Black Hole Question

reply to post by Erno86

dragonridr is of course correct, but I'm still curious to know how you can state with such authority that aliens have been visiting us since the 1940s. How do you know this for sure, and why do you think they haven't been visiting us before the 1940s? Perhaps they only developed the necessary technology 75 years ago?

Yes, the warping of space or at least partial folding of space would be something pretty stark. Creating something to warp space around an object even fractionally like a black hole or a neutron star would have external consequences. While space is a as close as to vacuum as we can get (no we cannot create space like vacuum on the Earth), warping space and traveling at highly relativitist velocities would cause any charged particles in the vacuum to accelerate around the warp field, rapid acceleration and deceleration would cause some pretty interesting radiation signatures.

Might be a resolution limit on your current night sky x-ray/gamma/radio observatories but if said craft existed we would very likely observe faint tracks of them as they move around.

Same for the whole wormhole jump mechanism that is a sci-fi favourite. You create something that has potential for accelerating charged particles and imparting enormous amounts of energy on the surroundings.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by Erno86
My deduction: Since alien starships have peaceably invaded our planet --- since at least the 1940's --- they would have to have the technological wherewithal to build and pilot a starship that is capable of superluminal speeds. With my speculation: That the stardrive of said alien starship...would have the properties and substance of a black hole which is needed to attract photons, in order to propel the starship into the superluminal realm.


Cheers,

Erno

There is no drive that can be created to go faster then light the universe wont allow it. the only hope would be to warp space lessening the distance you need to travel.Now there may be aliens that learned how but we would see them coming. We would have detected the warping of space time much as we have to see black holes.So more then likely they arent here sorry,

It is most likely that the universe would allow a starship to travel faster than light speeds if the starcraft was surrounded by a magnetic shield. The only power in the universe that could possibly create such a magnetic deflection shield, would have similar properties and magnetic effects of a natural or manmade black hole.

I'm sorry....but you're going to have to try too grasp the reality, that these alien starships have been visiting our planet --- not only from my own visual eyewitness experiences ---- but from other's as well. Warped space travel might work on a small scale....but IMO, a top of the line starship will have to travel thru space like a knife cutting warm Normandy butter.

Cheers,

Erno

Originally posted by Erno86

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by Erno86
My deduction: Since alien starships have peaceably invaded our planet --- since at least the 1940's --- they would have to have the technological wherewithal to build and pilot a starship that is capable of superluminal speeds. With my speculation: That the stardrive of said alien starship...would have the properties and substance of a black hole which is needed to attract photons, in order to propel the starship into the superluminal realm.


Cheers,

Erno

There is no drive that can be created to go faster then light the universe wont allow it. the only hope would be to warp space lessening the distance you need to travel.Now there may be aliens that learned how but we would see them coming. We would have detected the warping of space time much as we have to see black holes.So more then likely they arent here sorry,

It is most likely that the universe would allow a starship to travel faster than light speeds if the starcraft was surrounded by a magnetic shield. The only power in the universe that could possibly create such a magnetic deflection shield, would have similar properties and magnetic effects of a natural or manmade black hole.

I'm sorry....but you're going to have to try too grasp the reality, that these alien starships have been visiting our planet --- not only from my own visual eyewitness experiences ---- but from other's as well. Warped space travel might work on a small scale....but IMO, a top of the line starship will have to travel thru space like a knife cutting warm Normandy butter.

Cheers,

Erno

edit on 16-8-2013 by Erno86 because: grammar

it is far more likely they would be from earth. But i can guarantee there not visiting from other planets.Take this for whats its worth but maybe if they do exist they arent aliens at all.

Originally posted by Erno86

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by Erno86
My deduction: Since alien starships have peaceably invaded our planet --- since at least the 1940's --- they would have to have the technological wherewithal to build and pilot a starship that is capable of superluminal speeds. With my speculation: That the stardrive of said alien starship...would have the properties and substance of a black hole which is needed to attract photons, in order to propel the starship into the superluminal realm.


Cheers,

Erno

There is no drive that can be created to go faster then light the universe wont allow it. the only hope would be to warp space lessening the distance you need to travel.Now there may be aliens that learned how but we would see them coming. We would have detected the warping of space time much as we have to see black holes.So more then likely they arent here sorry,

It is most likely that the universe would allow a starship to travel faster than light speeds if the starcraft was surrounded by a magnetic shield. The only power in the universe that could possibly create such a magnetic deflection shield, would have similar properties and magnetic effects of a natural or manmade black hole.

