Judge refuses Muslims woman plea because of Veil.

reply to post by facelift

Well, I would expand your statement to include all religions in the "sucking of [expletive deleted]" as you put it.

But the "Moslem" "issue" in the UK is lost on me. I see a lot of the Moslem types jumping up and down but as far as I can tell, none of their exemptions would affect non-Moslems.

So I fail to see the problem.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
The judge approached this incorrectly.

Of-course her identify can be verified (by a female privately for example), it would just need to be done prior to her "revealing" herself to "everyone".

No, he didn't approach this incorrectly - he approached this in exactly the same manner as he would anyone else covering their face in court. It isn't enough to have a clerk or PC examine the woman, he must be able to verify it himself as he is the one presiding over the case.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
What the judge should have done is approach it from a perspective of fundamental rights, as opposed to a case by case basis, though I dont know what UK law is based on.

UK law is based on common law/case law. Legislation passed down by Government is then interpreted by the courts and case precedent is set. This has nothing to do with fundamental rights but as part of the established procedure over many centuries. While one has the right to face your accuser, the accuser also has the right to face you - how can they be certain they are even dealing with the right person if someone in a tent turns up?

Originally posted by gladtobehere
Constitutionally, I think it would be more complicated, since freedom of religion is supposed to be a protected right in the US.

This has nothing to do with Freedom of religion - it isn't even a requirement as per the Koran.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
But the "Moslem" "issue" in the UK is lost on me. I see a lot of the Moslem types jumping up and down but as far as I can tell, none of their exemptions would affect non-Moslems.

So I fail to see the problem.

Why should anyone be granted exemptions?

Originally posted by gladtobehere
since freedom of religion is supposed to be a protected right in the US.

The veil is NOT religious, it is cultural.

reply to post by gladtobehere


I don't think he approached it incorrectly at all, we have laws and she is lying, I can PROMISE you as a member of a Muslim Family (Although not a Muslim myself) that the Quran does not say anywhere to cover the face, as said its the arms, legs, loose clothing and hair (which I missed out by accident) and all of these are also not in the Quran, its purely a consensus of opinion in the Islamic world as to what modesty means.

Technically the woman can walk around in slacks a blouse and a headscarf or even without the headscarf. So to say its part of the religion is a complete lie, its a personal thing to her rather ancient thinking off shoot.

So by lying to the court I think its perfectly normal for to have her lift the veil, not only to prove identity but to allow her face to be seen when answering questions, often clues are given and in face to face trials often the accused crack under the pressure of lying, instead she can hide behind a mask showing zero emotion.

This is the UK, we must maintain our law system with zero deviants for any one, the law must be seen as such, to make special cases simply erodes the faith in the law to the public.

I too think the judge made a serious error.
I also believe it was intentional.

It seems clear that the woman was told to uncover her head, and refused -- that is not simply an insult to the judge and the rest of the court, it shows contempt for the entire legal system.
Although I share that contempt, if I showed it in court I would expect to be imprisoned.

So why did this judge cave in?
If he was trying to be sensitive to the demands of a religion, he was badly advised, since as has been pointed out, there is no such demand in Islam. He should be educated.

If he was acting out of the fear of rabid fundamentalists, he should be removed.

If he was trying to utilise the situation to foment anti-Muslim feelings, then he seems to have succeeded on both sides of the Atlantic.

I very much doubt if anyone in authority was taken by surprise here, the situation would have been forseen, since it was obviously inevitable, and discussion would have occurred regarding the best response.

This then, is the carefully considered work of the Establishment, it reveals their motives and some of their abuses of power.

Our American friends have a hymn suitable for times like this.

"Because all men are brothers, wherever men may stand,
where chimes the bell of Freedom, there is my native land.
My brother's fears are my fears, yellow, white or brown.
My brother's tears are my tears, the whole wide world around."

Our political masters want us to fight amongst ourselves, and we make it SO BLOODY EASY for them.

Love is God.

mistersmith.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by marg6043

 

If you don't like it then stay in your own darn country.

what about a British Muslim convert who choses to wear the veil?

That is a choice they make but does not affect our legal system (or should not), as for where they class as home well surely that is simple, wherever they find a faith system they find is compatible with their way of life and a law system they will follow.

Britain does not offer that law system and never should, they can remain and follow the law which is their right or seek what they want elsewhere.

reply to post by gladtobehere


But without being rude, that is up to the US, I believe we here in the UK should follow the system we have done for hundreds of years and not amend it for special cases. The only time a law should changes is if its ineffective or damaging or simply outdated, no other reason should be needed.

In my personal opinion I find Obama far too sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood, he's allowed organisations like CAIR etc to form when the FBI already know hey have direct links to the Muslim Brotherhood who in turn demand that whatever country they are in turns in to a Caliphate, this is contrary to the culture of the country.

I find Obama to be nothing more than a Trojan Horse for Radical Islam, most of the rules he makes are staggeringly close to Shariah beliefs, ie the reduction / removal of freedom of speech, the removal of democracy etc etc, tell me that isn't what he is doing these days.

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by gladtobehere
since freedom of religion is supposed to be a protected right in the US.

The veil is NOT religious, it is cultural.

And even then its a very closeted cultural belief, followed only by Wuhabbists and Shariah followers, not part of the Quran at all.

As far as I know the Judge has not caved in but put the case into recess so claims can be examined. Once the claim has been put to say the Muslim council of Great Britain and found baseless the judge should demand the lifting of the veil.

If she refuses then lock her up, you have to remember she is here for intimidating a witness and I suspect this related to a terrorist threat and is a wife of one of them. Although I can't confirm this it seems to be correct in my mind and IF I'm right we have a person who we know already rejects our law by following the Shariah path but also may be part of a terror plan against the UK.

Again, this is my presumption and there is no proof of this bar we know she is in court for intimidating a witness.

The bottom line is we have to stop making special cases for Radical Islam, the requests by these people are contrary to their religion and purely done to get special treatment. Muslim only swimming nights are a joke, the same can be achieved by Women's only nights which are currently offered but as seen the notion is to have a non integrated special right for them.

Ordinary Muslims do NOT do this and should be applauded for it.