The Spaceships of Ezekiel (Revisited)

Originally posted by Char-Lee

Originally posted by AntiNWO
reply to post by Char-Lee

 

...

I was thinking that, maybe the "watchers' in the book of Enoch have become confused in many of the writings around the world and using the term "God" for all of them has caused books to be gathered together and mixed.

The flying ships that were seen many times on the earth may have been build right here by the watchers, they seem to have been left here to watch, but instead decided to interfer. It seems they were the ones that sent humans down the path of material worship, body and clothing worship, killing one another and away from the simple and good life the people originally enjoyed.

It sounds as though they created cities and temples and each had worshipers and they found each other and war here on the Earth. they may have even manipulated human DNA for their own purposes which was all not intended by the creator who left them to watch the earth.

They are clearly still leading the whole of humanity and still living here as rulers in some way.

1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

I was thinking the root-cuttings could have been the use of drugs.

www.ccel.org...

Your summary leaves out many important details, such the fact that this "simple and good" life you are referring to consisted of being toted off by birds with 25 ft wingspans & other such terrifying beasts of ages past. If no modification had been implemented, we would still be hanging from trees & eating lice we picked off each others butts. There was a reason that man was preened upon through ages of wars & various levels of technology & given a rule of law instead of mere monkey business. The short life spans of unruly & disorganized life forms is something you want to go back to, well that's fine for you. I hope you get your wish, but the fact is that the majority of beasts in nature live a treacherous existence where they do, in fact, fight each other tooth & nail. With all the chances we have (that are usually ignored) to make this life better, you now want to blame it on our modified DNA. Well, next time we have an election or start a huge business endeavor, I suggest that you consult with your panel of chimpanzees to confer about the best routes in which to take.

There is corruption and carnality in all flesh. The duality of corruption and temptation as a possibility cannot be extracted from the potential. The potential is the mere fact that you have free will to choose & you still have free will. How can you deny this?

If you do not deny this but insist that decisions are species based and not of the spirit, are you suggesting that we scrap the entire template and start over at the bacteria level? So just scrap the millions and millions of years it took to build this DNA? Ok. I'll make a note of that.

Or maybe you have a better idea what you'd like to be, a preferred DNA blueprint.
Humans can't even overcome their diseases. Poor humans.

You could always pray for answers.

*AHEM*

In the meantime we must face the fact that no, all Elohim should be no more mixed together than any other group of individuals, as it seems that the one who is doing this to the most generalized extent is you, even more so than the books your citing from that clearly tells you that some angels made decisions SEPARATE from the decisions of other Elohim.

Unless of course you want to be judged right along side the human baby killers of the world in the same kind of mixing pot
.
While we're at it, let's have your clothes, your car, house, all tech devices, all your money, your ability to communicate with words, in other words, you want to live like the 2 men found in the jungle of Vietnam who have been living in a tree for decades. I guess you won't mind if ATS just has a great big yard sale with everything that attaches you to evolution.

Your choices are yours alone.

Actually the 4 faces of the animals could of just been a shapeshifter. Showing you an animal with 4 faces. Lol.

It could be bluntly obvious what he is telling you.

And the wheel within a wheel?

Look at my avatar pic. That is the Saucer i saw which the beings i saw associate themselves with lions and wolves.

I find this is directly steemed to the Egyptian gods Anubis and the recounting of the Lion Statues and gods are all stemed from what i think i saw anyways.

Then theres all the lore about snakes and owls and the bulls and crap all associated with the other guys.

That's basically what it is. Yahweh associates himself with Lions, You cannot deny that. The other guys are like dragons or something. Who cares.

Anyways.

The avatar is only moderatly correct. Tho its not blue light they were black domes with white on the outline and carved intricate lines that never curved only bent and had some weird black stuff coming out of it.

But yeah. I don't see how this could be difficult for a shapeshifter to acomplish lol. The wheel within a wheel tho.

IS he saying that these creatures were inside the wheels? If so. Yup. That would be them. And i mean, How else and why else would a Lion rush out into the streets and attack evil dooers. Like. Pretty much all the time in the old testament.