I'm sorry....but you're going to have to try too grasp the reality, that these alien starships have been visiting our planet --- not only from my own visual eyewitness experiences ---- but from other's as well. Warped space travel might work on a small scale....but IMO, a top of the line starship will have to travel thru space like a knife cutting warm Normandy butter.

Cheers,

Erno

edit on 16-8-2013 by Erno86 because: grammar

it is far more likely they would be from earth. But i can guarantee there not visiting from other planets.Take this for whats its worth but maybe if they do exist they arent aliens at all.

I have never seen any credible evidence for such things. Everything I have ever had presented to me I found to be about as reliable as a broken motor.

With the advent of digital cameras in everyones back pocket and the amount and avaliability of photographic and video equipment, not a single picture of one of these crafts has ever come to light that made me go "wow yes"

So i do not certainly have to accept that such craft exist man made or of alien origin.

Originally posted by ErosA433
I have never seen any credible evidence for such things. Everything I have ever had presented to me I found to be about as reliable as a broken motor.

With the advent of digital cameras in everyones back pocket and the amount and avaliability of photographic and video equipment, not a single picture of one of these crafts has ever come to light that made me go "wow yes"

So i do not certainly have to accept that such craft exist man made or of alien origin.

Never really thought of that but true everyone now can take video or pictures instantly yet we dont see anything other then a shacky video shot on some piece of crap video camera from the 80s.

Originally posted by spartacus699

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by spartacus699
what's beyond the event horizon?

The heaviest, most dense and most heat stable elements in our galaxy... and everything else that falls in is just...poof...gone, converted...hawkings radiation.

That's my guess... although I don't know what it would be called specifically.

thats' thinking on such a physical level. ... Hawkings it figures. What it might actually be is some kind of spiritual portal where the 3rd dimention intersects with the 4th

Nobody ever considers the duality side of this, good/bad light/dark +/-, think black hole white dwarf like an electrical circuit, positive out one negative in the other, look at a picture of a Yin and Yang, what does it look like?

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Originally posted by spartacus699

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by spartacus699
what's beyond the event horizon?

The heaviest, most dense and most heat stable elements in our galaxy... and everything else that falls in is just...poof...gone, converted...hawkings radiation.

That's my guess... although I don't know what it would be called specifically.

thats' thinking on such a physical level. ... Hawkings it figures. What it might actually be is some kind of spiritual portal where the 3rd dimention intersects with the 4th

Nobody ever considers the duality side of this, good/bad light/dark +/-, think black hole white dwarf like an electrical circuit, positive out one negative in the other, look at a picture of a Yin and Yang, what does it look like?

White dwarfs and black holes have nothing to do with one another. A white dwarf is a star that collapsed that wasnt big enough to become a black hole.Good example is Sirius B that star no longer undergoes a fusion reaction causing it to compress becoming very dense. Just so you know there is a limit on size about 1.4 times the mass of sol our sun. In fact our sun will become a white dwarf it will have the mass of about half our sun but it will be the size of the earth.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Originally posted by spartacus699

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by spartacus699
what's beyond the event horizon?

The heaviest, most dense and most heat stable elements in our galaxy... and everything else that falls in is just...poof...gone, converted...hawkings radiation.

That's my guess... although I don't know what it would be called specifically.

thats' thinking on such a physical level. ... Hawkings it figures. What it might actually be is some kind of spiritual portal where the 3rd dimention intersects with the 4th

Nobody ever considers the duality side of this, good/bad light/dark +/-, think black hole white dwarf like an electrical circuit, positive out one negative in the other, look at a picture of a Yin and Yang, what does it look like?

White dwarfs and black holes have nothing to do with one another. A white dwarf is a star that collapsed that wasnt big enough to become a black hole.Good example is Sirius B that star no longer undergoes a fusion reaction causing it to compress becoming very dense. Just so you know there is a limit on size about 1.4 times the mass of sol our sun. In fact our sun will become a white dwarf it will have the mass of about half our sun but it will be the size of the earth.

I know what main stream science says about them. Light and particles come out of a white dwarf no? And a black hole sucks all that stuff to it's surface no? Everything having an opposite is what I'm saying really that far off? If we did indeed live in an electric universe would it not make perfect sense looking at an electric circuit? Energy comes in one side and out the other!

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Originally posted by spartacus699

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by spartacus699
what's beyond the event horizon?

The heaviest, most dense and most heat stable elements in our galaxy... and everything else that falls in is just...poof...gone, converted...hawkings radiation.

