My Trip To Disneyland (August 2013)

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Since you want to argue semantics : Probability. Happy?

It's clarity, not semantics. You were conflating two words as synonyms which aren't synonymous: "possibility" and "likelihood". You're now adding a third which IS a synonym for likelihood: "Probability". However in the post you replied to, I asked

"If the latter, I should like to know where you get your evidence?". That extends to your use of the word "probability" since you can not rule out the "likelihood that there are those who join Freemasonry for their own nefarious purposes".

You're asserting that "nefarious purposes" are likely and/or probable on the part of Freemasons and I'd like to know the origin of your certainty? If it's unsupported opinion, be honest and feel free to admit as much.

Fitz

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

You're asserting that "nefarious purposes" are likely and/or probable on the part of Freemasons

No, I am not. I do not judge the group as a whole on the actions of a few bad apples. I realize that true Freemasons have nothing to do with this trash, so please, once again do not attempt to lump me in with all of the anti-masons, that come on this board. I am not anti-masonry, in fact, I am very pro-masonry. I believe that a golden age would be possible on Earth like there once was in the past if humanity as a whole or collective group began to practice what you preach. After all, it is a remnant of the very ancient spirituality that once existed during our last golden age, is it not?

I was stating that it is my belief and conviction that there are some of those 'bad apples' who join Freemasonry for bad intentions, symbolism is a very powerful thing, and it's no wonder that a lot of people that we could consider being 'evil' use this same symbolism.

Does this mean they are 'high-level masons' or that they own them? No, it just means they are imposters who are attempting to hi-jack things that they do not own or control.

Symbols belong to the GAOTU; not man. Man may use these symbols as he intended, but to attempt to control people through their sub-conscious attraction to them is wrong, and is a sin against nature, and therefore God.

These bad apples by no means reflect Freemasonry. Give them any other label of distinction you will besides being Masons if it helps you to distinguish who I am referring to.

I think very highly of masonry, which is why I have petitioned a lodge to be initiated into the craft. I may be a 'profane' at the moment, but I have wished to change that, and until I am initiated I can not be faulted for delving into this on my own, because that is the only teacher I have in these vast mysteries at the moment.

So in conclusion to that, go easy on me when you feel that my conclusions or assertions are wrong, about certain aspects of masonry; I didn't have a teacher to hold my hand through it. I've been learning on my own through study of Masonry and other secret societies, mystery schools, or as masonry now likes to put it 'societies with secrets'...

I bid you adieu and namaste.

Originally posted by Saurus
Freemasonry is not Christian.

Many (possibly most) Masons aren't either.

If you believe that, then you should probably look up their history, mate. And the 18th order of freemasonry is a direct reference to Jesus's sacrifice.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

You're asserting that "nefarious purposes" are likely and/or probable on the part of Freemasons

No, I am not. I do not judge the group as a whole on the actions of a few bad apples.

Fine. You've clarified what you meant and that your sentiment was closer to "possibility" as opposed to "likelihood" and "probability" which you also used and which made your post confusing on that level. I personally would categorise it as a slight possibility but that starts moving things towards a 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin'-type of argument.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
I realize that true Freemasons have nothing to do with this trash, so please, once again do not attempt to lump me in with all of the anti-masons, that come on this board.

That wasn't my intent per se but absent clarification and given the predilection on ATS for posters to make unsupported and/or unsupportable anti-Masonic assertions, it's hard to know who's whom in that regard.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
I am not anti-masonry, in fact, I am very pro-masonry. I believe that a golden age would be possible on Earth like there once was in the past if humanity as a whole or collective group began to practice what you preach. After all, it is a remnant of the very ancient spirituality that once existed during our last golden age, is it not?

I was stating that it is my belief and conviction that there are some of those 'bad apples' who join Freemasonry for bad intentions, symbolism is a very powerful thing, and it's no wonder that a lot of people that we could consider being 'evil' use this same symbolism.

Not right out of the realm of possibility though realistically, we're getting into the realm of lightning-bolt-strike; Masonry is not the sort of fraternity that generally attracts the psychopathic (the sentiments of the more ardent anti-Masons notwithstanding). Antagonistic non-Masons prefer to believe the worst about humanity and will believe that the exceptions prove the rule; for that there is nothing that anyone can do. Their preference will not be trumped by fact and were they to happen upon Jesus Christ, I'm sure they'd have him pegged as a disruptive influence with no appreciation of day-to-day reality.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
Does this mean they are 'high-level masons' or that they own them? No, it just means they are imposters who are attempting to hi-jack things that they do not own or control.

However the structure of Freemasonry isn't one that allows for that kind of 'hi-jacking'. At absolute most, one province's or state's Grand Lodge could theoretically be hijacked but it would be isolated by other Grand Lodges in terms of recognising its members as Masons and there's no telling what the various lodges and districts would do to subvert the attempted control of this hijacked Grand Lodge.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
I think very highly of masonry, which is why I have petitioned a lodge to be initiated into the craft. I may be a 'profane' at the moment, but I have wished to change that, and until I am initiated I can not be faulted for delving into this on my own, because that is the only teacher I have in these vast mysteries at the moment.

You're free to research all you like but at least at this stage don't presume that your researches are correct. As for the use of the word "profane", I've only ever run across it being used by non-Masons to express what they think Masons think of non-Masons. I've yet to meet a Mason use this or any other word as a put-down to non-Masons and I would suggest you drop it from your lexicon as I think it colours your own perceptions.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
So in conclusion to that, go easy on me when you feel that my conclusions or assertions are wrong, about certain aspects of masonry; I didn't have a teacher to hold my hand through it. I've been learning on my own through study of Masonry and other secret societies, mystery schools, or as masonry now likes to put it 'societies with secrets'...

