Views From a Former Christian

Well said,2X Helix. I gave up my old beliefs this year, too. I'd been a Christian since I was 6 years old. Kind of a funny story about that: my Dad was a former Deacon in the Southern Baptists, and he was concerned that I get the "Word" as soon as possible, so he opened the Bible to the Gospels and told me to read it. However, he didn't have his glasses on at that moment, and instead of opening the book to John, he opened it to Job. I duly read it, not really understanding it. You should have seen the "oh,crap" look on his face when I brought the book to him with my questions as to why Job was being punished.

I think this why I've always had questions about Christianity. I finally quit forever in April of this year. Christianity has no answers for me. I'm looking at the spirit in my own ways now. I can't call myself Atheist, but to me the "God" of the Bible is no more real than "Thor" or "Apollo".

Good Luck on your searches!

Originally posted by TruthLover557
reply to post by 2x Helix

 

I can relate to your post in a major way. While I know we each have our own unique story, what you wrote sounds a lot like something I would have written when I was around 20. I'm 28 now. I grew up in a similar environment, went to church and educated entirely in a Christian private school. I accepted the Lord into my life as a child and was baptized at age 9 in the Jordan River. By 17, I was literally going to the bathroom and crying during Bible classes. I was frustrated because my mind was flooded with thoughts like the thoughts you've expressed in your op. I was having an extremely hard time coming to terms with what I had always believed, the general worldview held by my Christian peers and family. And it was painful. When I was 20, I vividly remember telling my mom I was not a Christian.By 21, I was trying to let go of God when I realized he wouldn't let go of me.

I basically told God I wanted to know him, understand his word and believe in his love and be known by him. I don't know how to explain it, but the Holy Spirit came to me. I started reading the Bible and it was as if I was reading it for the first time. Understanding came to me.

You are free to seek truth far and wide. Do not allow others, family included, tell you who God is

Why can’t the forgiveness demonstrated in the NT be applied from the very beginning of the OT? Why would Jesus ever say “I never knew you” to any soul? Why am I told to stop bringing up God’s laws and actions in the OT and just focus on his son? I respond the latter with, “If the tree is rotten, why would I consume its fruit?”

Israel is meant to be a light unto the Gentiles. The Jews and Israel exist to show that God's word is true, as spoken by the prophets, so it will be.

And so, for not making a commitment, for not surrendering my soul, for not having a full understanding of the spiritual realm and choosing to remain being careful about this individual book and its authors, according to this same book, I am condemned to be tortured for all eternity. Not wiped out of existence, flesh mutilated and charred forever and ever and ever.

You are free to seek truth far and wide. Do not allow others, family included, tell you who God is or what is spiritually required of you.

"My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
He holds success in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
Then you will understand what is right and just
and fair—every good path.
For wisdom will enter your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.
Discretion will protect you,
and understanding will guard you." Proverbs 2

Why can’t we simply love from the heart rather than adhere to the rules and stipulations of love according these ‘holy’ texts, whose followers for ongoing millennia continue to fight over whose interpretation is right?

God's love does not expire upon death. His love endures forever. And no one, absolutely no one, has any business saying what is the "right" interpretation of the Bible.

This is what it says:

"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2

All the best to you.

As a firm believer in Christ, I agree with every single word you have stated. God IS the definition of love and that Agape love will last for eternity. If you want to understand the Word of God, simply pray and ask Him to reveal what the Scripture is saying that you may be reading.

I've got a question that I've been wondering about. How can a soul without a body and therefore no pain receptors feel the pain of hell? Is hell hotter than the hottest stars in the universe with surface temperatures at 150,000 K? Also if so, shouldn't it be a lake of plasma instead of fire? What is a lake of fire anyways?

Originally posted by Krazysh0t
I've got a question that I've been wondering about. How can a soul without a body and therefore no pain receptors feel the pain of hell? Is hell hotter than the hottest stars in the universe with surface temperatures at 150,000 K? Also if so, shouldn't it be a lake of plasma instead of fire? What is a lake of fire anyways?

You are correct it makes no sense.

First the doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell is not in the scriptures.It is a religious extrapolation.Hell was translated from 4 words
Old Testament
from the Hebrew sheol which means the grave the realm of the dead

new Testament
Hades.means the same as sheol the grave, the realm of the dead, the realm of imperception
Gehenna-means Valley of the Son of Hinnom where the believers of Moloch,Baal, and Canaanites gods sacrificed in a fire.It was also known as the burning trash dump outside of Jerusalem.
Tartarus-the deep abyss in Greek Mythology(used only once by Peter)

Only Peter and Yahoshua spoke those words.Paul,John or James didn't teach it at all.

Yahoshua was the main speaker and it was twisted into the doctrines of hell .The irony being the name Yahoshua means savior...and the real point being Yahoshua is not condemning ANYONE to hell because it doesn't exist.Only the grave the realm of the dead and imperception.

