Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by maes2

 

Islam is not the religion of ignorance and it does not want deaf and blind followers.

Regarding jihad and holy-war,... Allah does indeed want deaf and blind followers. Allah says that regarding jihad, Muslims are ordered to fight, and if they dislike or question it, it is because they are ignorant because "Allah knows but you do not know".

"Jihad is ordained for you though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know."

Qur'an 2:216

nope.
Koran does not say that people should obey God or Mohammad blindly. it is saying that those who believe should be submitted to God truly. those which their wisdom confesses that they have found the truth.

believers, obey allah and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. should you dispute about anything refer it to allah and the messenger, if you believe in allah and the last day. that is better and the best interpretation. -Koran 4:59

there is a path between wisdom and heart. not all the muslims are believers.

the arabs declare: 'we believe. ' say: 'you do not', rather, say: 'we have become muslim, ' because belief has not yet found its way into your hearts. if you obey allah and his messenger, he will not reduce a thing from of your deeds. allah is the forgiving and the most merciful. -Koran 49:14

we are astray and ignorant. those who know the almighty God and it's description and they believe in unseen by wisdom and further by their hearts, they dedicate all of their existence to God. however whether they do it or not. everything is of God and God is needless.
holy war can not be unholy. and unholy clerics can not declare any holy war ! they are followers of Taghut and everything is just an excuse.

Originally posted by maes2
Koran does not say that people should obey God or Mohammad blindly. it is saying that those who believe should be submitted to God truly. those which their wisdom confesses that they have found the truth.

You just contradicted yourself.

Again ... try being a Muslim in a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia or Iran ... and go around asking legitimate questions about Muhammad. Ask for proof that Muhammads claims of heavenly visions were real. (there is no proof). Ask about Muhammads life - ask about him being a thief and murderer. Ask why the Qu'ran contradicts itself and contains historical and scientific errors. See how long you get to live after asking these valid questions.

reply to post by Sahabi

Regarding the superiority of the recitations of Ubay ibn Ka'b and Abdullah ibn Masu'd above the recitation of Zaid ibn Thabit; I presented 7 authentic ahadith from Sahih al-Bukhari,... 1 authentic hadith from Sahih Muslim,... 1 authentic hadith from Mustadrak al-Haakim,... 1 hadith from Siyar aa’laam an-Nubalaa,... 1 tafsir commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali,... and an excerpt from Al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an. You presented ZERO sources, yet I am the one speaking falsities and half- truths?

YES
because your narrative only looks good when its seen from an angle that you want everyone to see. As soon as few common sense questions are asked it does not stand any long.

You are having an idea that more hadiths being presented means you win the point? Really?
Maybe you are deliberately ignoring it when i say that these hadiths do not directly support your claim. You are using them and interpreting them in a selective way so as to support your narrative.

Lets see if i can help you notice the gaping faults in your narrative.

www.onislam.net/english/shariah/muhammad/his-companions/453000-zaid-ibn-thabit.html

The men went to the Prophet and said,
"O Prophet of Allah, this child of ours
knows by heart 17 chapters from the
Book, and recites them accurately as
they were revealed to you. Besides, he
is well versed in the matters of reading and writing. He wishes to be close to
you. Listen to him, if you will." The Prophet Muhammad listened to
Zayd's recitation, which he found very
clear and accurate, revealing that
teenager's special linguistic talents. So
he ordered him to learn Hebrew in
order to facilitate the Prophet's communication with the Jews. Later, Zayd ibn Thabit learnt Syriac,
thus becoming an official interpreter
and translator for the Prophet
Muhammad (peace and blessings of
Allah be upon him). Eventually, our
young hero became one of the official scribes of the Prophet (peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him) who
was called to write the Divine
revelations that came to the Prophet
from Heaven. This enabled the intelligent Zayd to
observe the circumstances of the
revelations very closely, to become,
later, the most important reference in
Qur'anic matters after the death of
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). His deep knowledge of the Qur'an
made even the great companions of
the Prophet resort to him and show
special respect to him, despite the fact
that he was much younger than most
of them (being only 22 at the death of Prophet Muhammad). History tells us that `Abdullah ibn
`Abbas (may Allah be pleased with
him, who is very well known for his
knowledge of matters of the faith,
once saw Zayd ibn Thabit about to
mount his ride. He went up to help him. Zayd said (out of respect to ibn
`Abbas), "Do not bother, O cousin of
the Messenger of Allah." Ibn `Abbas
said, "Thus have we been instructed to
treat our scholars." It is no wonder then that during and
after the Battle of Yamamah in the days
of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, Zayd was
the man chosen for the task of
compiling the Qur'an in a book form,
aided by `Umar ibn Al-Khattab.

