New Jersey Bans “Gay Conversion Therapy”

We all know it doesn’t work. We all know how profoundly damaging it is. But finally someone is addressing the elephant in the room and decided to protect children from the horrific manipulation of one of God’s most complex phsio-psychological elements of the body… human sexuality.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.huffingtonpost.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Chris Christie Signs Ban On Gay Conversion

reply to post by jupiter869


This is sure to pi$$ off allot of parents.

I can tell you right now that IF a teenager wants to be gay, there is no amount of therapy that is going to change his mind.

This bill backs up that gay teenager and alleviates the headache of having to deal with it.

I agree with Gov. Christie that this is in fact a form of child abuse. After all, what right does anyone have to make someone convert to anything? That is what Freedom Of Choice is all about.

UNLESS, .. . they are trying to say that children are not adaults and have no say so in their own lives.

ETA:
If they think they can convert ANYONE then why the hell don't they start in prisons and convert all of those criminals to "Do Gooders"? . . . Especially those damn Serial Killers.

So does that now mean that for those confused about their sexuality (as many are for complex reasons), they now have much less means for professional assistance/counseling?

Because that's what I read between the lines and I do not see that as a good thing at all (despite the erroneous actions of some therapeutic methods of practice used as ammunition).

"In a signing note accompanying the bill that will be made public Monday, Christie said he believes people are born gay and that homosexuality is not a sin."

Not all 'gay' people are born with homosexual tendencies and Christie's own brand of belief should rightfully not lead to such strict control legislation depriving those that do genuinely seek such methods of assistance.

Condragulations New Jersey!

whilst i am not a supporter of politicians regardless of your "Side" this is a step in the right direction, it's a trauma that children, young adults, and adults don't need to go through

You better werk it New Jersey!

So now if we have enough votes we can just ban the opposition?

Maybe they can ban Democrats and Republicans next. At least that would be useful.

This is NOT a healthy precedent regardless of your position on this issue.

I'd say he did the right thing here despite being about as Republican as Bill Clinton in anything but name.

Whatever the man's politics though, the process of "Conversion" is, to my understanding, BARBARIC, given the cause and goal. Similar methods are used in Cult De-programming if we're talking about the same thing and even that is REAL border line for where helping vs. violating someone comes for a line. There? I call it well worth the risk tho.... Converting gays?

Ummm... Okay, for those who think "Converting" gays is a dandy idea... How about bleeding people to cure illness or faith healing for terminal disease? It's one of those areas where I think he's right in saying, in slightly different words, the EXTREME ignorance of parents shouldn't become abuse to the kids after listening to misguided snake oil salesman offering a cure to something that ISN'T a disease in the first place.

I wish I was less confused, or at least confused less often. The question here seems to be the role of the state in individual sexual issues.

Originally, the cry was "Keep your laws off our bodies," in order to provide for legal abortions. State laws against Sodomy and Homosexual behavior were attacked, as things that were none of the State's business. "Consenting adults in the privacy of their bedrooms," was the phrase, I believe.

Yet on the other hand, we have States requiring that Kindergarteners get sex education, be allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms if they are confused about their sexual identities, very young teenagers can get abortions and the State will prevent the parents from finding out, Plan B pills are proposed to be sold with the same regulation as aspirin (none), criticism of one's sexual choices in schools falls afoul of anti-bullying laws, etc.

Forgive the cynicism, but it seems that the sexual "experimenters" (for want of a better term), [/]iwant State intervention when it helps them, and reject it when it doesn't. There is no principal here about the proper role of the State. For the "experimenters" it's simply a question of telling the State what to do, then picking whichever principle can be dreamed up to support it.

Were this a question of "choice" or "civil rights" or "sexual freedom," Christie's decision would have been improper, but since the "experimenters" want this decision, they have to find a different set of principles. There are less Draconian ways to deal with rogue "therapists," but the "experimenters" wanted the law, so they called the State in to order people around on issues of sexuality.