Then insult upon injury is that the Lake of Fire is hell.The book of Revelation is the only place of all scriptures to say anything of it.It is definitely NOT hell (for the above reasons).All of Revelation is a metaphor.In context it is Gods judgement of correction of cleansing ... not punishment.It is not a literal fire in the least as you pointed out it is impossible and infinitely perverted.

reply to post by 2x Helix

Originally posted by 2x Helix
I grew up a strong believer understanding that the Bible was THE truth, Jesus was my savior, and God was eternal love
...........................
Why can’t we simply love from the heart rather than adhere to the rules and stipulations of love according these ‘holy’ texts, whose followers for ongoing millennia continue to fight over whose interpretation is right? Hurting others hurts us all

wow that is a lotta baggage.Hope you bought a round trip ticket!

The good news is the wide path of religion all leads to the gate of destruction.The bad news is religion is not so easily destroyed.It is like a bad habit when you kick one it usually just leads to more bad habits.The reality is ALL religion must die.Even the stuff called "spiritual" is just a patchouli perfumed name for religion.

However the good news overrides all the bad.This part only seems bad but is infinitely good.You can't destroy religion at all.You can quit the church and divorce the doctrines but they are nested deep inside and manifest themselves in more deeper religion.The Good Good news is only God can kill it...and kill it he will!

It has nothing to do with studying more books or ascending, knowing your higher self or meditating blah blah blah...or anything that is propagated as "spiritual.The fact is it is ALL being done for you.. the only way it can be done.While you are asleep in a deep coma. under heavy anesthesia.A smart patient shouldn't want to wake up in the middle of the operation and fortunately in fact ..you can't.It is in one sense more like a matrix.Where you believe you are awake
and you are the master of your own reality and destiny.Nothing could be further from the Truth.That is just more religion..belief .

Mans existence is mired in unreality.They cannot perceive the Truth unless the Truth reveals itself to them.Then they are "being" woke up..slowly.No one can wake themselves up because it is a process not an event.The reality will be that were are not God as so many believe and ironically don't know it!!Everyone who believes they have free will are deceived.That is at the core of all religion..separating from the creator the CAUSE of everything.Fortunately it is only a belief..a faith.It doesn't matter if someone believe they have free will when they don't.
And THAT is the wide path of religion EVERYONE must go down that eventually leads to the gate of destruction.It's something we would never devise of ourselves nor could accomplish it.It is all done inside the matrix of the valley of the SHADOW of death...hades..the realm of imperception.

Yes in a very real way mankind is all dead.The physical death is just part of that death.It does not produce magic and POOF you are in heaven or hades...neither which are places...they are realms.They are parts of the wide path that leads to the wide gate of destruction which leads to the Narrow path which leads to the narrow gate which opens up into the FIELD where everything came from and is.Some call it eternity(it isn't it is beyond the restraints of time) some call it infinite or God....

In one sense it is all very simple.There is a God and you aren't God.God is 100% in control of everything down to the most minute detail.It can be no other way.The plan is all going accordingly.You can resist in futility and deep slumber or God can start waking you up.All 100% caused by God so there is nothing to worry about.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.That is impossible.Believing any of this will not change anyone...only knowing will and only God can cause that.My suggestion is relax and enjoy this very short trip.

Originally posted by 2x Helix
(cont...) Others have said that I must be sad and angry because they claim I never truly knew God’s love or because I did it all wrong for my first 20 years as a Christian. I am broken because I am told by friends and family that these thoughts are wrong, that I am missing the point, to stop asking so many questions and just have faith, and that no matter what I present to them, I will never convince them about my perspective. I know from my past conviction about Christianity to never again say “I have the truth” no matter how strong I may feel it. There is only information and experience. I will never be able to disprove a single religion, but I am more that capable of using deductive reasoning. That’s 3.85 billion (55% world population) who believe in the god of Abraham and believe I will burn forever. The idea of suicide occasionally arose from the feeling of alienation from the world (most being self-imposed) as I desired to just stop questioning see what’s on the other side, right here and now. But I remember to tell myself “endure, endure, endure” and experience this current existence.

I also feel that religion is artificially perpetuated and used politically to gain and retain power. Divide and conquer is one of the oldest forms of control. So is it not possible for history’s rulers and the rich and powerful to manipulate facts and history to maintain control? Why is it that I get so frustrated when I see corruption, ignorance and just plain stupidity in the world? Because I am genuinely concerned and passionate about not having the world burn by giving away my power and will to the belief that “it’s part of His plan or it’s in His hands”. I am not the one who disassociates from this world believing that Satan is god of this earth (2 Corinthians 4:4), that the tribulation will wipe out the bad stuff and renew everything (Revelation 21) or believing that I am not of this world (John 15:19).

It is not that I continue to ask these questions about God, I have been over with Christianity for years (unless a solid point can be made). Instead I ask the world, "Why do you continue to bow your knees and offer your souls to this demon who calls himself God and claims to be your creator?" The whole world is struggling for answers and solutions but the majority do not like to have their safety blankets tugged on and continue to await a savior.

We simply need each other and the only thing we have power over is the here and now.

Or do I just think too much?

edit on 19-8-2013 by 2x Helix because: (no reason given)

Yep, you are thinking way too much. Stop spreading apostasy. Anyone can throw together a new ideology or ideas however the problem with this is disrespect for the one true creator.