During the Battle of Yamamah when a
large number of the companions of
the Prophet (peace and blessings of
Allah be upon him) who knew the
Qur'an by heart were killed, `Umar ibn
Al-Khattab expressed his great worry that some verses of the Qur'an known
to some companions might be
forgotten due to the death of those
companions. So he suggested to Abu
Bakr to have the Qur'an collected and
compiled. Abu Bakr was hesitant in the
beginning, because as he said, "This is
something not done by the Prophet."
However, he was later convinced of
the necessity of the matter, because in
the lifetime of the Prophet there was no need for such an action, since the
source and conveyor of the revelation
was living amongst them. His Assignment The Caliph found that Zayd ibn Thabit
was the man for the job. Thus he
addressed Zayd (may Allah be pleased
with him): "You are a young man who
is wise and trustworthy. And you used
to write the revelation for the Prophet, collect the Qur'an and compile it." Zayd reports, "I swear to God that had
they asked me to move a mountain, it
would have been easier than that task
assigned to me." Upon the compilation of the whole
Book, it was kept with the Caliph Abu
Bakr, then his successor `Umar, who
entrusted it upon his death to his
daughter Hafsah, a wife of Prophet
Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), who was also
known for her knowledge of the
Qur'an besides being one of the few
literate people in the community.

It was Umar r.a who expressed the need to compile the Qur'an and Abu Bakr r,a agreed and then gave the task to Zaid ibn Thabit r.a and Umar r.a was around when this was being done right?

You yourself have have admitted that ibn Masud and Ubay ibn Kab were praised for their "recitation" while Zaid was the best "scribe"
so who should get the task to "write" a full copy? Reciters or the best scribe?

Also the companions on whose shoulders you are resting your claim had no problem with Zaid being given the task. They happily helped him and the aim of all of them was to compile the accurate Qur'an.

The variant reading of some verses that you pointed are also known and you again are the one who have accepted that there are 7 modes(ahruf) to recite Qur'an.

During the last year of the Prophet the Qur'an was revised with Jibrael twice in only one of the ahruf and that has been accepted as the standard.

If Ubay ibn Ka'b had a variant read of a verse. He is not lying or wrong. There were 7 variants taught by the Prophet himself to different companions and they understood that any of it was fine. he however did not claim that the standardized Qur'an has an error, he just sticked to his own personal variation that he learnt from the Prophet.

You are claiming that Qur'an is corrupt because its written in one of the 7 modes and some companions continued to recite it in another mode?

You also try to continuously deflect a simple question,
"if the companions knew that Qur'an has any error/s, would they just shut up? When they all were ready to happily die for Islam?"

nobody claimed that ever and all muslims unanimously accepted the Qur'an.

Only when Islam came into contact with the western world, the orientalists took it as a challenge to discredit Qur'an and recently the hate mongering anti-islamic sites and are trying to do the same and your narrative matches a lot with what is on these sites.

If anyone really wants to know the truth, try finding it using common sense and logic. Not knowledgeable appearing mumble jumble which nobody has time to verify or understand the subject fully without dedicating years of study.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by logical7

 

Does praising an individual make him infallible authority?

I thought that was how a Muslim was supposed to practice Islam; by adhering to the authority of Prophet Muhammad.

Ubay ibn Ka'b and Abdullah ibn Mas'ud weren't simply or merely praised. Prophet Muhammad specifically praised them and made an authoritative command to learn the Qur'an from them.

So now, are you telling me that in Islam, when Muhammad makes proclamation, it is to be ignored in favor of the ruling of his 3rd successor Uthman?

Zaid was a gifted scribe. ibn Mas'ud and ibn Ka'b were gifted Qur'an reciters and experts. But we see Uthman ignore the Qur'an experts proclaimed by Muhammad, in favor of a writing expert. And then we see argument, disagreement, and difference between the "scribe" and the "Qur'an reciters".

 

 

* Zaid ibn Thabit: Expert scribe of Muhammad. Chosen by Abu Bakr and Uthman to compile the written Qur'an.

* Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: Expert reciter of the Qur'an, praised and recommended by Muhammad. Disagreed with Zaid's Qur'an.

* Ubay ibn Ka'b: Expert reciter of the Qur'an, praised and recommended by Muhammad. Disagreed with Zaid's Qur'an.


How can anyone ignore these points or brush them off so easily without ever investigating them or even attempting to ACTUALLY debunk them with equal or stronger source-evidence?

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 1787:

Ubayy b. Ka'b reported: I was in the mosque when a man entered and prayed and recited (the Qur'in) in a style to which I objected. Then another man entered (the mosque) and recited in a style different from that of his companion. When we had finished the prayer, we all went to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said to him: This man recited in a style to which I objected, and the other entered and recited in a style different from that of his companion. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) asked them to recite and so they recited, and the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) expressed approval of their affairs (their modes of recitation). and there occurred In my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saw how I was affected (by a wrong idea), he struck my chest, whereupon I broke into sweating and felt as though I were looking at Allah with fear. He (the Holy Prophet) said to me: Ubayy. a message was sent to me to recite the Qur'an in one dialect, and I replied: Make (things) easy for my people. It was conveyed to me for the second time that it should be recited in two dialects. I again replied to him: Make affairs easy for my people. It was again conveyed to me for the third time to recite in seven dialects And (I was further told): You have got a seeking for every reply that I sent you, which you should seek from Me. I said: O Allah! forgive my people, forgive my people, and I have deferred the third one for the day on which the entire creation will turn to me, including even Ibrahim (peace be upon him) (for intercession).

So Ubay ibn Kab was rebuked for the very narrow mindedness that you are using as seen in another Hadith that you quote.

Also

Book 004, Number 1785: Ibn 'Abbas reported Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) as saying: Gabriel taught me to recite in one style. I replied to him and kept asking him to
give more (styles), till he reached seven modes (of recitation). Ibn Shibab said: It has reached me that these seven styles are essentially one, not differing about what is permitted and what is forbidden.

There goes your claim that Ubay Ibn Kab's variation is the only authentic one!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by maes2
Koran does not say that people should obey God or Mohammad blindly. it is saying that those who believe should be submitted to God truly. those which their wisdom confesses that they have found the truth.

You just contradicted yourself.

Again ... try being a Muslim in a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia or Iran ... and go around asking legitimate questions about Muhammad. Ask for proof that Muhammads claims of heavenly visions were real. (there is no proof). Ask about Muhammads life - ask about him being a thief and murderer. Ask why the Qu'ran contradicts itself and contains historical and scientific errors. See how long you get to live after asking these valid questions.

truth does not need suffocation. I do not ignore everything. but of course you are exaggerating.
there are enough books, sites and research ways. however the seeker of truth does not need insulting others !

do not say crude words to those who call upon other than Allah, lest they use crude words about Allah(God) in revenge without knowledge. as such we have made the actions of each nation seem pleasing. to their lord they shall return, and he will inform them of that they were doing. («Koran 6:108)

more over no one dares questioning Holocaust in EU. of course suffocation is wrong.
if someone just doubt about the number of jews which were killed in Holocaust they will call him anti_semitic.
of course suffocation is wrong.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by maes2
Koran does not say that people should obey God or Mohammad blindly. it is saying that those who believe should be submitted to God truly. those which their wisdom confesses that they have found the truth.

You just contradicted yourself.

Again ... try being a Muslim in a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia or Iran ... and go around asking legitimate questions about Muhammad. Ask for proof that Muhammads claims of heavenly visions were real. (there is no proof). Ask about Muhammads life - ask about him being a thief and murderer. Ask why the Qu'ran contradicts itself and contains historical and scientific errors. See how long you get to live after asking these valid questions.

He didnt only have visions the guy flew on a unicorn when i read that i really had to laugh hysterically. Thats why i find religion so funny you have to suspend belief in the real world.

A very good video that elaborates on the various modes(ahruf) and recitations(Qiraat)
an easy way to get the basics in 15 mins.

reply to post by logical7


Ok so theres 7 versions of the Koran but its the word of god given to Mohammad. Dont you see a slight contradiction or more like a cover up from Mohammad when he realized that there were contradictions? Since obviously the man would not have been offended if it was similar they must have been drastically different with different meaning wouldnt be context would it?

