Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

dukeofjive696969
Your title should read most religions are corrupt, but i guess that wouldent fit in a certain agenda, they are good things in religion, but there all mainly tools to control the masses.

edit on 18-9-2013 by dukeofjive696969 because: (no reason given)

the only good thing in religion is love and charity. As soon as you join a religion you are seperating yourself from everything and everything is god. You are slashing the oneness,causing division which is the opposite of love. Everything is love. Love,gravity, its all the same. Its the coming together. The fundamental principle that unites everything. Dont seperate yourselfs by joining a religion.

Well thats my 2 bobs worth anyway.

reply to post by wildtimes

The FACT is that there is NO GOD here
among us today -- judging, forgiving,
smiting, fixing, or keeping score on
people - there are only OTHER PEOPLE smiting - killing - hating people in the
name of their wrathful and jealous
"God."

FACT? you school me about using this word and then yourself use it??
Interesting how you think you are capable of defining what God should do to get accepted that He exists.
Its a typical atheistic idea "that if God exist why isn't He doing anything to stop all sufferings"
yes the god of your expectations doesn't exist as God has a different plan and it wouldn't change because you don't want it. It kind of ruins the idea of who is God
Good you brought up the idea of "jealous" God.
Its more like common sense God. If i was created by God and am being sustained by Him, it would be stupid to run and thank a stone/idol or a tomb/grave or a prophet and make these equal to God as it would just harm my spirituality.
I don't agree to the use of term jealous for God anyway. God does not get affected by what the creation does.

I don't think you're
"low" - I think you're delusional. And,
since I know English is NOT your
native tongue, I need to ask you kindly to clarify ---- do you mean
"communicating God" (as in - a God
who communicates with us?) or
"communicating WITH God" (as in -
being able to ask/talk and receive an
answer)?

you say the sentence(in bold) and it conflicts with itself, so i am not "low" just delusional and you are enlighted and delusion free but yes that does not mean that i am lacking or need to wisen up to your "higher" level, oh wait a minute, you actually wish that..

Regarding communicating God, you would have got what i meant if you had read my replies carefully. Communicating God, God who communicates via messengers and revelations. God does not communicate directly to all people, indirectly through signs and dreams yes.
And i was under the impression that you don't believe in praying.

Your native culture is not BETTER; it is
DIFFERENT. That does not make it
WRONG. You are one of the MOST
JUDGMENTAL people I have EVER come
across.

i don't really care much about my native culture and i am not the one calling others delusional just because they have their own worldview and beliefs

I find Islam to be a stifling, rigid, non-
compassionate "religion" especially when it comes to what others believe! - but that does NOT make me anti-God. You have no claim to how I
"should" communicate with God, or
how God "should" or "will"
communicate with me.... how dare you??!

Then you don't know Islam and from what i see you also don't show any eagerness to know except to seek confirmations for what you already believe about it rather than questioning your beliefs.

I never even thought about telling you how you should communicate with God etc. If you assumed it then i cannot help you. I simply stated that you do not believe that God communicates by revelations and prophets and that according to me is anti-God. This stands put you in a strange situation. You claim that God communicates with you, which i agree as i said before that signs and dreams do sometimes come from God. So tell me did God clearly told you that He DOES NOT send revelations and prophet? If its not the case then what you say is nothing but assumptions but if you try and present it as FACT then you are saying something about God that you don't know and that is very anti-God.

In my eyes, you have enslaved
YOURSELF to something (a deity) that
not only cannot be proven, but IS NOT
HERE TO ASK ... revelation is a VERY
questionable claim, and if you cannot
see that, you are blinded indeed. Blinded by fear, superstition, and the
'sayings' of others.

you are entitled to your opinion but what you say is very relative and subjective.
If you think that believing prophets means relying on sayings of others. What do you want? That God personally and directly talks with you? good luck with that
like i said before, try and prove yourself(your beliefs) as wrong not run around to seek confirmations and like minded people who pat each others back and feel that they are all so right.
This thread made me read more books on Qur'an and now i am more certain and ready to refute the op, the problem is that the op is avoiding me and giving all sorts of excuses rather than answering my simple questions.

reply to post by logical7

And i was under the impression that you don't believe in praying.

