Document from Einstein and Oppenheimer on Aliens and UFOs

reply to post by skyblueworld


S & F. I'm going to check this out right now. At the very least, it should no doubt make for interesting speculation along the lines of an alternate history. If it disinfo, remember the best always contains nuggets of real info as spice to give things the flavor of verisimilitude.

Since you have already discussed tv commercials on this thread, take a look at this one from 2005:

youtu.be...

What do you think?

On second thought, I am pretty sure both Einstein and Oppenheimer knew how to spell celestial. The author did not.

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by skyblueworld

 

It's a nice story but aren't the Majestic documents considered by most to be a hoax and most probably disinformation from TPTB ?

That's what I understood it to be.. I don't consider it to be disinformation but rather a hoax.. people tasked with authenticating the documents found a huge number of mistakes.. the biggest for me was the fact that the font used in the documents wasn't around at the time the documents were supposedly created.

Below are a number of arguments against the authenticity of various MJ-12 documents:


1. The FBI investigated the matter, and quickly formed doubts as to the documents' authenticity. FBI personnel contacted the U.S. Air Force, asking if MJ-12 had ever existed. The Air Force reported that no such committee had ever been authorized, and had never been formed. The FBI presently declares that "The investigation was closed after it was learned that the document was completely bogus."

2. The documents are of suspicious provenance. Shandera and Good both claimed to have received documents from anonymous senders, and most subsequent MJ-12 documents have surfaced under equally questionable circumstances.

3. Though Good initially thought the documents were genuine, he has since, according to Philip Klass, expressed "suspicions about the new ... documents" due to "some factual anomalies in their content."

4. UFO researcher Jerome Clark discusses the MJ-12 documents in the "Hoaxes" section of his The UFO Book, and strongly favors a hoax interpretation. He notes that as of 1998, a mere "handful" of ufologists support the documents' authenticity.

5. Scientific forensic linguistic testing was applied to select Majestic Documents in 2007 by Dr. Carol Chaski and evidence was found to disprove attributed authorship. Dr. Chaski is the founder of The Institute for Linguistic Evidence (ILE), a research organization that validates reliable document authentication techniques and provides assistance to investigators and attorneys in criminal and civil trials whenever the authorship of any document is questioned or suspicious.."

6. The format of the Majestic-12 Documents, with justification and different fonts and type-sizes, generates some doubts: the first typewriter with IBM typeballs (selector compensator), and with it replaceable fonts, was the IBM 72, built from 1961 — and only the successors of this machine also had the memory necessary for justification.

7. Page 11 of the Special Operations Manual SOM1-01 refers to "Area 51 S4", which is the same nomenclature and location referenced by R. Lazar 35 years later in 1989. Lazar's unproven background and claims shouldn't have any credibility in this discussion.

8. The typewriter used for the Truman letter was a Smith Corona model which did not exist until 1962 — fifteen years after the document was allegedly written. The typewriter ribbon was worn and the keys were dirty. Truman documents from the period which are known to be authentic used fresh ribbons and clean keys.

There is lots more on this, and almost all of the references have citations

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ObservingYou

Originally posted by SloAnPainful
reply to post by littled16

 

Hey Littled.

What "evidence" is there?

As far as I know, there isn't any evidence of nuclear development in any ancient culture/s. To say that there was would be far fetched at best.

Does that mean there wasn't? No. It's still possible, there just no evidence. Personal opinion and facts are different.

-SAP-

How about lack of evidence? I.E Missing Civilisations and land masses?

More often than not, you can tell a lot from the MISSING info.

What civilizations and land masses are "missing?"

Harte

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
Concerning the existence of MJ-12:

quote from wiki

The FBI quickly formed doubts as to the documents' authenticity. FBI personnel contacted the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (counterintelligence), asking if MJ-12 had ever existed. AFOSI claimed that no such committee had ever been authorized or formed, and that the documents were “bogus.” The FBI adopted the AFOSI opinion and declared the MJ-12 documents to be "completely bogus.

So this is how you do investigations...(I find it really funny).

You ask the USAF, concerning some super duper secret committee...that if exists is...again "top top top secret"...and even if exists...you wouldn't really get confirmation of it...for the obvious reason it being a secret group.

They said no...and you adopt it as bogus.

Brilliant.

I love it.

Obviously, since all those alphabet agencies have soooo much credit, I'm inclined to believe anything they say. It's for my own benefit anyway. Any secrecy they practice...is strictly because I'm stupid and they look after me.

Oh yeah...I do believe in God, but I don't believe that people in power would lie to me...no way. God would punish them.