I applauded more for the fact he has said he believes we are born gay and it's not a sin (for those that are religious)

i understand how this may be hypocritical in saying we have freedoms to do as we will, yet banning this 'conversion therapy' but i believe it is more of a stance as you are born gay and you can't alter that, and these therapies are damaging to children and adults

people are utilizing their title and getting paid to mentally abuse people, i believe that is what they want to ban

reply to post by charles1952


Charles, I know you to be a reasonable and I believe, warm hearted person. You always strike me as logical while keeping an open mind. Never so open to let your brains fall out though. Important thing there!

So, I'd ask you take a moment, if you haven't before. Wander out into the ether and do a little research on what the process is for "taking", holding and "converting" a human being the "specialist" believes is gay and needs 'correcting'. It reminds me of a nicer form of what my own sort endured in the Witch Trials, without the same fatal ending (Although, deaths from that process are not entirely unheard of, either).

Your statement makes me think you're looking at only the moral and/or ethical issues. Those are plenty, in this case. Don't get me wrong. However, the literal violation the process itself inflicts upon another person is enough for Christie to get applause by itself, IMO.

reply to post by Darth_Prime

Dear Darth_Prime,

Thank you, I appreciate that post. It was responsive, serious and thought out. Nicely done. Now, if it doesn't distress you, I'll let you know that I agree with most of your thoughts.

people are utilizing their title and getting paid to mentally abuse people, i believe that is what they want to ban

I admit I haven't read the law, but saying that, I completely agree they should stop anything even resembling an abusive "therpist." When you give so much power to an individual to "adjust" your mind, the consequences of the misuse of that power are horrendous. The State must take steps to prevent that from happening. (I was going to say "should take steps," but really, there's no one better placed to do it.)

I also strongly agree with you that having an homosexual orientation is not a sin. Again, it maybe surprising, but that's also the position of the Catholic Church. I don't know about the Protestant denominations.

The issue that this seems to hang on is whether the entirety of one's sexual orientation is genetic and fixed. I don't know. I'm not sure anyone does.

I've heard that sexual orientation is a scale, or spectrum, with extremes of hetero- and homo- sexuality at the ends, and a kind of "I don't care" bi-sexuality in the middle. I don't know if our initial position on the spectrum is set entirely by genetics with upbrining and culture having nothing to do with it. I also don't know if we can slide along the spectrum in one direction or the other. If we can, is that a place for therapists? I'm not sure.

The massive uncertainity in my mind, and, I suspect in many scientists' make me wonder about using this approach in solving the very real problem of abusive "therapists."

I would have no difficulty in asking for a thorough investigation into those who offer that "service," filing criminal charges where appropriate, and recommending the loss of license.

With respect,
Charles1952

Yet more propaganda to label all who reject sodomy and homosexual lifestyles as "abusers". We are not far from handing over power to governmental authorities to remove children from all homes which will not bow down to its new state defined immorality. Homosexuality goes hand in hand with pederasty in every civilisation it's infected. Those children cannot be "converted" because they are grooming society for the public acceptance of young boys sexually groomed by perverts. Ancient Mayan, ancient Greece, the middle east, china, Tibet, ancient Rome - its in the archaeological and historic records. To accomplish it, controlled media merely defines the sexual deviants as normal and those who are heterosexual as the abusers. Calling good evil and evil good. And it works as we can see.

In his book titled Propaganda, published in 1928, Edward Bernays wrote:

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which democratic society is organized...

Whatever attitude one chooses toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons - a trifling fraction... who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind..."

----
“After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the ‘90s.”

“As cynical as it may seem,” they explained at the outset, “AIDS gives us a chance, however brief, to establish ourselves as a victimized minority legitimately deserving of America’s special protection and care...”

The bottom line of Kirk and Madsen’s master plan? “The campaign we outline in this book, though complex, depends centrally upon a program of unabashed propaganda, firmly grounded in long-established principles of psychology and advertising.”

