India Needs A Huge Injection Of Feminism - And It Will Happen.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


Methinks you just don't have a valid counter argument to my points...I did not say that religion and culture are the same, I said they are intertwined, which you then went on to admit they are.

for the issues to be solved in India, it is the Indian women who have to want it and fight for it, that's not something we can do anything about, and nor should we. We can't force our values and beliefs onto others (we do, but that's another thread..point is we shouldn't) The fact of the matter is that there are areas of India, where the culture dominates and women (and those of a lower caste) are treated in the way that is expected for that culture, but I'm not really seeing how creating a thread on ATS is going to solve anything. Sure write a thread detailing what is happening by all means, but I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve by it

And have you read any more about the gender pay divide that still exists in the UK (and other western countries where we are all supposed to be equal) and what is your opinion on that.

As far as I'm concerned it is far better to solve the problems on your own doorstep before preaching and pontificating about perceived problems with other people's cultures

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Methinks you just don't have a valid counter argument to my points...I did not say that religion and culture are the same, I said they are intertwined, which you then went on to admit they are.

for the issues to be solved in India, it is the Indian women who have to want it and fight for it, that's not something we can do anything about, and nor should we. We can't force our values and beliefs onto others (we do, but that's another thread..point is we shouldn't) The fact of the matter is that there are areas of India, where the culture dominates and women (and those of a lower caste) are treated in the way that is expected for that culture, but I'm not really seeing how creating a thread on ATS is going to solve anything. Sure write a thread detailing what is happening by all means, but I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve by it

And have you read any more about the gender pay divide that still exists in the UK (and other western countries where we are all supposed to be equal) and what is your opinion on that.

As far as I'm concerned it is far better to solve the problems on your own doorstep before preaching and pontificating about perceived problems with other people's cultures

Just to chime in here, it actually is on our doorstep what with immigration and international students seeking out educational pursuits in our countries. Within the educational instution, I see many different cultures and I often see that the young men that I encounter bring their programming with them to our country. We women here in the West have fought long and hard for our rights and have every right and freedom here to address and perhaps to inspire the female immigrants to want the same.

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Methinks you just don't have a valid counter argument to my points...I did not say that religion and culture are the same, I said they are intertwined, which you then went on to admit they are.

YOU brought religion into this, i haven't mentioned it because its not religion causing the oppression of women in this case study. Yes, religion can be intertwined with culture, but this is NOT the case in india. Hence why i have not stated so in my OP.

for the issues to be solved in India, it is the Indian women who have to want it and fight for it, that's not something we can do anything about, and nor should we. We can't force our values and beliefs onto others (we do, but that's another thread..point is we shouldn't)

Right, firstly i agree. Im not advocating the west try and do anything about it. This thread is to point out how feminism with naturally occur (as well as other social movements) that will change India culturally. I have never proposed we send some western feminists over there to get things started.

The fact of the matter is that there are areas of India, where the culture dominates and women (and those of a lower caste) are treated in the way that is expected for that culture, but I'm not really seeing how creating a thread on ATS is going to solve anything. Sure write a thread detailing what is happening by all means, but I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve by it

Its called raising awareness to the ignorant folks on ATS who deny feminism NEEDS to exist.

And have you read any more about the gender pay divide that still exists in the UK (and other western countries where we are all supposed to be equal) and what is your opinion on that.

The football is on, i'll be reading them later.