That wikipedia article contains FAR more information about why those documents are believed to be fake ( and almost certainly are ) .. you cherry picked that one bit .. you also left out that the FBI investigated them a second time later on.

There's a slew of other problems with the documents as well as the truman documents that go with it .. such as the truman document being created on a typewriter that didn't even exist in truman's time.. it came out 15 years later.

Others have also investigated those documents over the years and declared them as fake for many reasons.. very few people in the UFO community still believe these documents are legit.. they are pretty widely accepted as a hoax.

So you just regurgitated the MJ12 documents like we all known for years, to be honest I didnt even read the ramblings here bcus I knew it was a troll post. Nice!

reply to post by skyblueworld

reply to post by littled16


I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no credible evidence whatsoever that nuclear weapons were used in the ancient past. Anyone who says differently is engaging in wishful and delusional thinking. It's just that simple.

Read at 1:49

"And now to the final question of whether the presence of celestial astroplanes in our atmosphere is a direct result of our testing atomic weapons? The presence of unidentified space craft flying in our atmosphere (and possibly maintaining orbits around our planet) is now, however, accepted by our military."

Fun stuff

reply to post by jaffo


Well tell that to oppenheimer then (If it was possible). Because im sure he knew a hell of a lot more than you, I or anyone else on this forum about it!

reply to post by SloAnPainful

Personal opinion and facts are different.

Not necessarily - it could just be that the scientific signs of the facts are no longer fully evident due to the passage of time & the interference of external agencies - thereby lending weight, in the argument that some ancient culture had the tech, to the person/group whose interest is in proving the negative.

I have my personal opinions based on a combination of facts, correspondences & intuition.

- A purely reductionist view can too easily walk into a well-laid trap.
- A purely fanciful view too easily floats off into the ether.

Observation of the correspondences between variables & vectors of information surrounding the situation being discussed can allow you to tread (with care) the 'middle ground'. As in, allow you to come to some reasonable personal conclusions which help you to balance the bigger picture in your own view of Reality. What that all will mean in the long-term of a single life and beyond, only the passage of Time can tell.

reply to post by skyblueworld


It's interesting that these rather vague speculations from the world's 'leading minds' always seem to avoid or exclude the implications of extra-terrestrial spirituality. If intelligent aliens exist, then surely they too must have religions/cults/spirituality just like we do. And our spirituality is a massive element of our behavioral chemistry.

We massacre each other in the name of all kinds of weird deities and theological superstitions. And we also perform wonderful acts of charity and sacrifice in the name of those same strange institutions & motivations. If we assume aliens exist, would they too share our spiritual dysfunctions? Or is our confusion & darkness an existential crisis exclusive only to Earth? If so, then why? And if not, then is it still possible that extra-terrestrials who have mastered the 'impossible' feat of interstellar space travel might be more advanced than us spiritually as well as technologically? Look at our science - every step we take towards understanding our universe & co-created reality, the more we learn how connected we are. Have space-faring alien cultures solved the mysteries of space-time? Do they know definitively what their relationship is to God/Source? Are they 'enlightened', so to speak? And if that were the case, then would they be of a higher moral standard to us? I wonder how this type of civilization would approach our existence. With care and respect and love, or with negligence and ignorance and fear?

Considering the fact that cultures of violence & intolerance more often than not obliterate themselves in the early stages of their civilized infancy, then would an alien race of violent invaders even make it to Earth? And if they did, would their self-destructive war-torn society still possess the health & solidarity & the manpower/equipment required to effectively conquer our people without risking their own annihilation and/or the collateral destruction of whatever resources we possess that they might covet? We are not an easy people to openly oppress, even for advanced extra-terrestrials of superior scientific might.

That is, of course, unless the slavery is ingeniously disguised as a 'career' or an 'employment' opportunity, of course. (No, I'm not a communist and I'm not suggesting work & labour is slavery. I'm suggesting that forced labour for undesirable wages is hardly freedom).

Indeed, due to our apathy and socially-conditioned complacency we may be quite easily manipulated, but not very easily oppressed. So therefore, the idea of alien invasion seems to me highly improbable (although certainly not impossible), whereas the probability of encountering a benevolent race of extra-terrestrials seems far more likely to my (semi) rational mind. Then again, I suppose it's safe to assume that if malevolent ETs have mastered space travel (which we think to be impossible), then perhaps they possess certain tools or skills that we are unable to even conceive of yet such as global mind-control, or biological weapons designed to kill us off without harming the natural environment etc. We haven't a clue as to what surprises might await us if we were to become victims of an ET takeover. It really is down the rabbit-hole with this fascinating subject! I love to think about these things.


