this new one. many ppl work jobs they hate to pay the bills now. but the doctors of this world would become doctors out of a genuine childhood dream to become a doctor and help sick ppl and animals. they will be privy to access medical courses and degrees in college, all contributing to their hrs worked in the system during their time of study.

What incentive would there be for young people to spend years going to college to be a doctor or engineer if they can get the same benefits by starting their own company selling solar powered flashlights?They probably won`t "sell" any flashlights but technically they have a job and are working so they would qualify for all the free stuff.
just think of how many new "rap" artist there would be, they might not sell a single CD but technically they are employed and working as a "rap" singer so they are entitled to all the free stuff.

this is a good question.
what would happen in today's world if they started selling flashlights but could get noone to buy them? theyd starve and die. what ur suggesting is someone to fraudulently create a company to simulate that they are partaking in society while theyre actually playing xbox all day.

but they will have to somehow account for their time contributed. and the authorities monitor these things through a timeclock system. in essence, each company will be evaluated before the timeclock system is networked to their compound. if they are not selling any flashlights, then the company will eventually become disolved as it provides a service that is not required by society.

it's not much different.. as i said.. if u start a company and it goes bust.. ur out of business.

Most people are in their particular field of work out of necessity not because they enjoy what they are doing.

in a world of free stuff I would sit on the beach all day drinking beer and fishing, I may never catch a fish but technically my occupation would be that of a fisherman and I would qualify for all the free stuff.

my sentiments exactly. as above, they work to pay bills, but only because their childhood dream was denied to them due to multiple limiting factors, including financial, college course availability, ability to fly to a foreign country to study that field etc.

you also have that option. to not partake in society and provide for yourself. however.. where will u get new clothes? and toilet paper? gas for your car? ull only be able to relax on the beach for so long before you need to get back out and contribute to benefit from all that life has to offer. which is pretty much everything. to try to cheat the system will literally be cheating yourself.

reply to post by filledcup


The problem here is this: with all of the "foreseen" problems that you're addressing, you've essentially recreated the same system we have, with one exception, the currency is labor, rather than the dollar, pound, ruble, franc, euro etc.

Capitalism is still Capitalism regardless of what the currency is.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos

Originally posted by filledcup
then work more. is that a problem? dont ppl who get rich and become "more equal than others" claiming that they worked their butts off? nothing's changed. work harder and you get more.

And how is that any different from capitalism?

edit on 8/26/2013 by ProfessorChaos because: typo

because.. the bank ceo is paid equally to the burger flipper at mcdonalds.

if the bank ceo works 4 hrs a day, he will enjoy the same benefits of the burger flipper who works 4 hrs a day. the human resource is given the ultimate value in society. and everyone's time and contribution is regarded as equally important. because it is.

Originally posted by TLomon
Hours of work also doesn't equate to quality of work or skill needed to do the work.

You can't walk into a car manufacturer and work there without experience. I would assume you would need some training. Just like I wouldn't expect anyone to walk off the street and be able to do my job.

agreed, but level of skill required is not a factor in this society. what is heavy for the man is lighter for the giant. if you are capable at functioning at a 'higher skill level' as you call it, then it would be your choice to partake in that particular field. competition is to be eliminated among the working class. and all levels of work chosen by an individual's innate natural talent and choice of direction/study and work.

but.. "everyone's a genius. but if u judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree it will live it's whole life believing it is stupid" Einstein.

people will be able to find their niche unhindered by financial restraints. and their natural talents and passions exaggerated by training in a field of their choice.


you could however walk into a car manufacturing job and gain OJT. not to mention.. in such a society.. doors never close. all companies run 24/7 and volunteers who prefer different time allocations can work at night vs those who prefer to work during the day etc.

What is the point of having someone wash the dishes if they do such a poor job that you need to wash them again later?

If all that matters is hours worked, then what is the incentive to actually learn higher skilled trades?

Just a few flaws I am seeing in this system.

good points and very constructive criticism.
indeed productivity and efficiency would need to be monitored. but remember, this system will create a different work ethic within staff. many staff do a poor job simply because they are disinterested or disgruntled about the job. they have no care nor passion for what they do. shift them into the area where they are passionate about and feel justifiably rewarded.. and u gain a much better work ethic. but in today's world a man who just works a #ty job to pay the bills will not perform as well as the man who loves what he does and does not face financial woes to fulfill his needs.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos

Originally posted by filledcup
then work more. is that a problem? dont ppl who get rich and become "more equal than others" claiming that they worked their butts off? nothing's changed. work harder and you get more.

And how is that any different from capitalism?

edit on 8/26/2013 by ProfessorChaos because: typo

there is another aspect that provides the difference that i should bring to focus.

