Struggling with the abortion issue.

Life is precious. Handle it with care.
55 million lives have been cut short since Roe V.Wade.

When society disrespects life at any stage just watch society decline.

Regardless of whether or not abortion was made illegal, it would still happen. Except then you would have a black market type deal going on, where they don't really care how far along the baby is.

I mean, would you honestly prefer women getting a coat hanger type thing or having it done professionally with professional opinions given to them so they have the chance to make an educated decision on it?

In this hand I hold the position that abortion should not be illegal, because the state (IMO) does not have the right to impose laws to control the human body.

And this is why you reason falsely - you keep regurgitating every word and thought given to you as knowledge. Those words and thoughts are the basis of your reasoning. Falsehoods in produces falsehoods out. The state maintains, like the ten commandments, Do Not Murder. Jesus Christ commands you to love your brother with love doing no harm.

The state already declares Thou Shalt Not Murder. It sets the penalty here on earth. Therefore, all arguments in favour of abortion centre on defining the practice as not murder. Every regurgitated argument has been placed in our brains - its not life, it's not human, it's a clump of cells, it has no soul etc etc etc - and thus we reason from those implanted beliefs. When one accepts those words as facts, one draws the conclusion that it is not murder. This is how abortion was legalised in a country that still upholds Thou Shalt Not Murder. It's hypocrisy and just what the Pharisees did - abiding by the letter of the law yet breaking the spirit of the law. All they did was redefine what constitutes life, and thus, a helpless unborn infant is stripped of every right to life and therefore it's killing is deemed not murder.

You are confused simply because you will not define life. Once you know that an unborn baby is life, you will know exactly what abortion is - murder, the deliberate killing of another human life. Up until that point, your brain continues to reason with men's knowledge placed in your head, which are merely excuses used to justify wholesale murder as not murder.

Christ called the Pharisees on it. He repeatedly asked His disciples why they reasoned and continually reminded them of the yeast which permeated their minds. You can be forever learning and yet never come to the truth. The truth is simple: an unborn baby is a baby human. When you don't want that baby human, you reason thusly; it's just a clump of cells, it is a parasite, I'll earn more money without it, it's an inconvenience, it's not really murder....at all other times, that baby remains what it always has been - a baby human life. The baby never changed since the beginning of time -

our thoughts about it did.

Where did all those thoughts come from? Christ? Certainly not.
So where? Men. Men who own mass media. Everything that you reason with was given to you by men. It was endlessly drilled into your mind. But yet, have your prayed and asked the Truth to show you His Truth regarding the matter? He'll take you to the bottom-line of the entire argument and show you that an unborn baby is life. Once that happens, you have no more debate and you see that our knowledge bank is but a collection of EXCUSES given to us for the sole purpose of drawing false conclusions.

The unborn baby never changed. Our thoughts about it were what was redefined.

If a woman really wants an abortion, she is going to do it whether it is legal or not. So instead of returning to the back street clinic, it needs to remain legal for the safety of all involved. Maybe its more about education than creating new laws.

I can't abide forcing someone to do something to their own body. Whether it be abortion, birth, euthanasia of the terminally ill or forcing them to die painfully, or even taking or abstaining from drugs... it's their choice and forcing someone to do anything to their own body is wrong.

I believe we should trust the person to do what's right for them and mind our own business, unless asked.

It's rather easy, for me anyway. The one thing a person should have control over is their body... period.

My answer would have to be just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

I'm all for it being Woman's choice, it is there body after all, however that also means that they have to live with the decision!

Short of the person considering an abortion being a complete Junkie, severely mentally ill or the chance of passing along some type of hereditary condition I would have to say im not one for abortions.

That's just my perspective as a Man, in the end its your decision!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
We live in a society that has had its opinion severely controlled. We believe that a woman's right to not have any self control of her rutting practices should be held above taking a life that had no say about being in her body, that at the point of choosing to rut has also chosen tot take the chance of gaining another being in her body.


Its all so simple...

What about a mans self control in his 'rutting'?? He is, or should be well aware

that there are failures in all contraception sometimes (certain medications can effect oral

contraceptives too) And no woman can 'rut' on her own!!!