That's my guess... although I don't know what it would be called specifically.

thats' thinking on such a physical level. ... Hawkings it figures. What it might actually be is some kind of spiritual portal where the 3rd dimention intersects with the 4th

Nobody ever considers the duality side of this, good/bad light/dark +/-, think black hole white dwarf like an electrical circuit, positive out one negative in the other, look at a picture of a Yin and Yang, what does it look like?

White dwarfs and black holes have nothing to do with one another. A white dwarf is a star that collapsed that wasnt big enough to become a black hole.Good example is Sirius B that star no longer undergoes a fusion reaction causing it to compress becoming very dense. Just so you know there is a limit on size about 1.4 times the mass of sol our sun. In fact our sun will become a white dwarf it will have the mass of about half our sun but it will be the size of the earth.

I know what main stream science says about them. Light and particles come out of a white dwarf no? And a black hole sucks all that stuff to it's surface no? Everything having an opposite is what I'm saying really that far off? If we did indeed live in an electric universe would it not make perfect sense looking at an electric circuit? Energy comes in one side and out the other!

White dwarfs have less energy then our sun no where near the amount a black hole takes in. Eventually they will become a black dwarf. Just a cold dead chunk of matter. The longer you go the colder it gets until eventually you wont see it at all. Granted this will take 100s of billions of years. But you are way off on what a white dwarf is. As i said they dont even have the output of our sun. As far as electric universe that's a failed idea from the 70s we have learned alot since then.

There is nothing in the universe that we found that breaks the laws of physics and that is what would happen if there was a point just pouring out energy without the mass. Goes right back to E=MC2. Black holes are just gravity wells no different then a star. If our sun was a black hole with the same mass planets would continue along there paths the only difference would be no light.

reply to post by 1nf1del

I know what main stream science says about them. Light and particles come out of a white dwarf no? And a black hole sucks all that stuff to it's surface no? Everything having an opposite is what I'm saying really that far off? If we did indeed live in an electric universe would it not make perfect sense looking at an electric circuit? Energy comes in one side and out the other!

The 'principle' on which you base this is not a scientific one. The closest science comes to it is the concept of a system in dynamic equilibrium, which is not universally applicable. Light and particles, as you put it, come out of all stars, not just white dwarves. In fact, white dwarves are very faint stars, emitting very little light. If anything is the 'opposite' of a black hole in that sense, it's a Wolf-Rayet star.

Everything does not have an opposite. What is the opposite of mass? What is the opposite of number? What is the opposite of a minute?

Finally, we don't live in an 'electric universe' – whatever that means. Electricity and electromagnetism are only two of the many forms that energy can take in our universe.

I was looking for free thinkers who understand the concept of electric universe to discuss this with, apparently there are none here, good day!

Originally posted by 1nf1del
I was looking for free thinkers who understand the concept of electric universe to discuss this with, apparently there are none here, good day!

edit on 18-8-2013 by 1nf1del because: (no reason given)

Oh i understand the theory just telling you its wrong and why. Look people latch on to it because its easy for them to understand i get it. But the universes driving force is gravity electricity only plays a small role in plasma physics. The sun uses a fusion reaction not an electrical current.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by 1nf1del
I was looking for free thinkers who understand the concept of electric universe to discuss this with, apparently there are none here, good day!

edit on 18-8-2013 by 1nf1del because: (no reason given)

Oh i understand the theory just telling you its wrong and why. Look people latch on to it because its easy for them to understand i get it. But the universes driving force is gravity electricity only plays a small role in plasma physics. The sun uses a fusion reaction not an electrical current.

LOL very dismissive but probably correct.

Take heart electrical Universe proponents as Superfluid Vacuum Theory en.wikipedia.org... provides a much more likely answer and incorporates your intuitive approach to energy dynamics.

Energy momentum and Electromagnetic stress tensors are intuitive in a similar way to the Electric universe but benefit from Einsteins insight on macroscopic quantum phenomena from BEC's.

Originally posted by dragonridr
There is nothing in the universe that we found that breaks the laws of physics and that is what would happen if there was a point just pouring out energy without the mass. Goes right back to E=MC2. Black holes are just gravity wells no different then a star. If our sun was a black hole with the same mass planets would continue along there paths the only difference would be no light.

edit on 8/18/13 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

I understand the laws of physics and I understand the governing system in place, pouring out energy? Understanding electricity and how a PCB is put together you know that there is also a governing system in the form of resistors, so why wouldn't they be built into the laws? You don't have to talk down like I'm some kind of idiot, K thanks!