Well, you're under LOTS of incorrect impressions. This doesn't surprise me. I'm not an atheist, either, and you should know that, too.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to think YOU know how God behaves, what God wants, and so on and so forth...yet you attempt to belittle me for doing so. Funny how you ignored the part about Hell, too.

see THIS POST of mine from the previous page:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You just did it again.

reply to post by wildtimes


reply to post by wildtimes

stop worrying about
\'Hell\' - it doesn\'t exist.

Now that i would called arrogance and a drift away from reason as i have explained earlier.

You say that i am fearful and superstitious and so i believe in hell?
Well think about it, nobody \"wants\" hell to be true including me and yet i believe in it, if i was scared about it i could have deluded myself that its a myth just to feel better.
Tell me, WHO is more deluded according to you? One who doesn\'t want a thing to be true yet accepts that it could be possible or the one who doesn\'t want it to be true and so convinces oneself that it must be a myth!

Reality of God, Heaven, Hell, Afterlife etc cannot be acertained by historical study and that is just common sense but yes historical study can be used to confirm an already made opinion
God did not start existing when the OT was written, neither God suddenly change went NT came into picture.
Only atheists can fool themselves by stating that the God of Abrahamic faiths and the monotheistic idea started existing with the OT and use history as a proof.
Similar argument is true for hell too.
I am asking you to used your own brain and not seek confirming material to keep believing that Hell Sure is a myth

If you are true to yourself you\'l admit that you don\'t know(cannot know for sure) and it could be possible.
I am not asking you to believe in hell, i am just objecting to your unreasonable conclusion of being 100% sure.

Btw i am relaxed, i just love intelligent arguments, so i hope you\'l stick to reason.

It really makes me wonder how you
would behave if you KNEW there was
no hell, though....
are you frightened of what you might
\'unleash\' within yourself? You sound
like a caged animal. Sorry, just, my (educated, non-Muslim) Western
opinion.

we have not yet established the truth about Hell, so why don\'t you treat it open mindedly and be open to either possibility or are you a anti-Hell zealot who cannot even agree to temporarily suspend her strongly held beliefs?

I am very well aware of what i am. Caged animal? Interesting well if thats the alternative to running amok, lead by desires and provided justifications by brain then i am happy to be caged

i hope you are not trying to unseperably link \"educated\", \"non-muslim\" and \"western\" like our good friend FF because education and beliefs are separate issues. Its just a western assumption/wish that increased education means weaker beliefs in religion, at least not in case of Islam as you could easily find that most converts in the west are well educated people.
Its not education that makes people better or worse. Education is just a tool, it will take you to conclusions that you wish to go to, so a really honest and careful person would identify this dangerous self deluding risk and do everything in his/her power to keep checking against it. It could appear as being caged to some outsiders..

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

And i was under the impression that you don't believe in praying.

Well, you're under LOTS of incorrect impressions. This doesn't surprise me. I'm not an atheist, either, and you should know that, too.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to think YOU know how God behaves, what God wants, and so on and so forth...yet you attempt to belittle me for doing so. Funny how you ignored the part about Hell, too.

see THIS POST of mine from the previous page:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You just did it again.

i was actually typing you a reply about your claim of hell as a myth.
For the sake of argument lets assume i don't know what God wants( i at least have a belief in revelations and so can claim it)
whats your argument for so surely KNOWING what God does not do?

logical7
i hope you are not trying to unseperably link \"educated\", \"non-muslim\" and \"western\" like our good friend FF because education and beliefs are separate issues. ... Its not education that makes people better or worse.

