Study: Welfare pays more than minimum wage in most states

Originally posted by Metallicus


It may be okay for McDonald's to pay folks double the going rate because they are a huge corporation with the ability to lobby the lawmakers. What do you do if you are Mom and Pops burgers? They simply don't have the economies of scale to compete with Big Government and Big Business.

I still don't know how to solve the problem, but right now the playing field is unfair.

edit on 2013/8/21 by Metallicus because: (no reason given)

I think the problem is big business. We needed more Mom and Pop's burgers, not more burger chains. A lot of the big corporations are able to use shady tactics like bribing politicians, Chinese slave factories, etc. and this is what brought us into our current situation, which is entirely unstable.

The reason that McDondald's has to pay double wages to its employees is because Americans that would otherwise have stable jobs as business owners, or factory workers, and sadly I don't know of more examples because I have not seen them - these Americans are working at McDonalds. And the wages have to be increased or else there would be civil unrest.

And if you think about it, it is McDonald's own fault, and big chains own faults, that this happened, so it only makes sense that they are paying the money out of their pockets.

Let's take Wal Mart, for example. The guy that is selling guns and camping supplies? Maybe he would have been inspired to make his own business if Wal Mart wasn't in town. The grocery section has enough groceries in it to make for 5-10 small businesses, including localized farms and the like, and canneries, whatever.

But guess what? Those groceries were probably canned overseas, the guy running the camping section is probably getting paid minimum wage, see?

Originally posted by Thorneblood
reply to post by neo96

 

Forgive me if am wrong here, but are you saying we should vilify the poor?

I really wish people would understand what I am saying.

Thought it was made rather clear.

People need to stop vilifying BUSINESS because that dogma creates people on welfare.

Government needs to get the hell off the back of PEOPLE and BUSINESS that creates JOBS not taxing,and regulating them to the poverty state.

reply to post by neo96


Big corporations are proven to act like psychopaths. They are villains. It's more small businesses that we need. Although there is one thing I should note -

People making $200,000 a year are the ones who go out and spend that money and create jobs, they are not villains. But you have those people making $500 million plus or whatever when they are simply let go, that's a huge difference there.

reply to post by neo96


You would be absolutely correct Neo, if this was the America of old....where the free market could run it's course unmolested.

But as you know all too well, we live in a fascist state where the "business'" now own and run the government. The free market no longer exists and the welfare of the people is meaningless to those that only wish to profit.

Admit it Neo...the free market is gone. Now we have to fight for each other....not for them.

reply to post by neo96


People probably would stop vilifying Businesses if they weren't doing such a damn good job of making themselves come across as villains. Which is precisely why the government creates regulations in the first place as the alternative would likely be worse then the current situation.

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by BritofTexas

 

Nope free market dictates pay as the massive regulation state and this living wage bullsnip facilitates the so called need for 'welfare'.

In this "free market" utopia of yours, should business be able to hire whoever from wherever they choose?

Should they be able to hire illegal immigrants for $1 an hour?

Or do you really believe in a regulated market......Just with your own regulations.

Well the welfare state is no utopia now is it ?

Want to talk about poor wages ?

Fine let's talk about Americans being so self obsessed with their wants they created slave labor over in China because they think they are so damn special.

The nerve to cry about illegals?

Nothing makes them come here

Really not paying attention to the current state of the union are we ?

Where it is cheaper to have a product made 10,000 miles away and shipped here, than it is to have the same thing made 1 mile away from a consumer.

That vulgar stupidity is what created the need for the welfare state, and people are piling on to it going 'yes more please'.

Free market is a free market that is the absence of government interventionism where diversity thrives, where competition is king. Where thousands of people, and business's are competing against each other thus delivering better products, and higher pay, and cheaper products.

Only fascist's believe in the regulation state, and we have seen what an EPIC failure that is.

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by neo96

 

Big corporations are proven to act like psychopaths. They are villains. It's more small businesses that we need. Although there is one thing I should note -

People making $200,000 a year are the ones who go out and spend that money and create jobs, they are not villains. But you have those people making $500 million plus or whatever when they are simply let go, that's a huge difference there.

edit on 21-8-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

Sorry try again SMALL business is the largest employer's in this country that is the small mom and pops next door neighbors who are being strangled because of certain peoples obsession with corporate vilification.