Originally posted by Jukiodone

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by 1nf1del
I was looking for free thinkers who understand the concept of electric universe to discuss this with, apparently there are none here, good day!

edit on 18-8-2013 by 1nf1del because: (no reason given)

Oh i understand the theory just telling you its wrong and why. Look people latch on to it because its easy for them to understand i get it. But the universes driving force is gravity electricity only plays a small role in plasma physics. The sun uses a fusion reaction not an electrical current.

LOL very dismissive but probably correct.

Take heart electrical Universe proponents as Superfluid Vacuum Theory en.wikipedia.org... provides a much more likely answer and incorporates your intuitive approach to energy dynamics.

Energy momentum and Electromagnetic stress tensors are intuitive in a similar way to the Electric universe but benefit from Einsteins insight on macroscopic quantum phenomena from BEC's.

This theory intrigues me for example the non-Zero viscosity ( yet ultra low ) of the Super Fluid means that all spinning matter and the Micro Vortices that represent sub-sub-sub particles will eventually slow down! this explains the MISSING matter in the universe, aka the Dark Matter! It also explains the red shift rather well. However this also negates the big bang completely and back to our topic a bit turns black holes into gravistars in a spinning universe.And we see no evidence the universe is spinning. Though it does lead to one scary conclusion as well that means in every star in the galaxy universes have formed

Not sure im ready to make these leaps Im still leaning towards tensor fields.

I hear alot of things like this each day that X theory explains Y concept very well, but I never hear any arguments to actually explain why it is so.

If it explains redshift very well, how does it explain blue shift?

The other thing is that on the post about white dwarfs being possible opposites of black holes... sorry but as has already been said that statement is 100% incorrect, even in every possible nicest way that that might fit into a theory.

Stars, blackholes and planets share one thing in common. They are made up of matter, therefore have mass, and form a gravitational well that pulls everything towards them. All that is different is the depth of the well and its relative width/diameter in a spherical sense.

A white dwarf is a compact object, the surface and structure of the star is held up by electron degeneracy pressure. Look up Chandrasekhar limit: en.wikipedia.org... and en.wikipedia.org... The mathematics of this make sense an it can be derived from first principles rather easily, we did it our astronomy course. Easiest way of thinking about it is the filling of quantum states and the Pauli exclusion principle. It predicts a halted gravitational collapse for a stellar remnant when it has a mass between 0.4-1.4 solar. If the remnant has a higher mass than this, electron degeneracy cannot hold up the structure of the star and it becomes neutron degenerate... or becomes a neutron star. The top of this limit is around 1.5 solar masses to 3.0 solar masses.

Beyond this limit the star collapses and forms a black hole.

So say you are not happy with a high school vision of a black hole as some kind of infinite mass, singularity that sucks in everything like some unstoppable force... well well done, because many scientists are looking at the theories and trying to explain them in a way that holds the rest of physics in good stead. In many ways there is nothing really mystical about them when viewed from the outside... but understanding the inside is a huge huge question and one that many people are thinking very very deeply about and producing many theories to attempt to explain them.

It should be noted once again, that because a scientist cannot give you an answer you understand or even an answer that the scientist understands doesn't mean that anyone with a matter of fact attitude is anymore correct. Science doesn't know a great many things, sure, but because of that admission doesn't also mean that anyone's pet theory instantly supersedes the groundwork already done.

I like free thinking, but this thread was about black holes... maybe a thread should be started about electric universe theories independently...

Funny how so many rely on a dogmatic view of science when science itself admits to knowing even less than most who have posted in this thread, I'll bet most of you have PHD's in astronomy and physics, I suppose among so many armchair professionals I'm out of my league, of course you could just grasp on to one idea by another stupid monkey and run with it because of course we're all just stupid monkeys and one monkey doesn't have any more clue than any other monkey!

the real funny thing is sir that science is willing to admit a level of ignorance in all subjects, but also has a level of "we think we know what is happening in this area"

your level of 'dogma' is to simply say "i know everything, i am enlightened, all the rest of you are monkeys and idiots' truth is... unless you want to expand on these things and 'open the eyes of those who cannot see' you are just another person who is obsessed with his/her own legend and has little to nothing to offer in terms of actual knowledge... only a self perceived importance.

as i said... please explain how those the concepts fit into what is observed... explain it and lets see.

you lot always offer little more than "oh we know and you dont" quite often i think this place is just full of trolls, and little else to be honest.