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by logical7

 

Ok so theres 7 versions of the Koran but its the word of god given to Mohammad. Dont you see a slight contradiction or more like a cover up from Mohammad when he realized that there were contradictions? Since obviously the man would not have been offended if it was similar they must have been drastically different with different meaning wouldnt be context would it?

how about you read my reply, the one just before the video i posted.
Read the hadith quoted as external text and you'l know that the differences are not in meaning. Also watch the video before making wishful assumptions/judgements.
Thanks

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by logical7

 

Ok so theres 7 versions of the Koran but its the word of god given to Mohammad. Dont you see a slight contradiction or more like a cover up from Mohammad when he realized that there were contradictions? Since obviously the man would not have been offended if it was similar they must have been drastically different with different meaning wouldnt be context would it?

how about you read my reply, the one just before the video i posted.
Read the hadith quoted as external text and you'l know that the differences are not in meaning. Also watch the video before making wishful assumptions/judgements.
Thanks

Not wishful assumptions at all glad to see you decided my opinions on things.However if they had the same meaning he wouldnt have been offended. See if the bible started out in the beginning god created the earth and the heavens no one would be offended.You have to be mad to be offended. Unless of course he was upset about this being the words from Allah and knew they shouldn't be changed. You do see you cant have it both ways dont you?

reply to post by dragonridr


did you watch the video?

reply to post by logical7


Yes i watched the video and in it he admits there were significant differences. Which would mean that these 7 versions of the Koran cant be directly from god if we allow for interpretation depending on tribe or dialect. So which is it is the Koran an interpretation of gods message or is it the actually words given to the profit Mohammad from god himself? As i stated you cant have it both ways so which is it?

this might be of interest

Adnan Rashid and James White debate the textual transmission of the Quran. Adnan argues that the Quran, unlike the Bible, was transmitted directly from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) very reliably by his disciples. Adnan's view is that every single word of the Quran can be traced back to the Prophet Muhammad. James on the other hand contends that the Quran's textual transmission is not as magnificent as the Muslims claim. He uses a number of sources to make his point. To have an informed view on the textual transmission of the Quran

I thought the American made a fair point that because the christians have many different source documents for their book they have a better chance of working out what the author actually wanted to say because scribes cannot be expected to consistently make good copies of the texts over the centuries. And that many variants of the text allow for more chance of the original meaning getting through to the present

dragonridr
He didnt only have visions the guy flew on a unicorn when i read that i really had to laugh hysterically. Thats why i find religion so funny you have to suspend belief in the real world.

unfortunately, I did not fly.
belief is the effect of wisdom into heart.
for example many people know that a dead person can not annoy them. he can not move. but still there are people who fear from the dead people.
there are people who think that God exists and ..... but they do not believe. belief is so complicated and multilevel. that I can not claim that I am a believer.

but the first step should be pure wisdom not superstitions. so philosophy can be the first step.

Regarding 7 Ahruf

I've already spent several posts and replies earlier in this thread debunking the false claim that today's "7 Qira'at" are the same as Muhammad's "7 Ahruf".

I do not enjoy repeating myself or having the same debate over-and-over due to my opponents inability to acknowledge valid points,.... so for simplicity's sake,.....

• If Muhammad's "7 Ahruf" are the same as today's "7 Qira'at", then explain why there are actually MORE than 7 Qira'at.

There are actually 10 accepted Qira'at,... with each Qira'at containing two separate transmitters. This means there are 20 Qira'at. There are also several more Qira'at that are rejected by the majority.

"7 Ahruf" that Muhammad approved of ARE NOT the "7 Qira'at (20+ Qira'at)" of today.





I do not want to waste my time, so once again for simplicity's sake, here is a quick wiki article:

the Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had begun to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the writing conventions of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Uthman burned the unofficial copies of the Quran. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available throughout the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.

I am not basing my points of argument on Wikipedia. Only referenced it because that piece of info is valid, and I am tired of repeating the same point of debate.

maes2

dragonridr
He didnt only have visions the guy flew on a unicorn when i read that i really had to laugh hysterically. Thats why i find religion so funny you have to suspend belief in the real world.

unfortunately, I did not fly.

belief is the effect of wisdom into heart.
for example many people know that a dead person can not annoy them. he can not move. but still there are people who fear from the dead people.
there are people who think that God exists and ..... but they do not believe. belief is so complicated and multilevel. that I can not claim that I am a believer.

but the first step should be pure wisdom not superstitions. so philosophy can be the first step.