The only narcissistic sociopaths I see are those who appear to have nothing but contempt for their fellow man buy pushing outright demagoguery of business.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by neo96

 

You would be absolutely correct Neo, if this was the America of old....where the free market could run it's course unmolested.

But as you know all too well, we live in a fascist state where the "business'" now own and run the government. The free market no longer exists and the welfare of the people is meaningless to those that only wish to profit.

Admit it Neo...the free market is gone. Now we have to fight for each other....not for them.

Free market is gone because fascists just want to seem to control it, and legislate wealth and success.

money and things, fiat currency and corporate products, vilifying the very thing they depend on for their existence.

Big bad evil corporations Give me money, and Give them Iphones, etc.

Hmmn. This is a difficult topic, really.

I agree with the poster who pointed out that it's not that we should be either trying to prevent or scale back welfare or make jobs match welfare (that is hardly something to aspire to), but trying to figure out why a full time job of any kind can't even meet the minimums.

Back in mid-southern coastal California where I grew up, when I was in college I had two full time jobs, plus school, and eventually had to leave school because exhaustion was killing me. Most of my friends solved this the predictable way: they moved in with a boyfriend because nobody could afford to live alone even in studio apts., eventually ended up pregnant not much intentionally (don't get me started on that topic), and eventually after a failed stressed out exhausted impoverished life and relationship were single mothers on welfare or working minimum wage or sometimes a combination of both.

The root of this was mostly that the economy (and rent) were so poor that even working full time plus more just wasn't enough for anybody to make it. Now, that was there and then; the little 3 bdrm house with postage-stamp back/front yard (tract housing) I lived in during high school was for sale for something like 320,000$ at one point later (maybe late 1980s early 90s), as an example of the greedy mess California has consistently made of real estate and everything else actually (I currently live in NE Oklahoma, and I have a house that is the same or better here, for which my dad paid $39K in 2000), but this seems to be becoming the norm across the nation, now.

In the town I live in (very near Joplin, which is now on the national map thanks to weather), the local city government in the business areas regularly tries to keep out new business because it's minimum wage related, and we are already -- thanks to Super Walmart wiping out all but one (of previously six) grocery stores and many other small stores for everything else you can imagine -- filled with minimum wage jobs that nobody wants.

Yes, I said nobody wants them. They have a helluva time finding sufficient applicants to work minimum wage here and if it weren't for desperate teens and poverty stricken elderly people the business would be doomed.

And I thought at first that was outrageous, because there is HUD funded housing, leading me to think, how is it people are getting housing assistance yet there are jobs not being taken? --

But then I remembered when I lived in Hartford CT back in 1985... I think it was... they offered like 7 bucks an hour at a couple of the fast food places there and still had a horrible time finding anybody to take the jobs. The population in the area where I lived was overwhelmingly Puerto Rican, and I'm a little hazy on the details but it's something like they have benefits because their country is a 'property of' the USA. (? They must have a militarily useful base location.) Anyway the bottom line said my local friends, one of whom was a manager at a fast food place with that offer, was that so many of them didn't need jobs due to other sources of support, and since that was the dominant population in the area, they just kept raising the offer, still to no avail. (Note that this couldn't have been true entirely, since I worked with and certainly encountered on the bus system -- in drivers who would not deign to speak to me because I didn't speak PR, mostly, LOL -- plenty of people from that country who were working hard for a living.)

Anyway the point I am making here has nothing to do with PR or its localized persons, only with the fact that this issue of minimum wage not being able to tempt people to work over government benefits -- and even way MORE than minimum wage sometimes -- is clearly not something which is novel or new, if it was even an issue in some areas way back then.

Originally posted by neo96
Well the welfare state is no utopia now is it ?

For us? No.
For Corporations? Yes.

Want to talk about poor wages ?
Fine let's talk about Americans being so self obsessed with their wants they created slave labor over in China because they think they are so damn special.