Kirk and Madsen’s “war goal,” explains marketing expert Paul E. Rondeau of Regent University, was to “force acceptance of homosexual culture into the mainstream, to silence opposition, and ultimately to convert American Society...”

Okay, you might be wondering, even granting the movement’s cutting-edge marketing savvy, how do you sell middle America on those five hundred sex partners and weird sexual practices? Answer, according to Kirk and Madsen, you don’t. Just don’t talk about it. Rather, look and act as normal as possible for the camera.

“When you’re very different, and people hate you for it,” they explain, “this is what you do: first you get your foot in the door, by being as similar as possible; then, and only then - when your one little difference is finally accepted - can you start dragging in your other peculiarities, one by one. You hammer in the wedge narrow end first. As the saying goes, allow the camel’s nose beneath your tent, and his whole body will soon follow.”

In other words, sadomasochists, leather fetishists, cross-dressers, transgenders, (pedophiles), and other “peculiar” members of the homosexual community need to keep away from the tent and out of sight while the sales job is under way. Later, once the camel is safely inside, there will be room for all."
parablesblog.blogspot.co.uk...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Dear Wrabbit2000,

You're absolutely right. I have a wealth of ignorance to draw from. I know that there are wildly abusive procedures taking place to attempt to manage a complete reversal of some one's orientation. Some of those techniques can only be described as torturous.

What I don't know is whether there are any "acceptable" techniques to pull the "questioning" from sitting on the fence to one side or the other. Or, are there any techniques to modify a person's sexuality so that instead of being at one extreme of a sexuality scale the person can be "nudged" more to the center? (Assuming the person doesn't want to be at that extreme.)

That's all a long way of asking is there any "Non-torturous" way to bring a person closer to the sexuality he desires? If it is all, irrevocably, fixed by genetics, and nothing in the environment affects a person's sexuality at all, then go for it, Christie, the therapy is a fraud. But, do we know that?

Wallowing in my ignorance, I will continue to regard you

With respect,
Charles1952

The ban as far as I understand is for minors.

The vast majority of this stuff involves abuse. Be it mental or physical.

If an adult chooses to participate in such a thing, as they genuinely want to figure out their sexuality, than fine. No problem.

But it's wrong for parents to be afforded the right to allow others to abuse their child, most likely against their own will for their religions beliefs.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Dear tothetenthpower,

Thanks. You encouraged me to do some looking and you're quite correct, it does apply to minors.

Unfortunately, I'm left in the same position. If some type of "gay conversion therapy" is legitimate and does not involve abuse, I think it should be available to anyone who wants it. Minors, with parental consent, can do just about everything else.

If, on the other hand, the only method available is abusive, or is shown to be completely useless, it should be banned for everyone regardless of age.

(I guess this makes me an extremist?)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


And i appreciate your thoughtful reply, no need for attacking or other such nonsense straw man tactics

as far as your reply, you cannot force someone into a sexuality, if that was the case than it should be legal for Homosexuals to have therapy to turn people gay. and peoples argument about gays 'Brainwashing' children into being Gay should not be an argument if one can have therapy to turn one straight


as far as Born gay, i can tell you i was. the problem is if you have research that states we are born gay one side would say it was a bias research and just part of the 'Gay Agenda' the government is forcing gays on you etc. and if you have a report that says you were not born gay one side would claim that it was politicians giving in to the religious side for political gain etc



if people would use better judgement, sympathy, and empathy towards all Humans we wouldn't need the government to 'Ban' or 'Allow' certain things, we all deserve our freedoms, and that is not forcing anyone to believe in anything, just saying that if we could all coexist as humans and be tolerate and not discriminate on any side for any reason, race, sexuality, gender, religion, political party etc we wouldn't need any 'bans' we could all be free

reply to post by WhoKnows100


Don't call me a pedophile it's unnecessary,

Homosexuality does not go hand in hand with pederasty, sorry but that statement is full of ignorance. you are entitled to your freedom of belief, i have stated numerous times i will defends anyone's freedoms as long as i am afforded the same, but that statement is ignorant

reply to post by Darth_Prime

Dear Darth_Prime,

if people would use better judgement, sympathy, and empathy towards all Humans we wouldn't need the government to 'Ban' or 'Allow' certain things, we all deserve our freedoms, and that is not forcing anyone to believe in anything, just saying that if we could all coexist as humans and be tolerate and not discriminate on any side for any reason, race, sexuality, gender, religion, political party etc we wouldn't need any 'bans' we could all be free

I'm with you, here, have an internet hug.