Every man must make his own journeys in life and what they choose to believe. The only problem i have with religion is this when people start using a religion for justification to hurt others. Look whats going on in Syria lots of Innocent people dying all because there are two different interpretations of the same book. To a westerner the difference between Sunni and Shia isnt even noticeable. Both sides are using the Koran as justification for there war.This battle is between Iran and Saudi Arabia using the Koran to control people. And of course Muslims believe what they are told because in truth they are not allowed to question there faith.

My only hope is that some day Muslims will come to the same conclusions the western countries did. You dont fight wars over scriptures. The pope no longer has the power he had in the dark ages to gather groups of armed men to fight his wars. Now im just hoping someday Islam will lose its grip as well so some imam cant decide hes starting a fatwa.

Props and stars to Sahabi for a very extensive, well written, and quite fascinating thread. Very well sourced. Very thoroughly explained.

I myself think that anyone who believes a holy text/doctrine written centuries ago, and that passed through a multitude of hands, is unaltered and "pure", are delusional at best. Hell, look at books written more recently, how many editions they go through. Oral traditions tend to be more suspect. Ever play that game where you sit in a circle of people, one person whispers something to the next, and that person repeats what they heard to the next person, until it passes through the whole circle, and ends up a completely different statement? That's religious texts. That's religion period, in the extent of time.

Every religion claims their texts/dogma as "incorruptible" and infallible. Saying or believing something does not make it true, no matter how hard you may want it to be so. They are words. Written or spoken by someone long dead. That really mean little today.

When I read things from the Bible or Koran, what I see is gibberish. It has no deep, meaningful effect on me, the words and their context are complete and utter nonsense to my ears. Yet people claim these words are so perfect, just hearing them will awe and wow you into converting. Utter nonsense. Someone posted Stairway to Heaven on an earlier page, and I can say, the lyrics to a song written by four British peasants have had a far more profound and spiritual effect on me than the gibberish of Bronze age goat-herders and their offshoots. And certainly the song has a much more positive message than Christianity or Islam ever had. One that does not involve killing gays, subjugating women, waging war against people with different opinions, sacrificing children, slavery, racism, ect.

dragonridr
To a westerner the difference between Sunni and Shia isnt even noticeable.

it is not noticeable not at all. Islam has many sects.

Both sides are using the Koran as justification for there war.This battle is between Iran and Saudi Arabia using the Koran to control people. And of course Muslims believe what they are told because in truth they are not allowed to question there faith.

so what about Israel, western and eastern countries. what about the government of Syria itself. if that was between two countries then people would not say that it might become another world war. It is far more deep.
it is not because of sect. Saudi tribe deceived and then betrayed Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and Hamas in Gaza (they are sunnies). now it is going to fight in Syria for Sunnies ! who believes this !?

My only hope is that some day Muslims will come to the same conclusions the western countries did. You dont fight wars over scriptures. The pope no longer has the power he had in the dark ages to gather groups of armed men to fight his wars. Now im just hoping someday Islam will lose its grip as well so some imam cant decide hes starting a fatwa.

I see. you are some how right. no one wants to be humiliated by corrupted clerics. but they do not want you to know that how people are suppressed in the countries of middle east.
the big problem is the illegitimate corrupted inheritable monarchies. they just follow their own religion. religion of dirty power.
those monarchies spread radicalism in the middle east. and they are suppressing people.
those terrorists are just a minority, but they are supported by regional and foreign countries.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I think if you look into the dead sea scrolls and compare them to todays bible you may be surprised ...We have todays version transmitted over 2000 years so we have a good sample and the dead sea scrolls ...peace

reply to post by Sahabi


If you had watched the video, you wouldn't have posted the reply you did.
YES, there are 7 ahruf that the Prophet taught and the 10 Qiraat got developed later.
How about letting go the styles of recitation(qiraats) and concentrate on ahruf, i would love to learn what you know about them and also how you reach the conclusion to claim that they all are lost!!
A few basics questions for the benefit of your target audience.
What exactly is ahruf(plural) or harf(singular)?
What exactly is different between one mode and other?
Is there a difference in every word of every verse? Or just a few synonymous words difference or/and pronounciation and spelling differences?
What about the hadiths that say that this was asked by the Prophet for the ease of his Ummah(muslim community) as they had varied dialects/pronounciations and used different synonymous words depending on the dialects/area/tribe?