Crime.
many are subject to a life of crime which originated from a life of poverty. not being able to afford school books, food, transport, college fees etc because both parents are very low income earners. it may take a generation or two. but poverty will be FULLY eradicated. removing envy, removing unfairness. providing full equal opportunity to pursue one's dreams and goals in life.

ask the poor children what they want to be when they grow up. some want to be vets, doctors, they want a house by the sea. but with no opportunity whatsoever to attain those goals in a feasible manner life can become depressingly hopeless to them. forced to work jobs they hate with managers who treat them like garbage. contributing to the disdain and depression. with nothing to lose they strike out at the system unhindered by the threat of punishment in legislation. and crime is formed. they pursue selling drugs and stealing.. and those who try to 'rat them out' as they are trying the only way that seems available to pursue the acquisition of their goals.. creates murder. in their view.. the 'rat' is affecting their livelihood, he is threatening their survival. and that is what creates crimes such as these.

the most major goal of this system is to eradicate poverty, crime, and mental slavery through psychological badgering. such as children laughing at them because they have a hole in their socks at school. or theyre the only one who's family cant afford to buy them an iphone for christmas.

the goals are socially oriented for the system. attacking the root of the major problems faced by capitalism.

at least with this system, they can know that by working 8hrs a day for 5 years they would be entered into the bracket that affords them the materials and workforce to build a house by the sea. at least they will know that when they finish high school. they will 100% get into a course on becoming a veterinarian.. etc

Because of the very greedy and stubborn nature of human soceity, it'd be impossible to impose a new set of rules at this present time in evolution. We'd need a revolution....or apocalypse to be able to start from scratch (and of course a central governing body run by the 'people' free from corruption.

With that in mind, I would propose the following....

For starters, in a world without money, a lot of today's common problems would be irradiated completely, including drugs, hunger, prostitution and robbery to name but a few......all founded on the basis of the desire to accumulate money.

People would have to get rid of the notion of greed to start with, and everybody must be prepared to never desire more than they every need. Need a car? Fair enough choose one. You won't need 3 cars though.

Children from a young age will be encouraged to select a career to suit soceity based entire only their interests and skill set. Determined by a number of tests to decide which career path they will be taken on.

Everybody works for everybody. Humans are no longer limited by budgets to further develop technology. Artificial Intelligence is eventually reached to assist in soceity, along with developing plans to establish clean, renewable energy sources.

Everybody can have any house of their desire, with the only set back based on time restraint rather than money. Everybody can take advantage of using the people's workforce for any task they require providing they out back into the service of mankind.

That's only a really basic element, but it really could work, we've its gotta stop the greed.

Originally posted by Just Chris
Because of the very greedy and stubborn nature of human soceity, it'd be impossible to impose a new set of rules at this present time in evolution. We'd need a revolution....or apocalypse to be able to start from scratch (and of course a central governing body run by the 'people' free from corruption.

With that in mind, I would propose the following....

For starters, in a world without money, a lot of today's common problems would be irradiated completely, including drugs, hunger, prostitution and robbery to name but a few......all founded on the basis of the desire to accumulate money.

People would have to get rid of the notion of greed to start with, and everybody must be prepared to never desire more than they every need. Need a car? Fair enough choose one. You won't need 3 cars though.

Children from a young age will be encouraged to select a career to suit soceity based entire only their interests and skill set. Determined by a number of tests to decide which career path they will be taken on.

Everybody works for everybody. Humans are no longer limited by budgets to further develop technology. Artificial Intelligence is eventually reached to assist in soceity, along with developing plans to establish clean, renewable energy sources.

Everybody can have any house of their desire, with the only set back based on time restraint rather than money. Everybody can take advantage of using the people's workforce for any task they require providing they out back into the service of mankind.

That's only a really basic element, but it really could work, we've its gotta stop the greed.

very good post.

i just dont like the word 'impossible'

i would add, that for us to agree upon this 'utopian' system. the masses would first have to believe within themselves that they 'Deserve it'. but in an undeserving state of mind they will have problems rolling with the change.

reply to post by filledcup


Oh I see, so there would be a government agency to oversee everyone and decide if each person is contributing enough to society, no thanks I`ll opt out of that utopia.

Yes in the future it will come about.
but for now?
to much greed and lust for power.
a ape or magpie that likes the shiny.

to much Hate born of Hate.
stop hating the haters!
then hate has No Food!

Originally posted by filledcup
what would happen in today's world if they started selling flashlights but could get noone to buy them?
if they are not selling any flashlights, then the company will eventually become disolved as it provides a service that is not required by society.

And how long does your society give each company a chance to fuction before it is banned, forbidden and shut down against the will of the owner? It is known that lots of small businesses go through hard times at the beginning before they become "known" and they get enough returning customers to become profitable.
I'd suggest two years.

However, you do realise that the scenario put forward earlier is still unworkable?
After two years, the solar flashlight company gets shut down by TPTB authorities, but the next day the same owner starts up a slide rule shop. Everybody wants slide rules, right?

If that becomes banned and a shutdown is imposed, then after two years they open a shop that sells second hand staplers.

And so on, each time operning a shop, or service, or becomes an "artist", that has effectively no customers, and gives them all the spare time they need to play.