Care to explain that? Or is it mearly. Just a coincidence.

reply to post by NotAnAspie

our summary leaves out many important details, such the fact that this "simple and good" life you are referring to consisted of being toted off by birds with 25 ft wingspans & other such terrifying beasts of ages past.

Maybe all of this is associated with the corruption that took place.

And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood.

Maybe that is not how it was in the "beginning".

And in those days I will open the store chambers of blessing which are in the heaven, so as to send 2 them down upon the earth over the work and labour of the children of men. And truth and peace shall be associated together throughout all the days of the world and throughout all the generations of men.'

Maybe we don't have the ability to get the timeline right. maybe the dino's were removed from this planet for us and a garden was planted here and there were no killing, no biting insects as everything was at peace with one another.

Then humans were taught to much, things they should not know and maybe genetic experiments took place:

ex]that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8. Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

reply to post by NotAnAspie

While we're at it, let's have your clothes, your car, house, all tech devices, all your money, your ability to communicate with words, in other words, you want to live like the 2 men found in the jungle of Vietnam who have been living in a tree for decades.

I believe they were given language, but as for the rest, those who are simple beings in a world not full of infections and dangers and nothing eating anyone else, that would be a preferable life even now before being changed to the original form of simple happy healthy beings.

Originally posted by filledcup
actually.. literal interpretation would be a spaceship.

Odd, then, that no description of a ship is included in Ezekiel's description.

Originally posted by filledcup this is the route science would take. in hindu texts there are 'virmanas',

Yes, and I agree that a literal interpretation of the Vedas would indicate that Vimanas are flying contraptions of some sort. Unlike in Ezekiel, in the Vedas vimanas are described as flying vehicles (not spaceships, BTW.)

Originally posted by filledcupsumerians claim aliens came from the sky and taught them everything.. writing, agriculture, math etc

In fact, no Sumerian writings claim anything like this.

Originally posted by filledcupor is that the literal interpretation? lol

The throne description is the literal interpretation. Ezekiel knew the iconography for cherubim, gave that iconography in his description, and then stated that the four beings were cherubim.

To get "landing support legs" (or whatever) from "cherubim" requires a metaphorical interpretation, which was what I was pointing out.

Literally, "cherubim" are cherubim, after all.

Harte

A wheel within a wheel or a wheel intersecting a wheel? which one was it? A wheel within a wheel could look very different from a wheel intersecting a wheel.
A wheel intersecting a wheel makes me think of a gyroscope like this:


A wheel within a wheel makes me think of something like this:


The obvious question that comes to mind is why would god even need wheels since he is all powerful and can obviously defy gravity?

The strangest thing that he says in the description is that the spirit of the living beings is in their wheels, why would he think that?
What was it about the wheels that made him think that they contained a spirit?

Why would he describe the top part as a vault and not just a box or rectangle box? What was it about the top part that made him think it was a vault?
Is vault even the right translation of the word he actually used to describe it?

I think it`s odd that he would use words like "glowing metal" and " burnished bronze" to describe parts of the thing he saw. How would he know what glowing metal looks like? was metal working a pretty common public spectacle in those days?

reply to post by Ta1ntedJustice


The thing makes me think of a drone. Did god have drones?

Originally posted by Tardacus
A wheel within a wheel or a wheel intersecting a wheel? which one was it? A wheel within a wheel could look very different from a wheel intersecting a wheel.

The obvious question that comes to mind is why would god even need wheels since he is all powerful and can obviously defy gravity?

This wheels within wheels decription is a tricky one. One wonders what it's for, as you say. Especially when the visitation, as claimed by Ezekiel (and by the Entity in the story) was from God Himself - Yahweh, Jehova. You know the guy.

Here's part of God's message to Ezekiel:

“As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword; take and use it as a barber’s razor on your head and beard. Then take scales for weighing and divide the hair. 2 One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. 3 Take also a few in number from them and bind them in the edges of your robes. 4 Take again some of them and throw them into the fire and burn them in the fire; from it a fire will spread to all the house of Israel.

