New research shows crustaceans feel pain.

Originally posted by swanne

Originally posted by theRhenn
P.S.. People like YOU are the reason why regular people have to give up their rights and their property and sometimes starve to death so people like you can feel like you saved a life... THATS NOT EVEN HUMAN.

Starvation is not caused by that. This only goes on to show how much of the real world you miss. You seem to think that if we don't kill animals, people will starve to death. The real world is not that way. In the real world, the body needs carbohydrates, which is found in vegan sources (you see - cells in your body and in your brain work by destructing glucose chains so to harvest the energy), such as beans and corn and wheat. Milk and eggs will give you the rest of the components the body needs.

Your justification for killing animals is moot.

You see, I knew you would try that bull cocky.

Since the beginning of time, man has hunted... How are you going to tell me that we should eat only plants?

I know that you can be just as healthy eating plants as eating meat, but there is no justification that we should eat only plants. Plants have a few drawbacks as well as any meat issues you could lable.

- Some vegetable proteins are more expensive and harder to find than meat proteins.
- Most vegetable proteins don't offer as many protein grams per ounce as meat proteins.
- It can be difficult to get enough vitamin B-12, especially for vegans, from solely plant-based proteins.

Source

The Many Many links for the disadvantages of being a vegan


So as you see.. there are many disadvantages as well. Personaly I think vegans look sickly.

I will also say that I know that vegans can live a healthy full life, but so can meat eaters so there is nothing you can say to justify WHY we should not eat meat. My point is no more moot than yours.

My justification for killing animals is for food. Just because you eat plants doesn't mean you have any justifcation for taking away my meat eating. But sure.. we should leave that up to the meat eating animals.. right? Or should we stop meat eaters from eating other animals too?

I guess you dont realise how silly you sound.

I am sorry to hear this.But I am an avid free diver. I am on a reef every weekend in the summer. And I can assure you, what sea animals do to each other when they decide to eat is far worse than what we do to them. I have seen fish bitten right in half by barracuda and still swimming around for a couple seconds, looks like someone took a scissors and cut it in half. Octopus will crush a crab and eat it alive. One morning we saw a reef shark on the beach that had been bitten in two by a bull shark. jellyfish sting their pray to death with tentacles barbed with poison darts that I assure you don't feel too nice when piercing your skin. Nature can be cruel. You have to remember that the brain of a crustacean is not like the brain of a higher animal. I think they react to pain but not to sure if they feel it like we do. And as far as we know, plants may feel pain as well. Who really knows? Unless we learn to photosynthesize, we will have to eat, and its never going to be pleasant for those being eaten.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by kmb08753

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by kmb08753

 

I would say this has more to do with "sports" like hunting and fishing and nothing to do with things that happen as a result of us eating.

Elwood specifically mentions how lobsters are processed, how crabs are kept with bound claws, and prawns are skewered alive. However, he seems particularly keen on raising awareness for ethical treatment of animals. I think this could apply to both, sport killing and humane food processing.

Maybe I misunderstood your reply.

I am not against more humane treatment of animals. Does binding claws cause pain? Skewered alive would be something mankind has had to do to animals for as long as we have been around to get food. I am all for more humane alternatives though if there is a better way.

I think there is a line for humane treatment; somewhere between binding claws and ripping legs off prior to death.

I have always wondered whether or not insects felt pain, but an experiment that I did once seemed to prove so. We had these discusting waterbug hybrid things and I decided to catch some for scientific purposes. I put them in the sink and dropped bleech on a few, and they seemed to exhibit extreme pain, as if they were being burned alive. There legs were scurrying and closing very quickly in a struggle to survive. I only added a few drops onto their back, so I believe this may show that the insects do have at least a small sense of pain. I never squashed one again, as silly as that may seem.

reply to post by kmb08753


wow really?? really?? hahahahahahahaha man that is just nutts..how much money did they get to figure that out?? you could have done that at home on your spare time

Most humans have NO empathy at ALL!!!
will it only feel pain if it Screams like a human
and begs you to stop? even then.............

are they Evil or just stupid?

Originally posted by theRhenn

Since the beginning of time, man has hunted... How are you going to tell me that we should eat only plants?

I know that you can be just as healthy eating plants as eating meat, but there is no justification that we should eat only plants.

We aren't at the beginning of time anymore, mate. If any, we are at its end...

You actually have more chance getting sick at eating meat than from being a vegan. First of all, the fat. The fat is all wrong, it's saturated fat, meaning it's the kind of which blocks your arteries. And, unlike plants, it contains carcinogens.

while high in protein, it’s also packed with fats that can contribute to heart disease and diabetes and other compounds that can promote cancer.

source: healthland.time.com...

The researchers divided the amount of meat consumed by the participants into five categories, ranging from the most (2.4 to 3.1 servings daily) to the least (less than half a serving daily). When they compared individuals who ate the most red meat with those who ate the least, the red meat lovers had a 30 percent greater risk of dying than the so-so meat consumers.

source: www.huffingtonpost.com...