Man's ego is dangerous.

I thoroughly enjoyed your OP. I relate immensely to what you have written. I am also a former Christian. Like I said, I relate to all of what you posted, but wanted to mention a specific thing. You said how the Christians in your life say you must have not given yourself completely to the lord and you never fully had faith. I've been told that sort of thing also. What an insult! I devoted myself wholeheartedly for at least 11 years to this faith.

I feel so much better, freer, and genuinely happy now. Before, everything was dependent on God and his grace. I see Christians now that can be so annoying and so "in your face" with the witnessing. I still carry some shame that I used to do that to my loved ones.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I'm sure many Christians will come and post that you are wrong and deceived by Satan. :rolleyes:

TextI've got a question that I've been wondering about. How can a soul without a body and therefore no pain receptors feel the pain of hell? Is hell hotter than the hottest stars in the universe with surface temperatures at 150,000 K? Also if so, shouldn't it be a lake of plasma instead of fire? What is a lake of fire anyways?

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Moses describes a soul as a terrestrial body and the soul does not enter into hell. (Gen. 2:7) --
Hell is a compartment in the realm of Sheol. No proof of course. Just theory.

The soul is the body which ceases to function and returns to the earth's components. The spirit is the true essence of the entity and continues to exist with it's memory and five senses. As the body dies, the spirit is given a spiritual body (1st Corinthians 15:44) --

The spirit while in either body feels the pain which is inflicted on it. The difference is the substance has changed. As you die your terrestrial substance is forever gone and you then have a spiritual substance. Even though hell is hot with intense fire and brimstone and emits great heat and discomfort the spirit is not burned.

The spirit which is in hell will eventually be cast into the lake of fire as hell and death are then destroyed. As hell is cast into the lake of fire and all of those who are in hell are automatically destroyed, it is believed by some that the consciousness of those spirits are destroyed while the worm (image) is eternally shown burning in the ethereal fire which never consumes. The image of the terrestrial body is the same as the image of the spiritual body even though the substance will change. This lake of fire is called the second death which is the death of the spirit.

It is all theory of course and there are several camps that differ in their understanding of the lake of fire. Some believe that the spirit is tormented forever while others believe that only the beast and false prophets as well as Satan will be in torment forever. Theology is wide open on this simply because we have only Isaiah and Revelations to explain it.

Text
Then insult upon injury is that the Lake of Fire is hell.The book of Revelation is the only place of all scriptures to say anything of it.It is definitely NOT hell (for the above reasons).All of Revelation is a metaphor.In context it is Gods judgement of correction of cleansing ... not punishment.It is not a literal fire in the least as you pointed out it is impossible and infinitely perverted.

reply to post by Rex282


Revelations 20:14 tells us that hell is cast into the lake of fire. By this I am led to believe that this means that these are two separate places. Hell is a temporary terrestrial holding for spiritual bodies who are not allowed into the celestial heavens. Hell is eventually destroyed along with death. I see nothing that tells me that there is a cleansing of the spirit (Pergatory) in the many bibles that I have read. That is nothing more than a church doctrine in Catholic faith.

As far as believing that Revelations is all metaphors is not true at all and very disingenuous. Isaiah 65 and 66 chapters verify much of Revelations as being prophetic and not symbolic as you have stated. John did not write the Revelations that Christ Jesus gave him as being confusing and only a few to understand. These Revelations were meant to inform all humanity of the Kingdom of Heaven which was established at Jesus giving His life.

Text
If the bible had been truly written by 'god', it would contain helpful references to such mysteries as germs, or lightning, or the nature of the universe. Since it does not, it's relatively easy to conclude the bible was written by seriously uninformed humans, not the omniscient.

reply to post by signalfire


The reason you have not read of the mysteries of germs or the nature of this universe is that you are not taught by knowledgeable teachers. The bible is not the only teaching tool of God. There are other teaching aspects such as Oral Torah. By choice we are what we have become. Without Oral Torah you would have very limited understanding of the OT. You also have covenants which very little is taught. The OT had a covenant with nation Israel as a community while the NT has a covenant on an individual acceptance of Christ Jesus. There is a vast difference in these covenants between God and humanity. The Hebrews had certain restrictions in food and cultural practices that are not observed today and as a result we have more disease due to many aspects other than food.

The same goes for the universe. A good example is that in which our scientists tell us that this universe is expanding and yet when you ask them what it is expanding into they remain silent. They simply are not shown or told and yet when we look at 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4 we can see that the ancients understood that there is a third heaven which is outside of this universe and that this universe is contained in this third heaven as a fig is in your belly. Tell me. How did the ancients know this?

Through choice, we have wars upon wars which erase thousands of years of cultural progress and continue to prevent a first class civilization. By choice we breed murder and theft and all sorts of ungodliness and seemingly it never ends. Then we have the audacity to blame the Creator for the gift to govern ourselves. It leads to pure insanity.

mistake post

reply to post by 2x Helix


You'll be back before you die. At the very least I believe God will try to bring you back.