Source: Ezekiel 5

Check out those alien pranks!

Originally posted by TardacusThe strangest thing that he says in the description is that the spirit of
I think it`s odd that he would use words like "glowing metal" and " burnished bronze" to describe parts of the thing he saw. How would he know what glowing metal looks like?

When metal glows, a light comes out from within the form itself. Similarly burnished bronze can seem to reflect light from within, instead of from the surface. Because it's fairly dark. Probably, these descriptions are meant to convey that, whatever it was on the throne on the platform (both terms come straight from Ezekiel, BTW,) light was coming out of it, it was not lit from the ouside.

Originally posted by Tardacuswas metal working a pretty common public spectacle in those days?

It wasn't a county fair competiton, if that's what you mean. But Ezekiel was well into the Iron Age when he had his vision.

Harte

Originally posted by jeep3r

Originally posted by Salander

 

Apologies if it's already been addressed, and I might have the wrong part of the bible, but I thought that the craft associated with Ezekial landed into some sort of receiving structure? Am I confused?

Yes, Ezekiel saw the 'likeness of the glory of the lord' also in a different context involving a temple. That would be Ezekiel 10, here's an excerpt ...

3 Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the Lord rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the Lord. 5 The sound of the wings of the cherubim could be heard as far away as the outer court, like the voice of God Almighty[a] when he speaks.

(...)

20 These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim. 21 Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like human hands. 22 Their faces had the same appearance as those I had seen by the Kebar River. Each one went straight ahead.

Source

Eric von Daniken wrote about similar ideas in his books. But "wheels within wheels" do exist in the real world.
Look for "omni-wheels":



Described here (this also documents robot arms used to access the nuclear reactor at the base of the vehicle:

www.spaceshipsofezekiel.com...

Good post as well as effort and imagination in trying to stick with the passage.

However, certain things just didn't follow with me, which others had said. A space ship on wheels is one, even though it could be the landing(and since every landing gear does have a wheel) but they look very close too pneumatic wheels for a craft that can cross the stars seems a tad illogical, considering it can go anywhere it pretty much wants.

Also rotor blades is another, considering the traditional space ship is said to use a field to keep it up in the air,even though they could installed that feature.

As for the animal faces, it seemed like he was trying to describe a certain protruding characteristic that had really specifically caught his eye. Not spaceship decals, although I have no idea what a human face with a face of lion to it right, with face of an ox to the left, while each had a face of an eagle. Turbines maybe, who knows.

Other then that, I think you generally had the overall idea of it, and did a good job presenting with the 3-d images. Good work on your part, as for Ezekiel, I wish he drew it on a piece of paper or a rock, but then showing pictures of the lords face was probably a death sentence back in those day.

Anyways, Kudos to you. S&F.

I have not read about Ezekiel, but it sounds much like he was panicking or too excited to give as accurate a description as many claim, where i'm to believe he described a city in such detail with measurements and heights with clarity, there is not the same detail of measurements or types of shapes really mentioned here, there is mention of a vault like structure, what comes to my mind is something that has volume and not just a flat surface that a throne sits on as someone has made a model of in this video.

www.youtube.com...


I could not accept such a literal meaning as that video since it would not be as logical as an advance object beyond his understanding, it seems like he's more explaining something to the best of what knowledge he has, and not, "oh i know for sure that is a cheribum, i have seen many and know what they look like" He may have only heard stories of fantastic creatures and an advanced object could certainly make a person of that time think that this is indeed one of those mythical creatures they have heard stories about.

Awesome! This actually makes alot of sense. There would have bee no way for him to describe something he has never seen before, and something he doesn't have words for. I've always thought it could be us in the future going back in time and changing history.

reply to post by jeep3r

Our spaceships are purely for efficiency needs everything else is cut out for it to be more efficient. If and in time we were to become a space faring species our simple crafts would become more stylized or artistic. So yes you can carve faces into the rotters or the controllable jet blasts moveable legs of your spaceship. Just look at any concept out there and even even for modern aircraft and you can see they can be molded to represent anything.