As far as I'm concerned it is far better to solve the problems on your own doorstep before preaching and pontificating about perceived problems with other people's cultures

I cant understand why you've been so hostile towards the topic in this thread. All ive set out to do is highlight the problems of women in india and you've completely got the wrong end of what im trying to achieve. I am SHARING INFORMATION in the hope of BROADENING PEOPLES KNOWLEDGE about other parts of the world.

reply to post by InTheLight


I totally agree, I mentioned that to the OP and was replied to with a couple of puz faces, asking what "bring what to this country"

And that is where I will get involved and want to make my voice heard, because as women in the UK (or any western country) we may well have fought for and gained many rights, but we're still not equal and there is no way I will stand back and watch women being dragged back to the stoneage for religious or cultural reasons on my doorstep and whilst I'm not dismissing the issues of women in India or the OP's thread, I think it would be more valuable to discuss the issues affecting women in our own countries..though often at the very mention of the word muslim, the mods descend and the thread is closed...which is a shame as there are many issues that are of great concern to many people

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

I love how you've not even bothered to watch the video or read what ive wrote.

Deny ignorance.

I feel after the last thread on feminism I know all there is too know. Feminists are gender extremists whose goal is to siege power over men.

So you read a thread on a majority male right wing fringe website and you think that is a non-biased exploration of what feminism is?

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

I cant understand why you've been so hostile towards the topic in this thread. All ive set out to do is highlight the problems of women in india and you've completely got the wrong end of what im trying to achieve. I am SHARING INFORMATION in the hope of BROADENING PEOPLES KNOWLEDGE about other parts of the world.

I'm not being hostile, you posted information, and I gave reasons why it happens in India, additionally I gave some examples why I think we should be more aware of what is happening in our own country...you immediately dismiss them and me, with your faux what do you mean, responses.

And you're terribly concerned about women's rights in India,and are able to start a thread and keep replying about your thread subject, but are denying there are equality issues in the UK and when pointed to a (very short) link about the subject, the football is more important than reading that and replying...

Doubtless though, you will find the time to reply if it is a post that agrees 100% with you and subscribes to your way of thinking. So have a think to yourself about your responses to me..hostile and demeaning, when all I have done is to challenge your assumptions.

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by InTheLight

 

I totally agree, I mentioned that to the OP and was replied to with a couple of puz faces, asking what "bring what to this country"

And that is where I will get involved and want to make my voice heard, because as women in the UK (or any western country) we may well have fought for and gained many rights, but we're still not equal and there is no way I will stand back and watch women being dragged back to the stoneage for religious or cultural reasons on my doorstep and whilst I'm not dismissing the issues of women in India or the OP's thread, I think it would be more valuable to discuss the issues affecting women in our own countries..though often at the very mention of the word muslim, the mods descend and the thread is closed...which is a shame as there are many issues that are of great concern to many people

Actually, her last post above explains her reasoning and you are both on the same page.

The mods descend because you are selecting one particular group and that constitutes a 'calling out', so to speak.

Take note, that as a young girl being brought up Roman Catholic I was required to cover my head in church and was never given a reason why I was required to do this, and why the men and boys did not have to. You just had to was the programming at the time. So, my point is, as far as religion goes, to each their own. As to violence and the supression of women's rights, that is another animal altogether.

reply to post by InTheLight


No, we're clearly not on the same page because she does not think that there are any gender equality issues in the UK and can't be bothered reading about them anyway.

And I still don't see why there is any difference as to why women are oppressed, religion, race, culture, makes no difference the end result is the same.

So now we cannot have a conversation on ATS is one group is singled out? So if a problem is caused by one single group, that's it, no discussion. Okay so you are not a mod, you can't do anything about it, but here we have a genuine issue on our own doorstep, and we cannot discuss it because it involves using the "M" word

And I agree the Catholics are still causing problems for women today with their backward attitudes towards contraception

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by InTheLight

 

No, we're clearly not on the same page because she does not think that there are any gender equality issues in the UK and can't be bothered reading about them anyway.

And I still don't see why there is any difference as to why women are oppressed, religion, race, culture, makes no difference the end result is the same.

So now we cannot have a conversation on ATS is one group is singled out? So if a problem is caused by one single group, that's it, no discussion. Okay so you are not a mod, you can't do anything about it, but here we have a genuine issue on our own doorstep, and we cannot discuss it because it involves using the "M" word

And I agree the Catholics are still causing problems for women today with their backward attitudes towards contraception

Well she wants to discuss the situation in India not in the UK. Why don't you start up your own thread about it. The situation in India is serious and merits discussion, don't you think?