Something similar is happening on the religious side. No reasonable person cares what another believes (at least in the civic and political realm) but the upset starts occuring when people become "noticable" for lack of a better term.

High schools have banned the wearing of Rosaries, Muslims have used mass prayers in streets to block traffic, any expression of religion outside of a church is frowned on. I know that last remark seems excessive, but I've noticed that Obama doesn't use the term "Freedom of religion," he uses "Freedom of worship."

Everybody feels attacked, and thus are constantly alert for the sign of another impending attack. The result is that we see what we are looking for, and everybody has a constant grievance against everybody else who isn't obviously on their side.

This leads to stupid, aggressive decisions all over the place, and I don't know how to stop it. It would be difficult, but I'd like to see every group mount a serious, well funded campaign to display their innocence and lack of hostile intent. It would do no good for a group to say to themselves "Obviously, we don't have any hostile intent," the group would have to find those who are afraid and ask them what they fear. Then, disprove the need for fear.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Unfortunately, I'm left in the same position. If some type of "gay conversion therapy" is legitimate and does not involve abuse, I think it should be available to anyone who wants it.

There's the real question of it all. Does any actual 'gay conversion' therapy work? More importantly however, is it even necessary.

I've seen a psychologist every few months since the time I was 16. For a variety of issues related to my upbringing and eventually it actually turned into something I enjoyed. Being able to have conversations within limits, with somebody I trust whole hardheartedly is what keeps me coming back.

I've done outreach programs with gay youth quite a bit, and the number one thing that drives them further into confusion is telling them what they feel is wrong. I know of no gay conversion therapy that doesn't include that.

I have seen and been involved in therapy for teens who are sexually confused and it's worked for them. I've seen both instances where teens either figured out they were or weren't with the help of a professional.

Gay Conversion "therapists", are probably not licensed psychologists in most cases. I'm just putting that out there without any relevant data, but I would think they are mostly church workers and community volunteers.

~Tenth

Good for New Jersey. All the research shows this "therapy" as being ineffective at best and the cause for depression and other emotional disorders at worst. This is a barbaric practice that should be wiped out completely.

reply to post by charles1952



Let me ask you this, in helping clear up the situation by a personal perspective......

First, I assume you are not gay. I'm assuming this because for all the chats you've engaged in on the topic, you've never hinted at it ..and that would seem odd with someone straight forward as you are. So, I'm assuming it's because you are straight.

Assuming a 2nd thing to say the above is right (a lot of assuming here, I know) I come to my question.....

What would it take to MAKE you gay? I *PROMISE* you, it could be done. How much suffering...how much anguish and how severely you had to be broken to achieve it is the question. The end result, if someone doesn't care about method to get there, isn't a question in my mind at all. Cults show much worse can be done to people and with far less force used ....but these "specialists" don't have the requirements or the "style" of the Cults to do it covertly. They just use the sledgehammer approach.

....Now... After you've been used, abused and literally broken both mentally and quite possibly physically? Are you going to feel any doubts about how wrong it was?

*** I hope you know I'm not meaning this argumentative in any way. Quite the opposite. The edge is only in presenting a scenario to really cause deep thought and consideration on how utterly beaten and hopeless the kid must be to know...whatever is being done WILL NOT STOP until the outcome being sought has been achieved....so fighting works until the break point is reached. Just like Cult Deprogramming....with more viciousness, IMO.