Isn't a man always complicit in every act of female 'rutting'??


I would wager a bet that all men at some time 'in the heat of passion' have convinced

the woman that he will be there for her if things go wrong???

(ooooh! listen carefully I think I can hear all the denials no never, not me! )


Yes a woman is taking responsibility for her body and her own actions when she has an

abortion, Does anyone seriously think its an easy decision for a woman?? And to all

those bleeding hearted men out there who say they have no say in her decision, she has

probably by now worked out that they aren't going to be around for the 'long haul'

At this point I would like to point out there are always the exception to the rule, and

for those exceptions This situation would probably not arise..

reply to post by Openeye


I am kind of an old timer. In the 1950's my mother tried aborting 3 of her pregnancies. One she succeeded at by having her drunken husband beat her stomach, at 8 months, til she lost the boy in the toilet. With the other two, she drank drano and lye. Both babies lived, but had problems their whole lives, and mother ultimately died of cancer and guilt. Sometimes, the answers are just not one way or the other. I have concluded at 62, gave life to three babies, that I would rather have a life surgically removed than tortured. Women will ALWAYS find a way to rid their bodies of an unwanted baby.

reply to post by Basilis

Regardless of whether or not abortion was made illegal, it would still happen. Except then you would have a black market type deal going on, where they don't really care how far along the baby is.

I mean, would you honestly prefer women getting a coat hanger type thing or having it done professionally with professional opinions given to them so they have the chance to make an educated decision on it?

Allow me to change a few words (in bold), reword it a bit and see if your argument holds water.

"Regardless of whether or not murder was made illegal, it would still happen. Except then you would have a black market type deal going on, where they don't really care how or where its done.

I mean, would you honestly prefer sloppy amateur murder or having it done cleanly and professionally?"

Sounds worse, doesn't it? Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean a civilized society must accept and facilitate it.

reply to post by seabag






You could apply that same argument to euthanasia and the old and infirm?

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by seabag

 

You could apply that same argument to euthanasia and the old and infirm?

You could; the difference being euthanasia is often a personal choice (like suicide) or made when life has basically already ended (on life support). I see a difference between euthanasia (suicide) and taking a life that has yet to be fulfilled (abortion/murder).

reply to post by Openeye


Are you a woman? If so then abortion is up to you, it is your body. If you aren't a woman, then stop talking about it, men shouldn't regulate the lives of others.

reply to post by seabag





Except for the fact that a legal abortion is only allowed when the fetus is not viable

outside the woman's womb.

Having recently had elderly relatives die, it appears to me there is an

undercover/underhand system being practiced on the infirm and elderly (not

as you say on life support) where starvation and dehydration results in death on a

human being who's life is still viable.

So although euthanasia is not legal I think a way is being found around it!

There is nothing to struggle with. If you're a woman, you can choose to have an abortion. If you are against it, you can choose to not participate in abortion. If you're a man, you have no say in the subject, whatsoever. I'm a vegan, and I find the consumption of meat from a slaughterhouse unethical and disgusting; I opt out of consuming food derived from animals. Abortion is very much the same concept. If you don't like abortions, don't get one; if you can't get one, you don't have to worry about getting one.

Look, abortion, like veganism, is a choice; it shouldn't be made law.

If people are so upset over abortion, why don't they offer to raise the unwanting mother's potential child? Oh, right, because nobody actually cares that much, they just want to rack up brownie points with bigbird, god, or whatever the hell they believe in.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
ETA .. the heart of the baby starts beating 22 days after conception.

edit on 8/16/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

And can continue on even after brain death occurs through machines
you can have a heart going for hundreds of years perhaps with machines.

Heart is not a human, heart is a heart.

Dear ops:
This is my simple and quite easy to follow view on Abortion.

What defines us as a human, as a person.
Is it our toes? naa..our heart? naa..it is our thoughts, our brain activity, our memories.

No brain, no person. quite simple really.

So, before brain activity starts, it is a growth (with potential of course, but then again, every sperm has potential). After brain activity starts, its not abortion, it is killing a person and should only occur when the physical health of the mother is in jeopardy.