Originally posted by WaterBottle

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

I love how you've not even bothered to watch the video or read what ive wrote.

Deny ignorance.

I feel after the last thread on feminism I know all there is too know. Feminists are gender extremists whose goal is to siege power over men.

So you read a thread on a majority male right wing fringe website and you think that is a non-biased exploration of what feminism is?

edit on 11-8-2013 by WaterBottle because: (no reason given)

reply to post by InTheLight


The problem is that there is not that much anyone can say apart from "oh dreadful" "oh dear"

There is no scope for discussion or debate as the OP has admitted themselves that there is very little that we in the West can do about it. So what do we end up with, a few posts with the above platitudes?

As far as me raising my issues, after giving my own views on the subject, it seemed like an opportune moment to point out that we still face issues in our own country,both with the imported oppression of women and the existing issues with pay equality, which the OP rubbished, and then I'm accused of being hostile.

So, no, we're definitely not on the same page, but I shall trouble the OP no further, as I think I'm done with this, rather pointless, thread.

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

I cant understand why you've been so hostile towards the topic in this thread. All ive set out to do is highlight the problems of women in india and you've completely got the wrong end of what im trying to achieve. I am SHARING INFORMATION in the hope of BROADENING PEOPLES KNOWLEDGE about other parts of the world.

I'm not being hostile, you posted information, and I gave reasons why it happens in India, additionally I gave some examples why I think we should be more aware of what is happening in our own country...you immediately dismiss them and me, with your faux

what do you mean, responses.

Im talking about India, you start talking about he UK - feel like you're derailing my thread here.

And you're terribly concerned about women's rights in India,and are able to start a thread and keep replying about your thread subject, but are denying there are equality issues in the UK and when pointed to a (very short) link about the subject, the football is more important than reading that and replying...

If i wanted to discuss western feminist issues, i would make a thread about it. Ive made it perfectly clear im talking about Indian women's issues, not American, not chinese, not japanise, Indian. The issues that Western women face are superficial to the reality of living life as a woman in India.

Doubtless though, you will find the time to reply if it is a post that agrees 100% with you and subscribes to your way of thinking.

And is also on topic by any chance?

So have a think to yourself about your responses to me..hostile and demeaning, when all I have done is to challenge your assumptions.

I have engaged you in conversation and you've practically accused me of:
1) Not caring about western women
2) Advocating that its okay for religious oppression of women.
3) Not understanding your point of view.
4) Dictating that religion is somehow involved in the oppression of women in India.

You've been nothing but a pain in the backside from the 3rd post in if im honest. I dont want you to agree with me, but dont derail my thread talking about western women's issue's when im strictly speaking about Indian culture. Much appreciated.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


there is a time for everything and right now is not the time yet, not if women in india want to risk their lives for such a cause, when women in the west were fighting for their rights with protests and such it was much safer to do so than it is right now in india.
our cultures in the west has always been prone to change and rather fluid in nature, not to mention how much younger our cultures are compared to indian culture and how uniform and relatively stable western cultures have been despite how young and fragile the west has always been.
our cultures developed very differently and never had time to entrench itself in our daily lives to the same degree, you can't rush cultural change unless you want things to erupt into chaos and violence, i say give it 30 to 60 years before it becomes feasible for such a movement to begin.

Originally posted by namehere
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

there is a time for everything and right now is not the time yet, not if women in india want to risk their lives for such a cause, when women in the west were fighting for their rights with protests and such it was much safer to do so than it is right now in india.
our cultures in the west has always been prone to change and rather fluid in nature, not to mention how much younger our cultures are compared to indian culture and how uniform and relatively stable western cultures have been despite how young and fragile the west has always been.
our cultures developed very differently and never had time to entrench itself in our daily lives to the same degree, you can't rush cultural change unless you want things to erupt into chaos and violence, i say give it 30 to 60 years before it becomes feasible for such a movement to begin.