So in short, (I believe) that speculating about the implications of celestial being's rights within our unenlightened human international law is ridiculous. The fact that the government bothered to research these implications at all is a stark indication of the level of dissociation these people had from logical theoretical reason regarding the issue of alien contact, as well as the heavily arrogant & ignorant attitude definitive of the 19th century of apparently even our best theoretical geniuses (assuming this document is legitimate, which is of course unlikely in & of itself not that it really matters now).

We don't delve deeply enough into the possibilities of our infinite universe when we address these questions. We're the equivalent of a flat-earth society attempting to make sense of the heavens. Until we understand our place properly in the cosmos, then we will never be able to accept or even comprehend the existence of extra-terrestrial life. We don't even understand our own existence, or how to communicate with our own neighbours, let alone visitors from outer space.

So in my opinion? Aliens are real, and they've found us, but they're keeping their distance (wouldn't you?). They are powerful enough to traverse the cosmos, so surely they're powerful enough to develop a solution to their potential woes without needing to infringe upon our evolution. They don't need our planet, or us, for anything, besides maybe cultural trade & socialization. But they're so advanced technologically, culturally & spiritually that they are adhering to a moralistic policy of non-intervention in the interest of allowing humanity to develop its own legs. If all children were given the technology or science needed to walk without ever learning the value of their own legs, then what would be the point of being born with a human body at all?

That's my 10c, for what it's worth

reply to post by skyblueworld


I was just thinking I wonder if this had been posted and sure enough front page of ATS. I would give you 2 stars. It's pleasing to know that the ATS community is on top of their game. I would like to add a tidbit to all of this. Just today the CIA has come out and finally admitted & acknowledged that there is a top secret area 51 facility, but still won't say what's going on there. It's funny it took them this long to admit to the obvious. Then here you have this top secret 6 page document surfaces with the two top scientists in the world at the time, both together writing a document and endorsing it all dated in the same year 1947 as the Roswell incident. All this happening on the same day the CIA admits Area 51?? This cannot be just a coincidence.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


Right the FBI are low level agencies just like ATF, DEA etc. Anyone thinking the US Air Force intelligence or CIA or NSA or DOD is going to give them secret information is dreaming. The FBI is nothing more than a lapdog with no teeth. Which is pathetic you figure the FBI could find out what's going with all these scandals on a FEDERAL level. hence the Federal Bureau Investigations. They investigate squat piss. It's all just a big joke circus act. If they did do anything about it Obama and all the rest of the clowns in office would be in jail right now.

The prose in that document reads like it was written by a 12 year old. It sounds horribly fake.

reply to post by TheAnarchist


Not sure why there's a need for a civilization to have a religion but if they had one I'd assume it were the Jehovah's Witness because I'd leave it to only them to travel across the galaxy going planet to planet to talk about their lord and savior.

reply to post by ATSZOMBIE


"all knew"? troll post? very sad comment to be fair, but you felt the need to comment anyway. You trolling too then?

Originally posted by TheDoctor46
reply to post by jaffo

 

Well tell that to oppenheimer then (If it was possible). Because im sure he knew a hell of a lot more than you, I or anyone else on this forum about it!

This is a classic example of an appeal to authority.

Exactly the sort of thing people such as yourself decry when it involves any argument containing actual theories of what you might call "mainstream science."

BTW, this sort of faulty thinking tends to be somewhat more justified if the authority is actually an authority on the subject. Will you show us now that Oppenheimer was an authority on the archaeology of the Indian Subcontinent?

If the Oppenheimer quote was actually uttered by Oppenheimer - and last I checked, this is questionable - it only gives us an indication of what Oppenheimer may have held as a speculative possibility and says nothing at all about any knowledge Oppenheimer may have had on the topic, outside of his knowledge of certain descriptions from the Vedas which anyone can read online these days and anyone (with a critical thought process) can plainly see are wide open to various interpretations.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Cry to authority? Nay sir, Just an expert in his field who believed others where there before him. And like i said, He knew a damned site more than you or i like it or not.

reply to post by TheDoctor46


Robert Oppenheimer was a physicist who spent nearly his entire life deeply entrenched in researching the world of physics and the development of nuclear technology, astronomy and theoretical physics.

If he had an opinion on matters related to ancient history, anthropology or archaeology, it would have been interesting, but relevant insofar as he was a notable person, but not because he had any particular insight or claim as a credentialed scholar on anything outside of his field.

One's mastery of physics does not seep over into, for example, mastery of South American songbird identification. Neither does it seep over into historical analysis. That doesn't preclude him or anyone else from having an opinion or even thoughtful hypotheses, but that doesn't distinguish them as relevant either.