Even the whole painting shark like faces in front of jet fighters is exactly that, and if you were to show that to somebody who has never seen it before what would he make of it? What would they say but a demon or god with faces of men and animals and teeth once came down from the sky. And on top a man stood half his body metal, and his face like surrounded by as like a halo Carnelian stone reflecting the rays of the sun "ie orange astronaut face mask"

But then again just how close to the original story is any of this, this story could have been retold so many times that it may not even be anywhere close to the original. If there actually is any truth to it all that is, who would know eh. Sometimes these sort of things is like playing telephone or people telling fish stories, that 1 foot trout they once caught eventually turns into a 8 foot monster of a fish as the story is told and retold.

jet fighters

I believe that there is a more logical explanation for what Ezekiel saw if you just look at the Hebrew roots of the Old Testament. This video may be long, but if you want to know the truth that no one brings up about Ezekiel's Wheels than you must watch it:

Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NotAnAspie

 

...

Maybe all of this is associated with the corruption that took place.

And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood.

Maybe that is not how it was in the "beginning".

Maybe we don't have the ability to get the timeline right. maybe the dino's were removed from this planet for us and a garden was planted here and there were no killing, no biting insects as everything was at peace with one another.

Then humans were taught to much, things they should not know and maybe genetic experiments took place:

ex]that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8. Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

maybe maybe maybe.

lots of maybes in your words and that means your basically just guessing. Anybody can make up a story.

MAYBE science tells a completely different story than the one you want to believe.

Oh wait, there is no maybe... It simply DOES. There is nothing to back up the claim AT ALL that insects, that have always been *extremely* important and present in the kingdoms of life were at any time absent or subject to having a nature that revolves around humans... as in not bothering us... or other animals that simply respected us as the top of the food chain. NO, actually, we are the newcomers, bacteria itself has more claim to this Earth than us & there is no sign that we're more important or deserving of respect. Nature has never shown any signs of simply rolling out the red carpet for humans at any point in time that has been studied so far. What gave man control was his ability that appears to have been GIVEN to him- to use tools & weapons of protection, unlike animals. Even then he used those tools against one another & still does to this day despite having the ability to simply stop doing that.

Really, it's a personable problem with individuals that are ever present no matter which life form... & science shows this again & again & again throughout history.

You've got a long way to go before your able to rewrite millions of years of scientific study.

If you believe that we were so coddled & protected, where are our protectors?

Probably sitting back wondering why we have to pass the buck of blame & expect to be handed every easement that time after time only produces a self righteous society, just like the one Jehovah said he would use as an example among the nations, the one with whom he had a particular covenant with & protected DIRECTLY with his so called "spiritual chariot of vision"... & the kinks are still being worked out to this late day and age. Imagine that.

The only part of your assessment that doesn't seem like just a hopeful fairytale is the theory that perhaps the dinosaurs were removed from this planet. I think for the most part it was natural disaster but obviously didn't wipe out all life on Earth, some also survived & even the bible mentions the behemoth with a tail like a cedar of Lebanon. It also refers to giants in more than one place. On one hand, they were heroic perpetrators of the human race being more able to overcome many deadly foes, but like all flesh... they had their problems & were also removed by circumstance. There is reason to believe that they were high maintenance glutinous controlling beings who kind of insisted upon being in lofty positions.

Respect needs to be given to life's adaptation through the ages, no matter the superstitions or need to blame another for the choices we make. We're lucky to be here at all, & not be a giant lamprey or something. Simply put, we have no excuse other than the choices of individuals to not be making life better.

If you think that means being simpletons who are too innocent to pick up a tool, then you can let asteroids rain on your world along with any other cosmic event that might try to kill us.