Chicken flesh and eggs are packed with cholesterol—a 3-ounce piece of skinless chicken breast meat has as much cholesterol as beef

source: www.peta.org...

And, well, meat often carry potentially deadly bacterias, and, plus, as PETA points out, meat consumption by humans contribute to CO2 emission, and suggests vegan alimentation instead: www.peta.org...

My justification for killing animals is for food. Just because you eat plants doesn't mean you have any justifcation for taking away my meat eating. But sure.. we should leave that up to the meat eating animals.. right? Or should we stop meat eaters from eating other animals too?

What??

These animals don't know better. And even then, carnivorous animals aren't evolved enough to adapt to a new alimentation. I thought you could think by yourself, adapt, and that your actions didn't need approval from meat-eating animals.

I remember from many many years ago an episode of "The Galloping Gourmet" in which he discussed how best to dispatch one's lobster before cooking. His advice was to set them in a sink full of tepid water for a bit. It seems that they die quickly in warm fresh water. Apparently the lobsters don't realize anything is wrong with their situation and just quietly pass away; of course they must be cooked immediately after.

So there, problem solved.

reply to post by gotya


I can't reach!!!! DAMMAT!

reply to post by swanne

We aren't at the beginning of time anymore, mate. If any, we are at its end...

Makes no difference... Why should it? If we have been eating meat for 10,000 - 400,000 years... Do you really think that eating vegan now is some super discovery where ... oh wow! We found a way to prolong our lives by eating vegan... Why didn't we think of this before?!?!?! The two go hand in hand well enough that we're doing just fine like we have been for thousands of years.

You actually have more chance getting sick at eating meat than from being a vegan. First of all, the fat. The fat is all wrong, it's saturated fat, meaning it's the kind of which blocks your arteries. And, unlike plants, it contains carcinogens.

Really now...

New study puts final nail in the “saturated fat causes heart disease” coffin

Keep with the times... New research changes often

The Diet-Heart Myth: Cholesterol and Saturated Fat Are Not the Enemy

Saturated Fat is NOT the Cause of Heart Disease

If Cholesterol Doesn't Cause Heart Disease, How Do You Prevent It?

Two major studies conclude that saturated fat does NOT cause heart disease

I could give you many, many more...

But wait... Let me touch upon the other side of your statement, that it's safer eating vegan..

Eating Vegetables Doesn’t Stop Cancer

Think Raw Veggies are Best? Think Again

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but cruciferous vegetables should be cooked before eating as they contain chemicals that BLOCK the production of thyroid hormone in your body!

10 Everyday Fruits and Vegetables that are Poisonous

Most of us think that eating fruits and vegetables can be nothing but healthy but there are hidden dangers in many common foods. Poisons that make you sick, paralyze and even kill you lurk behind some of our favorites.

This one was my fave... As we have no idea how bad or possible this was with so many COMMON fruits and vegies.

The Harmful Effects of Eating Too Much Vegetables

Ah man.. I thought that was only an issue with meat!!

Salad Mix Behind Food Poisoning Outbreak, Health Officials Say

FDA Links Bagged Salad Mix Stomach Bug In 2 States To Mexican Farm

Food Poisoning Bulletin

And I'll close this list with:

US Official apologizes for letting Monsanto poison Americans

Oh yeah.. Dont forget that they're feeding us geneticly altered stuff.

eggs are packed with cholesterol

They're also packed with high amounts of Omega 3. Yummy! And good for you.

And, well, meat often carry potentially deadly bacterias, and, plus, as PETA points out, meat consumption by humans contribute to CO2 emission, and suggests vegan alimentation instead:

LoL EVERYTHING you eat will end up as CO2. Doh!!

Read up a little when I pointed out the harm in bagged vaggies.. They carry the same... How is this any different, again?

Now what about that moot point again?

Do I get a "Touche'"?

These animals don't know better. And even then, carnivorous animals aren't evolved enough to adapt to a new alimentation. I thought you could think by yourself, adapt, and that your actions didn't need approval from meat-eating animals.

Man, you hit the nail right on the head... THESE ANIMALS DONT KNOW BETTER... So what's the problem? I just dont see it.

FYI... This is thinking for myself. I think meat is yummy! You should try it sometime. Might help YOUR thinking process.

Pain is a simple response of a central nervous system. It's one of the most basic psycho-physical links. The existence of a central nervous system is synonymous with the existense of consciousness/awareness.

Thankfully, people have no nutritional need to kill creatures with central nervous systems, since plants do not have central nervous systems. Nowadays, living on plant-based diets is easy. Not to mention healthier for the body and mind.

Originally posted by kmb08753

Originally posted by Garkiniss
I think this study falls under the "No $#!t, Sherlock" category.
We already know plants feel pain as well. Why wouldn't a lobster?