EDUCATION HELPS ... lack of education, while clinging to absurd archaic religious notions, makes things worse. There is a direct correlation between lack of education, and violence/abuse of women. Getting help to the massive numbers of abuse victims in 'Muslim' countries is difficult because of ignorance (lack of education) and Muslim religious norms.

Abuse of Women in Saudi Arabia
Abuse of Women in Iran
Violence Against Women and Girls in Iran
Violence Against Women in Egypt
Violence Against Women - Stats Worldwide
Iranian Women Blocked from 77 College Degrees .. because they were 'getting too educated'

MORE IMPORTANTLY -

Stats on Muslim Women Abused - correlation with education and financial levels
Correlation between Education Level and Amount of Abuse

Education Levels in Muslim Countries

Nearly one in three people in the Arab world is illiterate, including nearly half of all women in the region, the Tunis-based Arab League Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (Alecso) said Monday.

Three-quarters of the 100 million people unable to read or write in the 21 Arab countries are aged between 15 and 45 years old, Alecso said in a statement.

Equally alarming, some 46.5% of women in the region are illiterate, the organisation reported, urging governments to put the fight against illiteracy at the top of their agendas.[6]

Lack of education promotes violence.
Islamic countries promote non-education of women.
Therefore - education and beliefs are NOT separate issues.
Therefore - statistics do indeed show that education DOES generally make people behave better.

reply to post by logical7

For the sake of argument lets assume i don't know what God wants( i at least have a belief in revelations and so can claim it)
whats your argument for so surely KNOWING what God does not do?

WHAT?!! For the sake of argument let's assume YOU don't know what God wants?
Well, well, well. Isn't THAT refreshing!!

You CAN'T claim to KNOW when you admit that you have a BELIEF in revelations. I do not share that belief. You cannot CLAIM it is a FACT that you know just because you BELIEVE some dude who claimed God told him!

If you are true to yourself you'l admit that you don't know(cannot know for sure) and it could be possible.
I am not asking you to believe in hell, i am just objecting to your unreasonable conclusion of being 100% sure.

LOL!!!! Ooooh, dude....*shake my head* YOU are the one saying you ARE 100% sure, and KNOW and that your religion has the BASIC FACTS.

I have CONSISTENTLY SAID "I don't know" - I am an agnostic. I don't know. I KNOW that I don't know. That's why I say, "I don't know." Get it? I don't know. I say that because...why? I DON'T KNOW!!!

YOU are the one who said God is a FACT

The Islamic Worldview revolved around the basic facts that there is God and that God communicates to humans through prophets and revelation.

Remember that? Note the underlined part. You said BASIC FACTS. How many posts do I have to make to get you to see what you are doing? YOU ARE CLAIMING FACTS based on nothing but "belief".

So tell me did God clearly told you that He DOES NOT send revelations and prophet?

Did God clearly 'told' YOU that HE DOES? I'm not asking if he told Muhammed, or anyone else. DID HE TELL YOU? Personally???

If its not the case then what you say is nothing but assumptions but if you try and present it as FACT then you are saying something about God that you don't know and that is very anti-God.

RIGHT BACK AT YOU. Hypocrite. You're squirming.

The MYTHOLOGY of hell is well established. Has been for a loooonnng time. Churches and religious leaders have ADMITTED they made it up. Did you look at the link?

I doubt it.
And you talk about people should make an effort to PROVE THEIR OWN BELIEFS WRONG.
I do that, ALL OF THE TIME. It is YOU, my duplicitous friend, who insists that you know "facts", and consistently attack others who say what you claim are NOT ESTABLISHED FACTS.

Again - read carefully now:
It is an Established Fact that the myth of Hell came from the time BEFORE the Abrahamic religions, that Jesus NEVER talked about it, that translations were DELIBERATELY "tweaked" to include it, and that it was an effort to get the "ignorant, uncivilized masses" to behave.