I, for one, have love & desire to pursue & would rather study the sciences, overcome the dangers of nature, giving it the respect it deserves & explore the stars... as we are meant to do, as our guides clearly beckon us to do who light the path., rather than hoping and believing the fairytale should just happen to me, because I'm an oh so important human that was robbed of it's innocence and shown the treacherous world outside, instead of lead to believe it doesn't exist.

reply to post by NotAnAspie

I, for one, have love & desire to pursue & would rather study the sciences, overcome the dangers of nature, giving it the respect it deserves & explore the stars... as we are meant to do, as our guides clearly beckon us to do who light the path., rather than hoping and believing the fairytale

Hum... as we are meant to do? Our Guides? Lighting our path?(fairytales?)

So science of mankind has fixed everything all up for ya then...yes it is surely in our wise nature to purse the right path and make everything better.

Originally posted by Tyler133
I believe that there is a more logical explanation for what Ezekiel saw if you just look at the Hebrew roots of the Old Testament. This video may be long, but if you want to know the truth that no one brings up about Ezekiel's Wheels than you must watch it:

edit on 8/11/2013 by Tyler133 because: Incorrectly embedded video.

I can't even listen to this guy talk. He's looking at the camera like he wants to give it a kiss "or much worse" and kind of like he's very medicated. Then he goes on to pretend that ancient Hebrew just didn't care at all what anything looked like.

Who the hell is this guy to make that claim? *oh, let's just make stuff up... like all the points in the bible where it says "AND I SAW...." mean something TOTALLY different than actually seeing something*

I don't know who that guy is but I feel like I would hate him and that just about anything he says is really just "blah, blah BS, blah, blah, let me leer intelligently at the camera to be convincing, more BS, blah, blah, I'm so full myself and BS, I hope I sound smart, blah, blah, I'm on a mission from God because my last 3 videos were about the Torah, blah, blah, sign from God, blah, blah, yackity shmackity blah"

Sorry if that sounds rude but he needs to get real. He could have condensed the first 6 minutes into 30 seconds so I stopped watching.

reply to post by NotAnAspie

You seem to be very quick to judge and make many assumptions about someone when you have never met the person or only watched a fraction of their videos. You should not judge the nature of an idea based upon how you think the person may be, but you should just consider the idea that that person presented. The Old Testament along with the rest of the Bible was written for Hebrews and thus the best way to interpret the text is with a Hebrew mindset. What something may appear to mean for the modern Western mindset may mean something much different for an ancient Hebrew. This man (Alan Horvath) tries to have a Hebrew mindset while studying the Bible and researches the Hebrew words and their meaning when looking at something as seemingly strange as Ezekiel's Wheels. He has been studying the Scriptures for practically his entire life and he uses the actual Hebrew words and a Hebrew mindset and not just English translations of the Bible to try to convey the message that the Bible is meant to convey. While he may take awhile to get to the exact point, that does not mean you should give up watching the video and start calling him names, you should finish the video and hear a different approach to this unique topic before you form any ideas or opinions. If you don't agree with someone's idea than that's okay but you should always come into things with an open mind.

Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NotAnAspie

 

I, for one, have love & desire to pursue & would rather study the sciences, overcome the dangers of nature, giving it the respect it deserves & explore the stars... as we are meant to do, as our guides clearly beckon us to do who light the path., rather than hoping and believing the fairytale

Hum... as we are meant to do? Our Guides? Lighting our path?(fairytales?)

So science of mankind has fixed everything all up for ya then...yes it is surely in our wise nature to purse the right path and make everything better.

So you haven't realized the connection between alien visitation and the perceived need to develop space programs and try to back engineer and compete with what has been subtly shown to us. Where once we were so certain that everything revolved around this world, instead of the world being subject to infinite cosmic dangers, mankind learned that he hasn't even scratched the surface of understanding the universe... and that he is not really the head honcho, as we have numerous pieces of evidence to indicate that another race has excelled way beyond our capabilities. And when the realization really hit home, the first thing they did was become afraid, giving rise the the sci-fi age and fear is a great motivator. They developed the space agencies and started competing to traverse the frontier of space.