I bid you adieu and namaste.

As I said, your conclusions aren't grounded in any kind of experience as yet and I would recommend you not get too attached to perceived 'truth'. It's far more difficult to unlearn an incorrect perception than to show some patience and only have to learn a lesson once.

Fitz

Originally posted by swanne

Originally posted by Saurus
Freemasonry is not Christian.

Many (possibly most) Masons aren't either.

If you believe that, then you should probably look up their history, mate. And the 18th order of freemasonry is a direct reference to Jesus's sacrifice.

Aah yes, that... but the 18th order of Freemasonry? Don't you mean the 18th Degree?

Of course, the 18th Degree belongs to the Rose Croix, or Scottish Rite, which is a Christian Order affiliated to Freemasonry - often mistaken by non-Masons to be part of Freemasonry's itself - especially to those who learn about "Freemasonry" through the internet.

A few Masons in my Lodge do belong to that Order too, but most of us, including myself, aren't allowed to join - because we are not Christian!

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas

I think very highly of masonry, which is why I have petitioned a lodge to be initiated into the craft.

Hell, it's about time!

reply to post by Saurus


Exactly. The 18th degree is a lesson on self-less-ness. The pelican is the symbol of Christ, because the legend says a pelican will sacrifice her own blood to feed her young, just like Christ scarified his blood to save mankind. I am not saying all masons are christians, I am just pointing out that alot of christian ideas do feature at the key points of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by swanne
reply to post by Saurus

 

Exactly. The 18th degree is a lesson on self-less-ness. The pelican is the symbol of Christ, because the legend says a pelican will sacrifice her own blood to feed her young, just like Christ scarified his blood to save mankind. I am not saying all masons are christians, I am just pointing out that alot of christian ideas do feature at the key points of Freemasonry.

It is also important to realize that all Christian references are, in general, limited to the three Christian Orders affiliated to Masonry, being the Rose Croix (or Scottish Rite), the Red Cross of Constantine, and the Knights Templar. These are not part of Freemasonry proper, and are not governed by any Masonic Grand Lodge, and in most jurisdictions (with the notable exception of some jurisdictions in the USA), membership is limited to Christians alone.

Outside of these three affiliated Christian Orders, and in Freemasonry proper, you will not find many Christian references.

reply to post by Saurus


Naturally. So we agree after all. I am also aware that freemasonry has its own legend about the Solomon temple and all that. And many masons friends did told me about alot of non-christian movements within the society. Wiccan is very popular, also.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

However the structure of Freemasonry isn't one that allows for that kind of 'hi-jacking'. At absolute most, one province's or state's Grand Lodge could theoretically be hijacked but it would be isolated by other Grand Lodges in terms of recognising its members as Masons and there's no telling what the various lodges and districts would do to subvert the attempted control of this hijacked Grand Lodge.

I was not referring to the power structure of Freemasonry; I was referring to the symbols used by the Masons, which anti-masons think that they see everywhere, and ergo must mean that Masons are responsible. They aren't; just a bunch of imposters attempting to hijack symbols that do not belong to them.

I am very aware that the power structure of Freemasonry does not allow for any such consolidation of power to befall one particularly powerful person.

This is an excerpt from JSM Ward's, "The Entered Apprentice Handbook".

The next series of questions indicates that Man has a seven-fold nature.
The Ancient Egyptians held this view , and it is endorsed in Masonry by the fact that it
takes seven to make a perfect lodge.

There is also, no doubt, an astrological reference to
the seven planets and a connection with stellar worship, but as our system is mainly solar,
it is almost impossible to give a logical planetary interpretation to the seven who form a
lodge, or to the seven officers. In short, the planetary symbolism has become disorganized
by the stress laid on the solar aspect of the three principal officers who rule a lodge.
Moreover, the predominance of the solar aspect has emphasized the triune nature of man,
and symbolizes it in these officers.

Thus it will be seen that too much stress must not be laid on the planets, as represented by
the seven officers, and a passing reference to the fact that it is still remembered in the
number seven is all that can be logically maintained

In the Aryan religion of Hinduism; there are 7 chakras which are attuned to the seven septenaries, or planets of the ancients.

Then you also have the power structure of three's which once again does not allow for any one man to consolidate ultimate power.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
I was not referring to the power structure of Freemasonry; I was referring to the symbols used by the Masons, which anti-masons think that they see everywhere, and ergo must mean that Masons are responsible. They aren't; just a bunch of imposters attempting to hijack symbols that do not belong to them.

And therein lies the crux: Regular Freemasonry does not have overruling control on the symbols most associated with it and ergo, as you say, "imposters" can hijack them. Reasonable people will understand when the hijacking is explained to them but in the minds of the unreasonable, there's no possibility a hijacking could take place and they find it more satisfying to believe the worst about a group they really don't know anything about.

You can lead a horse to water....

Fitz

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


And I agree. But push come to shove, you know those symbols don't belong to those imposters just as well as I do. They are to be used in accordance with the will of the divine; not to sub-consciously manipulate those who are unaware.

I'm glad that we could agree on that one little point. Because that's partially what my whole argument with A.M. was about. I wasn't trying to implicate true Masonry in the argument; only imposters who hijack things to make it seem like they are connected. Regardless, I think my little stint in this thread is finished.

r666evolution
reply to post by benrl

 

Might be looking too far, but possible future legalization reference?

hahaha! that's awesome! sorry, i just had to quote this again. honestly. brilliant. i like your mind