Yes, this post is repetitive. Perhaps maybe you'll see how two-faced you are.

reply to post by wildtimes

I have CONSISTENTLY SAID "I don't
know" - I am an agnostic. I don't
know. I KNOW that I don't know.
That's why I say, "I don't know." Get
it? I don't know. I say that
because...why? I DON'T KNOW!!! YOU are the one who said God is a
FACT

Now how about saying the same for Hell?

Did God clearly told YOU that HE DOES?
Not asking if he told Muhammed, or
anyone else. DID HE TELL YOU? Personally???

No as i said, God does not talk directly to all and thats a fact. I have read the revelation and biographies of Muhammad pbuh and came to my conclusions that it must be from God.

So you admit that you again don't know and it would be stupid to claim that God does not send revelations for sure? Good that you are coming around.

RIGHT BACK AT YOU. Hypocrite. You're
squirming.

i am not squirming. Anyone who says anything about God that they don't know to be true are wrong. The only way they can be sure is if God communicates it to them in some way, either directly or by revelations. You say that revelations are not a way, so you are out of options to say anything about God. I believe in revelations as there is no other way by which we can certainly know anything about God, its essential that God sends revelations to let us know about Him, if He doesn't that mean He does not want us to know Him, so you can then at least drop the philosophy of "finding/knowing" God because everything you assume about God are "sayings" of others. You are completely blind from God by the beliefs you hold. So its upto you how you explain this to yourself and what you do about it if u can't.

CirqueDeTruth
I know very little about Islam. Oh, I know a little, like the five pillars and all...

Why is it, with religious thought - people work to tear down what they don't agree with? Instead, why are we not looking for connections, building bridges, and working toward reformation of thought and practice? Instead of trying to tear each other down, why instead do we not choose to work together and fix those things that separate each of us from one another?

This is a very good thread, but it could have been presented better, I think. As an appeal for change and reformation of what man has corrupted, instead of an appeal to people of a certain faith to walk away from Islam.

Cirque

I believe this thread was presented very well by the original poster in his specific reasons why he decided to leave his religion. I too faced a similar battle and, so, I do understand his desire to download this information to others that may be struggling with similar doubts and confusion. It must have been an immense emotional and spiritual battle for him, as it was for me.

In the end, it all comes down to a personal choice for a spiritual and - perhaps, perhaps not - a religious journey that we all as individuals have the right to explore, adopt for life and/or dismiss.

logical7
I have read the revelation and biographies of Muhammad pbuh and came to my conclusions that it must be from God.

What was it that pointed you in that direction?
Was it that Muhammad was a caravan thief and murderer?
Was it that he made claims of visions, but backed none of them up with any proof?
Was it that the so called 'revelations' were full of scientific and historical errors?
Was it that the so called 'revelations' contradicted nearly all of sacred scripture?
Was it that the so called 'revelations' contradicted eyewitness accounts of the life of Christ?
Was it that the so called 'revelations' are full of misogyny and ya' kinda' dig that?
Was it a desire to be part of something violent and powerful even if that thing is not true?
Was it that the so called 'revelations' have been proven to be poorly plagiarized from the Gnostics, Jews, Zoroastrians and Pagans?

Which of those was it that made you buy into the claim made 1200 years ago by Muhammad
that he was specially chosen by God to set the world straight?

reply to post by wildtimes

It is an Established Fact that the myth of Hell came from the time BEFORE the Abrahamic religions, that Jesus NEVER talked about it, that translations were DELIBERATELY "tweaked" to include it, and that it was an effort to get the "ignorant, uncivilized masses" to behave.
Yes, this post is repetitive. Perhaps maybe you'll see how two-faced you are.