It wasn't enough for them to be aware that rocks can fall from the sky as they have known that since the dark ages when they were still burning all the books... because a self righteous race will believe that the God they chose to create for their convenience will protect them from such threats... until the actual tragedy falls upon them. It takes that kind of realization but it's still not enough to make them stop believing in a fairy tale type God... who according to their own dogma is a being prone to some vicious emotions and promised vengeance upon those who refuse to give him respect and seek to destroy him but they still overlook all that and create they God the WANT to see.

So mankind had to be shown that beings are actually out there... and of course no one can produce the proof of this because it would completely destroy the powers religious control that they have used to pit cultures against one another, but the clues are still there and as a member of this site, you should be aware of this and should be able to connect those dots.

but instead, you are content with the idea that none of this is our fault and that "the devil made us do it" essentially. That's fine for you... I have nothing to gain for you not taking personal responsibility as a human of the world but will certainly tell you when you are just making stuff up.

The UFO and ET disinfo... I CERTAINLY did not make up. The cover up and all the evidence, all the eye witness reports all the reputable military testimonies that back up the story... NONE of which is either a fairy tale... or made up.

If you don't believe it, than why are you even discussing celestial visitation as if you do?
That one you really need to answer.

If you don't believe it, that's you but if you don't, maybe you should stop trying to pin theoretical conjecture to it willy nilly in a thread where people have spent a lot of time researching this and care about the issue a great deal. Your opinion doesn't erase the fact that this ongoing investigation exists and if you choose to ignore it as a fairytale, it speaks way more about YOU than it doesn't about ME.

Every one is entitled to an opinion... and anyone is entitled to feel that an opinion is just a superficial attempt at theory read from websites on demonology and alien disinfo... a guesswork hobby to pass the time away.

Originally posted by Tyler133
reply to post by NotAnAspie

 

You seem to be very quick to judge and make many assumptions about someone when you have never met the person or only watched a fraction of their videos. You should not judge the nature of an idea based upon how you think the person may be, but you should just consider the idea that that person presented. The Old Testament along with the rest of the Bible was written for Hebrews and thus the best way to interpret the text is with a Hebrew mindset. What something may appear to mean for the modern Western mindset may mean something much different for an ancient Hebrew. This man (Alan Horvath) tries to have a Hebrew mindset while studying the Bible and researches the Hebrew words and their meaning when looking at something as seemingly strange as Ezekiel's Wheels. He has been studying the Scriptures for practically his entire life and he uses the actual Hebrew words and a Hebrew mindset and not just English translations of the Bible to try to convey the message that the Bible is meant to convey. While he may take awhile to get to the exact point, that does not mean you should give up watching the video and start calling him names, you should finish the video and hear a different approach to this unique topic before you form any ideas or opinions. If you don't agree with someone's idea than that's okay but you should always come into things with an open mind.

You seem to be very quick to speak about and take up for a person, as far as we know as another person who is just posting a video they found by them and not the video author themselves, so that is one reason why I don't feel I should listen to you on your opinion of why I should listen to him.

The thing about the Hebrew mindset is just a way to set another racist stereotype and I have absolutely no need to explore the policy of Hebrews not caring to SEE anything... as if that is going to be a constructive way to view Hebrews as a race.

Every race on planet Earth was given eyes to see and those who have working eyes use them. What a pitiful and weak excuse it is to insist that one race simply doesn't care about what they visually experience, Have you read the bible? Do you realize just how many visual descriptions are in the bible? To make this claim makes me think this guy is absolutely out of his mind and desperate to try to find any weak way he can to back up his opinion...so NO, I DON"T have to consider his opinion... and I won't. As the bible says, I rebuke blinders on the eyes... I have eyes to see. Do I need to make more referrences opposing this apparantly new habit of hebrews ignoring the visual appearance of everything?

You can call that quick to judge all you want. I'm a grown up. I can take it. Since we're sharing advice on what to consider, maybe YOU should consider just how *quick* he was to discredit himself. I'm not obligated to waste my time on the man. I find it ridiculous.