When is it ever the right time to push for social change?

Originally posted by namehere

there is a time for everything and right now is not the time yet, not if women in india want to risk their lives for such a cause, when women in the west were fighting for their rights with protests and such it was much safer to do so than it is right now in india.
our cultures in the west has always been prone to change and rather fluid in nature, not to mention how much younger our cultures are compared to indian culture and how uniform and relatively stable western cultures have been despite how young and fragile the west has always been.
our cultures developed very differently and never had time to entrench itself in our daily lives to the same degree, you can't rush cultural change unless you want things to erupt into chaos and violence, i say give it 30 to 60 years before it becomes feasible for such a movement to begin.

if ghandi had listened to this crap india would be under british rule still.
the best time to start is when people figure out how bloody stupid and ignorant current convention is.
the treatment of women is appalling and something needs to be done!

you have to start change at some point and the sick stuff from india needs change to start.
i read recently that in india they still do arranged marriages and if the in-laws don't like their daughter-in-law but get a large dowry from the marriage, they will attempt to make the daughter-in-law commit suicide!

how sick is that? it's not even a crime there to do something like that.

Ive worked with predominantly Indians at a previous job.

The males I worked with attitude toward females were shameful, although I saw it come out mostly toward other females of the same culture.

There was one time I caught a male Indian manager berating a young female Indian employee, I broke it up and the employee didn't want to "push" The issue. When I checked the cameras I saw that he had actually shoved her around a bit, was able to report it to HR and he got fired.

Even at that point the employee refused to testify against him at the HR proceedings, I testified myself. The manager had a history of "picking" on female employees and I was sick of it.

The female explained to me "thats hows things just are"... She emigrated in her early teens, and when she turned 18 married a man she never met that her parents shipped over from India so she was still heavily affected by her culture.

IF that happens in the US I can only imagine whats taking place in india, and with all the news reports about abuses there sadly we really don't have to imagine.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


When I went to India, I saw this attitude first-hand. Even my girlfriend was treated as a lesser human being and even sometimes groped. But even then, much of the time she was treated as an equal, was praised, and no sexual overtones were noticed. The difference between these seemingly two types of men was not feminism, but differences in religion and rationality.

Indian culture still has a caste system, and is somewhat behind western cultures when it comes humanist ethics. But simple awareness and the influence of other cultures through information is slowly changing that.

That being said, I don't think feminism is the answer when it comes to the glaringly obvious way many Indian men treat women, as feminism, with its wide brush, alienates the men there who are concerned about and sometimes fight over the way women are treated. So I would argue that the cultivating of rationality makes more sense, something feminism often fails to do.

I've been called scum by feminists simply because of my gender. I've been told that since I'm a man, I am inherently dangerous. I was simply a man walking down a street passing a feminist protest. Though I wasn't sexually objectified in any way, I was, as are women in india, prejudged based on my gender. So I don't see feminism as a viable way to spread awareness.

Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Indian culture still has a caste system, and is somewhat behind western cultures when it comes humanist ethics. But simple awareness and the influence of other cultures through information is slowly changing that.

Thats one thing I forgot to mention, that was one of the reasons the Female employee didn't press for HR, because she was a "lower" Caste than him. I kept trying to explain that caste crap doesn't fly here, but she just didn't seem to "get" it.

Or I didn't, its an important part of the culture, that frankly needs to change.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc


When is it ever the right time to push for social change?

Exactly.

Civil rights, Suffrage, need to remember that would of never have happened if people "waited for the right time"

reply to post by benrl


Same. My wife works at a hotel and many Indian people work there. The caste system is still in effect, as those of a higher caste sit away from those of a lower caste, despite them all having the same job and making the same wage. It is very strange to see in a western country, but still nonetheless happens.