So, if you accept this general understanding of consciousness, then you can do a bit of research as to when brain activity first starts in a fetus (3-5 months generally speaking. some say 5, but at the 3rd month, the central nervous system starts developing, and that to me is a good cut off date of decision)

Science can help you here. dismiss the emotional arguments and focus completely on what makes a person a person...then you may have your answer quite easily.

Originally posted by eletheia
Having recently had elderly relatives die, it appears to me there is an

undercover/underhand system being practiced on the infirm and elderly (not

as you say on life support) where starvation and dehydration results in death on a

human being who's life is still viable.

So although euthanasia is not legal I think a way is being found around it!

My Vet's father just got taken off machines. brain is pretty much dead, but he didn't die. still have heart functions and ability to breathe.
Since there is no quick shot to administer, they now have to wait for him to dehydrate and die that way. it tore her apart.
Its a mystery why there is no assisted ending under some circumstances.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
Life is precious. Handle it with care.
55 million lives have been cut short since Roe V.Wade.

When society disrespects life at any stage just watch society decline.

Life is not precious. Dad owned a pest control company and made it his job to extinguish life on a huge scale. ants, roaches, etc.

People are precious, this I agree with.

What is the difference between a person and a ant, besides of course shape.

What I am going to write may sound harsh to some, but the whole issue with the apparent 'delicacy' of the whole abortion matter is down to only one thing, and that is the belief that human beings are somehow 'special'.

I read everywhere that ending an embryo's heartbeat is cruel and that we murder human beings etc. To be honest, humans are no more and no less important than any mammals and a few other beings.
We of course would think we are because we are humans ourselves. However Nature herself has no care for each individual living thing. It doesn't matter if individuals make it or not. The global aim is to keep on being fertile and somehow make enough of each species to survive. If the species doesn't survive, then tough, it wasn't adapted enough.

In nature, abortion is often used by animals. For example deer can tell if a winter is going to be harsh or mild. If they are pregnant and a harsh winter may be on the line, they abort by eating specific herbs which cause contractions.
The deer isn't upset about this and frankly nobody else is either. It knows that it will have viable offspring next year, which will have a far better chance of survival.

There are other examples but I am a little in a rush and can't quite do as much research right now.

I would go as far as to say an baby elephant is far more important than a human, considering its gestation time is so much longer. We don't value rats [well I do] because their gestation time is short and we associate its length with importance.

There are far too many humans on this Earth, there are not enough Elephants. Thus it is to me far worse to kill an Elephant mother with baby for example than a few human cells which will not ever have had any chance to even know that they 'almost' existed.

I am open to reincarnation. If it was true, than the worst thing that could happen is that the soul which could have gone into one body, will end up in another. No big deal.

If there are no souls or anything, then all we are talking about are a few cells.

Before contraception was as easy as today humans went as far as having the child and then killing it if they did not have enough resources. Those were accepted practices in history. Wasting resources on an offspring with a high chance of dying early is just illogical Also small children died quite regularly of natural means such as diseases or hypothermia etc.
Therefore people made more of them.

Us humans are only question abortion based on man-made ethics and concerns.
Women have babies when we can't afford them or we have a hereditary disease, or we have them when our partners are unreliable or we are on drugs or sick. People have babies in all kinds of circumstances all the time.
That doesn't mean the babies will all live good lives. Quite the contrary. So in certain circumstances I not only believe, but KNOW that abortion is the kinder option.

Some may not think so but that is only because of some inexplicable guilt and the idea that humans are somehow different from all other life here on Earth.

I can only say one thing. If you are happy with abortion, then you have nothing to feel guilty about. If you don't like it, don't get pregnant when you shouldn't. It's that easy.

reply to post by Openeye


How can the state not have laws that control the human body?
I mean, all of them control the human body.
Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't cross the street in front of traffic. Those are all about controlling human beings.
Do you mean you don't think the state should control what a person does to their own body?
If that's what you mean, then remember that an unborn child has its own DNA, which sets it apart from the mother and father.