so you will rely on the "sayings" of others when it suits you?
And again the same mistake, you think hell is a myth because pagans believed it before abrahamic faiths started
i tried to tell you how stupid it is to use history to find the reality of God, Heaven, Hell etc.
I am asking you to use your brain and nothing else to tell me how likely or unlikely it is that hell may exists. Its the unseen. Just like God and so its again linked with God. If God says hell exist then it does or the opposite.
By denying that God communicates by revelations, you go completely blind and have no right to say anything, you can ofcourse say whatever you wish but its just your opinion.
And please don't make me repeat that a thing being abused does not necessarily make it a myth. And you use claims that text were altered to put idea of hell in it, how can you be sure unless you have the unaltered text to compare? OT not having Hell? Well obviously, the jews considered themselves God's choosen people, how could they be sent to hell? And they considered non jews as just cattles and so no heaven or hell obviously for the gentiles.
Claiming that OT does not have hell as proof for it being myth also implies that OT is unaltered. So tell me do you claim that too?
i am just saying only God knows the truth about these things and either He choose to communicate it to us or not. If not, great! then we have no responsibility of whatever comes after death. If yes then we better, search it, confirm it and heed it.

reply to post by logical7

Anyone who says anything about God that they don't know to be true are wrong. The only way they can be sure is if God communicates it to them in some way, either directly or by revelations. You say that revelations are not a way, so you are out of options to say anything about God.

Whatever.

You are the one claiming to know what is true about God, with nothing but a merchant's step-son's word for it. Muhammed's "religious" background was a mixture of ALL the traditions that came and went from Mecca. This alone shows that he had "biases" of his own. Just because he got a bunch of gullible people to believe him is not PROOF of anything, and is NOT LOGICAL. ANYONE who has prior exposure to ANY religious philosophy or tradition is automatically suspect when trying to create "their own."

Even if hell IS real, I'm not worried about going there - because I'm not an evil person. Nor am I convinced that I need someone ELSE to tell me what "truth" is - because THEY don't know, either. Neither do you.

You are telling me what my "options" are to say anything about God? Sorry, bucko, but YOUR opinion of whether or not I "can" say anything about God is irrelevant. LOL This is boring me. You are impossible, and what you call "intelligent discussion" is anything but.

“It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication; after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.”


― Thomas Paine, Age of Reason: Being an Investigation of the True and Fabulous Theology

www.goodreads.com...

reply to post by FlyersFan


I'm wondering if you question Christians that hard when they tell you they read the bible and accept it to be from God...

logical7
I am asking you to use your brain and nothing else to tell me how likely or unlikely it is that hell may exists.

People here are asking you to use YOUR brain and nothing else to tell us how likely or unlikely it is that a murdering caravan thief, trying to gain power, would invent 'revelations' from God in order to gain that political and military power? 'Revelations' that came with no proof and that have been greatly disproven.

Works both ways.

unphased
I'm wondering if you question Christians that hard when they tell you they read the bible and accept it to be from God...

You betchya. Buckle up ... it's a bumpy ride ...

ATS Thread - 10 Commandments - Doctrine of Men
ATS Thread - Abraham, Prophet of God or Something Else
I've got one out there somewhere on the 'Transfiguration of Jesus' ... can't remember the title.
etc etc etc
And dont' even get me started on the book of Revelation ...

reply to post by logical7

i tried to tell you how stupid it is to use history to find the reality of God, Heaven, Hell etc.

And I tried to tell YOU how stupid it is to use some illiterate warmonger's "words" to find the reality of God, Heaven, Hell, etc. Yet you claim that Muhammed and a mistranslated book full of contradictions, inhumane rules, and errors in logic IS THE TRUTH. Ridiculous.

I am asking you to use your brain and nothing else to tell me how likely or unlikely it is that hell may exists.

My BRAIN tells me it is unlikely, superstitious, and a method devised by rulers to put "fear of God" into their subjects' heads. My BRAIN tells me that there are TOO MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIONS and different views on heaven, hell, afterlife, God, Jesus, prophets, the Bible, etc. and so on and so forth for ANY OF THEM to be taken as "the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

My BRAIN tells me to look at outcomes. Did Muhammed usher in world peace? No. Did the Roman Catholic Church? No. Did ANY religion usher in world-wide peace? NO.