Nope. Corporations moved production off shore to increase profits.

The nerve to cry about illegals?
Nothing makes them come here

Earning a pittance from employers who don't ask questions is why they come here.

Really not paying attention to the current state of the union are we ?
Where it is cheaper to have a product made 10,000 miles away and shipped here, than it is to have the same thing made 1 mile away from a consumer.

Are you suggesting that employees here should be paid the same as the ones in China? That's your idea of a "free Market" is it?

That vulgar stupidity is what created the need for the welfare state, and people are piling on to it going 'yes more please'.

Corporations run wild is what has created the need for more Welfare.

Free market is a free market that is the absence of government interventionism where diversity thrives, where competition is king. Where thousands of people, and business's are competing against each other thus delivering better products, and higher pay, and cheaper products.

Free market means offshore manufacturing. low wages, lead paint on baby toys.........

Only fascist's believe in the regulation state, and we have seen what an EPIC failure that is.

Really?

reply to post by darkbake





Now that's something I could never understand buying bottled water? It's almost

free taken directly from the tap.

And two corporate brand leaders 'Mars' and 'Coco cola' would e bankrupt if they relied on

my family and their families, Just two mega money making items we never or only very

occasionally purchase.

reply to post by neo96


So we should deify business instead?

We should forsake the government and not seek its assistance but instead rely on the generosity of business to take care of its employees?

Isn't the point of all small business to become big businesses?

Is that not the reason most people dream of starting a business is so that one day it might become a big enough business that they can leave it to their many employees to run while they retire on the profits?

And if said small business does become big business and continues to pay its employees a low wage as a means of ensuring its own profit and survival against big businesses then it is somehow the employees fault for working for said business in the first place?

Or is it the consumers fault for wanting the product said business produces and charges a hefty price for, even though said business is paying the employees a miserable wage to produce said product while the business owners and investors continue profiting from said product?

reply to post by BritofTexas

For us? No. For Corporations? Yes.

What part of this is someone missing ?

Small business are corporations, that are Franchise operators of them big evil corporations.

Every time you go after them people are cutting their own throats.

Nope. Corporations moved production off shore to increase profits.

They moved off shore to stay in business, and I don't blame a single one.

Earning a pittance from employers who don't ask questions is why they come here.

So the US government doesn't either..

Are you suggesting that employees here should be paid the same as the ones in China? That's your idea of a "free Market" is it?

What I have constantly said is people should get paid for the work they do not what they think they are worth.

Corporations run wild is what has created the need for more Welfare.

Nope more like the welfare pushers have run wild

Free market means offshore manufacturing. low wages, lead paint on baby toys.....

Business's don't care where they do business, and that was just dogma.

Have anything of substance other than hyperbole and dogma ?


Yeah really FASCIST.

reply to post by Thorneblood

So we should deify business instead?

Well I sure don't deify my fellow man.

We should forsake the government and not seek its assistance but instead rely on the generosity of business to take care of its employees?

I forsaken government long time ago why anyone deifies them is beyond insane.

sn't the point of all small business to become big businesses?

Depends on who creates them as people have different goals.

Is that not the reason most people dream of starting a business is so that one day it might become a big enough business that they can leave it to their many employees to run while they retire on the profits?

And if said small business does become big business and continues to pay its employees a low wage as a means of ensuring its own profit and survival against big businesses then it is somehow the employees fault for working for said business in the first place?

Or is it the consumers fault for wanting the product said business produces and charges a hefty price for, even though said business is paying the employees a miserable wage to produce said product while the business owners and investors continue profiting from said product?

Not even going to bother always the endless vicitmization complex on here, vilify business no matter what, they are always out to screw people over,

Hell let's keep them evil corporations in chains since that is what so many want.

Hell why even argue no matter what always the same thing.

Business is evil.

reply to post by neo96

Source

The iPhone is the most profitable, and ultimately the most popular, product in Apple's portfolio, based on revenue and sales. Even with a sales shortfall, Apple still sold an impressive 26 million iPhones in the third quarter. Research firm IHS has come up with the cost of manufacturing the iPhone 5, and, unsurprisingly, Apple's estimated margins are astounding.