I would volunteer to be one of the monitors to keep track of peoples hours of production.
Would that come with a uniform? Perhaps with a brown shirt.
Maybe some jack boots so I could stomp around with authority to encourage the peons to produce more in their work time.
Maybe i could use something like a cattle prod to help me encourage them.

Maybe if I recorded extra hours of work for tham, they would do something nice for me.

reply to post by filledcup

if a janitor want a benz, he could get one, as long as he dont mind waiting in line for all who want one depending on manufacturing speed and availability.

I do not think that it would work very well and of course it would perpetuate cast systems "the pigs will think they are different" (ref. animal farm), now if you abolish (reshape) concepts of private property then it could be practical.

No matter how you repackage it or try to define it, you are describing COMMUNISM.

www.merriam-webster.com...

Definition of COMMUNISM
1
a : a theory advocating elimination of private property
b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2
capitalized
a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
d : communist systems collectively

You are describing and ideal and then there is reality. Your own words tell why it will not work.

Question: Pride,Greed, Jealousy. if u cant make those things disappear this plan is useless.

Answer: those are targets to be eliminated with such a system. yes such elements will still exist at the start. but as time goes by and everyone is able to pursue every avenue, even switch thru 10 college courses b4 they find the field they really want to spend the rest of their life doing that should change. at the end of the day.. therell be nothing to envy since everyone got the same opportunity as u, if u greedy just work more and get more stuff.

You can not change human nature. Communism has been tried and human nature keeps shining through. An elite class has risen to take advantage.

yes such elements will still exist at the start

This is where the elite class rises from and takes over. If these elements exist at the start, people will take advantage and set themselves in positions of power. Thus changing the whole "everyone is equal" ideal into the reality of people putting themselves in a powerful position and doing everything they can to maintain that power. This is why the ideal will never work. You can not eliminate greed and ego at the very beginning thus it will never be eliminated. It's a vicious circle. Greed and ego beget power and power changes the dynamic.

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by filledcup

 

if a janitor want a benz, he could get one, as long as he dont mind waiting in line for all who want one depending on manufacturing speed and availability.

I do not think that it would work very well and of course it would perpetuate cast systems "the pigs will think they are different" (ref. animal farm), now if you abolish (reshape) concepts of private property then it could be practical.

yes i think things like patents etc should be reshaped as you said. if an inventor discovers something new and useful, the"patent bodies" would evaluate it's usefulness and potential demand making it a societal contribution. with the original inventor at the helm of the mass production process. but not owning the invention exclusively. in this way he is rewarded his allotment into the system by contributing it to society to share in.

if he designs something that he does not wish to make public then it is his private hobby.. a painting for example which he painted himself and would like to keep. he may also have the option of putting it up for sale at an art gallery. ppl would then bid with 'hrs in their account' for the acquisition of the painting.. and the winning bid gets his bid transferred to the original artist.

it is just a suggestion. something to think about. of course the system is incomplete as i mentioned. and commend those supporting as well those picking it apart for errors equally.

ive put forth a template. much needs to be filled in. i may not be able to think of everything. so please feel free to post suggestions as well to problems foreseen.

Originally posted by Tardacus
reply to post by filledcup

 

Oh I see, so there would be a government agency to oversee everyone and decide if each person is contributing enough to society, no thanks I`ll opt out of that utopia.

lets not forget that the ppl will also oversee the government. all files can be requested by any member of the general public for scrutiny of improper practices by administrating officials.

it's a work in progress. consider suggesting ways to improve on it. you are also free to do so in this 'discussion'

reply to post by filledcup


Here is a perfect example.

the only aspect that can be meagerly compared to communism, is in the fact that certain instituted bodies (government) will be responsible for the fair and orderly allocation of resources, products and services to all who make a request for say an iphone. These bodies working inter-connectedly, will place each request in a queue, and each person will receive their request based on availability and their position in the queue for that particular item.

So someone in the government is responsible for this. What happens when a friend puts in a request. This 'responsible person' places their friend at the front of the queue. It's human nature. Then they have power over their friend. "I did you a favor. When election time comes you have to vote for me." and they stay in power and equality is lost.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by filledcup
what would happen in today's world if they started selling flashlights but could get noone to buy them?
if they are not selling any flashlights, then the company will eventually become disolved as it provides a service that is not required by society.

And how long does your society give each company a chance to fuction before it is banned, forbidden and shut down against the will of the owner? It is known that lots of small businesses go through hard times at the beginning before they become "known" and they get enough returning customers to become profitable.
I'd suggest two years.

However, you do realise that the scenario put forward earlier is still unworkable?
After two years, the solar flashlight company gets shut down by TPTB authorities, but the next day the same owner starts up a slide rule shop. Everybody wants slide rules, right?

If that becomes banned and a shutdown is imposed, then after two years they open a shop that sells second hand staplers.

And so on, each time operning a shop, or service, or becomes an "artist", that has effectively no customers, and gives them all the spare time they need to play.

i see your point and thank you. i will think on this one for a while.