My BRAIN tells me to look at ALL the various 'ideas', to carefully weigh and consider them ALL as suspect, but potentially having SOME truths to them; my BRAIN tells me that the ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR is the closest thing we have to the truth. My BRAIN tells me, when coupled with my education, life experience, innate curiosity, and determination not to be lied to - that Buddhism is probably the closest to the truth; it is ALSO the closest to what Jesus himself taught.

LOVE is what matters; Patience, Endurance, Moderation are what matter. LAUGHTER, TEARS, SMILES, HUGS, and JOY and ANGER are the ONLY universally understood body-language for human emotions.

Spirituality is every INIDIVIDUAL'S unique path and responsibility to explore, WITHIN. Nothing you can say will change that. My BRAIN tells me that the truth is NOT determined by a show of hands, or the words of ONE HUMAN BEING, or 2 billion who happen to believe that ONE.

Its the unseen. Just like God and so its again linked with God. If God says hell exist then it does or the opposite.

God hasn't said anything of the kind. Only men have done so. Ever. ONLY HUMAN BEINGS have said so. Only PEOPLE have EVER said so.

Period.

Use your brain, logical7. Use it LOGICALLY. Your words on ATS portray a fear-monger, a zealot, a hater; alternating with a gullible, naive, scared young man. You often resort to bullying, project YOUR thinking onto others, and argue out of both sides of your mouth rather than practicing insightful, educated, accepting, open-minded thought and discussion. You are a closed-minded person. Deal with it.

Sahabi has the right idea. We are all connected. We are all ONE. Your way is a divisive, punitive, harsh, and unloving one. No thanks.

reply to post by Sahabi

Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

One can go about looking for mistakes in the Mona Lisa and claim its a bad painting. It wouldn't mean a thing to people who sincerely acknowledge it as an artistic masterpiece. Similarly, the Koran would only appear "corrupted" only to people who go about looking for signs of corruption. It means nothing to Muslims.

You say you are a former Christian who converted to Islam. Yet you seem to confidently assume that your special take on Islam is somehow superior to that of Muslims who have, for 1,400 years, diligently studied the Koran and made it the foundation of their spiritual life.

reply to post by Sahabi


Do you think maybe the Jew's incorruptible Jew Book is corrupt?

The whole world is corrupt. Entropy rules. Do you have a special liquid we can dip the world into and make it shiny again?

sk0rpi0n
the Koran would only appear "corrupted" only to people who go about looking for signs of corruption. It means nothing to Muslims.

HOLD IT. So you are saying that Muslims turn off their brains and refuse to look at the obvious problems that Islam and the Qu'ran and Muhammad have? I guess that explains a lot ....

You'd think that, with a persons soul on the line, they'd open their eyes and make darn well sure that whatever religion they were following was 'right with God'. If a religion can't survive even a cursory look through ... then it is garbage and bad for the soul.

you seem to confidently assume that your special take on Islam is somehow superior to that of Muslims who have, for 1,400 years, diligently studied the Koran and made it the foundation of their spiritual life.

YOU seem to confidently assume that your special take on Christianity is somehow superior to that of CHristians who have, for over 2,000 years, diligently studies the bible and made it the foundation of their spiritual life. Dude ... you do exactly what you just sneered at the OP for doing.

By your own words - that Muslims don't look for signs of corruption - that tells us that those who 'diligently studied the Qu'ran - really didn't study it. If they had, they would have run away screaming ... or laughing ... or both ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

LOGICAL .. you still haven't addressed this question. You claimed that you came to the conclusion that the Qu'ran was from God. Answer my question ... how exactly did you come to that conclusion when the author was a caravan thief and murderer; that the book is full of scientific and historical errors as well as contradictions; and that it has been proven to be plagiarized from the Jews, Christians, Pagans, and Zoroastrians?? So how exactly did you come to the conclusion that this mess was 'of God'??