The cost of the new iPhone 5 sets Apple back between $207 and $238, according to IHS, depending on whether the model is the 16 GB, the 32 GB, or the 64 GB version. At $649 for the 16 GB model, Apple is generating $442 per phone in profits, excluding outside expenses. While Apple's spend on marketing, advertising, employees, and other expenses, is unknown (Apple doesn't break down its cost of sales), the tech giant's could be generating margins of at least 68% on the iPhone 5.

So by your estimation of people being paid for the work they do can you please justify why apple pays the people making the Iphone 5 (since you mentioned it) so very little and treating them like slaves?

Thats good business to you?

reply to post by Metallicus


There was a time when I would say this is madness, but given that the governments of most badly run economies are to blame for closing businesses with too high demands, hence staff with no job and that is just a simple example, but in any case it changes the rules and we play a different game now. so if your state or government is paying more for you to stay at home and not go to work. then it's a no brainer..... find a seat and put the game on... it's family hour..

back in the 90's, Reader's Digest came out with a story that stated that a family of four, with no income was given what amounted to the income of someone earning $10/hr.

I still think that it's the primary reason why the cost of housing, medical care, child care, ect is so high.. there is no reason, no motivation, to keep the cost of living even closely tied to the wages that people earn.. If they don't make enough to live on and get denied benefits, well, they can just separate, and wife and kiddies will live better than they with dad around in many cases... And dad?? Well dad can just keep working, have the money taken out of his check, have it get lost, whatever, as long as it's added to the pool, or maybe black ops in the cases where it's "lost" Or maybe he will be able to make an arrangement with an employer and have a portion of his check hidden from the gov't's watchful eyes.

If the amount of the real value of the handouts for the average family size were aligned more closely to the wages of those who we could assume would be parents, then I believe things would be different, either the businesses would have to raise the wages, or they would have to reduce the costs

Neo, isn't this the same study you already did a thread about?

reply to post by Thorneblood


cost of living in Australia is upper 30%-45% higher than the us depending on what commodities we are talking about so they pay more numbers wise but it looks like it is along the same lines as far as pay rates in the U.S. Then the conversation shifts to corporate tax rates and such. So, yeah it appears they make more but in reality they do not.

reply to post by neo96


gonna tell ya a story

My husband used to be a truck driver On day he made a delivery to a company in NY that produced apple juice. Now I've got to tell ya something, back then there were apple orchards all over our area of NY! Well, we was delivering apply juice concentrate to this plant. He asked the guy taking the delivery of the concentrate why on earth they were having concentrate shipped from overseas when there were so many apples within 50 miles of the place Well,, this was the answer he was given.. The gov't was giving them a tax break some part of the product that were making was being shipped in from overseas. So, well, even though there were plenty of apples for the taking, the company decided to take the tax break and have them shipped in from halfway around the world!!

Most of the workers on the orchards and farms back then were migrants or kids, they weren't making that much, neither were the people working in the company!! I highly doubt if it was really cheaper for this company to ship in the concentrate than it would have been to buy it from the local producers, unless of course, you figure in that nice tax break from the gov't

Instead of paying to have it shipped a short distance from the producers, it was being shipped halfway around the world! And when you figure in the real cost to the US economy, there is no way it was cheaper!
1 We are america, we don't let people starve! The jobs left, but the people still ate, they still had roofs over their head, a warm bed, ect. Only instead of the money coming from their employer, it was not going through several different gov't agencies, with an army of employees that had to be paid for the job they were doing, all compliments of the US Taxpayer!! Of which, the business sector is a part of also. What do you think is cheaper, giving a person $10 dollars yourself, or having the gov't set up a system to take that ten from you and give it to that person for you??
2 How much fuel was burned to transport this crap? Here we are in a time where the gov't wants to tax us for our carbon emmissions, well just how much carbon was needlessly thrown into the air to get the crap here??
3 And this is the most damaging one!! The apple orchards are now only a shadow of what they once were! Just like the textile industry, and so many other industries!! They are not gonna be easily resurrected!

All in all, I'd say that it was a very costly mistake!