Pain is the most basic learning tool in nature.


If this study were about rocks, then that would be news.

Well it was news to me. Current theory is that invertebrates do not have a complex enough nervous system to feel pain.

One example from the Lobster Institute at The University of Maine:

"Do lobsters feel pain?
The Lobster Institute has received many inquires about whether boiling lobsters is humane. Being concerned about this important question, researchers conducted experiments and studied the lobster’s nervous system. The nervous system of a lobster is very primitive; in fact it is most similar to the nervous system of an insect. If one compares the diagram of a lobster’s nervous system to that of a grasshopper, the similarities are apparent. Neither insects nor lobsters have brains. For an organism to perceive pain it must have a complex nervous system. Neurophysiologists tell us that lobsters, like insects, do not process pain."

People can "suppose" and suspect that they feel pain, but what I posted was someone offering proof.

edit on 8-8-2013 by kmb08753 because: (no reason given)

Uhm, no -- that's not proof.

We have a complex brain, so when we feel pain we say it's because of our complex brain. We do not have an insect body, we cannot tell what an insect can feel or cannot feel, we can only postulate.


Until the day you can become a lobster, you can't say for sure!

Originally posted by Laykilla

Originally posted by kmb08753

Originally posted by Garkiniss
I think this study falls under the "No $#!t, Sherlock" category.
We already know plants feel pain as well. Why wouldn't a lobster?

Pain is the most basic learning tool in nature.


If this study were about rocks, then that would be news.

Well it was news to me. Current theory is that invertebrates do not have a complex enough nervous system to feel pain.

One example from the Lobster Institute at The University of Maine:

"Do lobsters feel pain?
The Lobster Institute has received many inquires about whether boiling lobsters is humane. Being concerned about this important question, researchers conducted experiments and studied the lobster’s nervous system. The nervous system of a lobster is very primitive; in fact it is most similar to the nervous system of an insect. If one compares the diagram of a lobster’s nervous system to that of a grasshopper, the similarities are apparent. Neither insects nor lobsters have brains. For an organism to perceive pain it must have a complex nervous system. Neurophysiologists tell us that lobsters, like insects, do not process pain."

People can "suppose" and suspect that they feel pain, but what I posted was someone offering proof.

edit on 8-8-2013 by kmb08753 because: (no reason given)

Uhm, no -- that's not proof.

We have a complex brain, so when we feel pain we say it's because of our complex brain. We do not have an insect body, we cannot tell what an insect can feel or cannot feel, we can only postulate.


Until the day you can become a lobster, you can't say for sure!

edit on 11-8-2013 by Laykilla because: (no reason given)

Yes, I said as much in an earlier post/reply. Maybe I should have said evidence instead of proof. Elwood apparently thinks the long-term change of behaviour fits with a definition of pain. As we can't "be" a crab, that may very well be the best we can do.

At least he isn't just resting on a suspicion and is trying to get an answer.

reply to post by theRhenn


Let's pretend here that you're right, and that eating meat has less danger than eating plants. Then you say,

EVERYTHING you eat will end up as CO2. Doh!!

Here you misunderstood PETA's information. What PETA is trying to make us realize, is that feeding for instance beef is more invasive to the environment than growing plants. Plants require water, a good soil, and will convert atmospheric CO2 to sugar and oxygen, which in turn strengthens the ozone layer and lets humans breathe. If mankind was to augment its demand for meat, more meat will have to be produced to meet demands. Because beef and most animals we eat rely on eating plants to survive, That means more of our graminea stocks won't be used to feed people, but beef and pork and chicken instead. More water will be used to both sustain the plants that the cattle eats and the cattle itself. Plus cattle convert this part of oxygen back to CO2. It takes far more energy to sustain cattle than plants.

I think meat is yummy! You should try it sometime. Might help YOUR thinking process.

I used to eat lungs and heart, in addition to "conventional" meat. I know what meat tastes like, I do love some meat, but I also realize it's not the most logical choice.

No offence meant, it's just that we seem to have a VERY different view on alimentation. I'll have to respect your view, and conclude that further communication on that topic between you and me is bound to stay unresolved.

I hope I didn't offend you. See you on the board,

Respectfully,

Swan

Originally posted by swanne
reply to post by theRhenn

 

Let's pretend here that you're right, and that eating meat has less danger than eating plants. Then you say,

EVERYTHING you eat will end up as CO2. Doh!!

Here you misunderstood PETA's information. What PETA is trying to make us realize, is that feeding for instance beef is more invasive to the environment than growing plants. Plants require water, a good soil, and will convert atmospheric CO2 to sugar and oxygen, which in turn strengthens the ozone layer and lets humans breathe. If mankind was to augment its demand for meat, more meat will have to be produced to meet demands. Because beef and most animals we eat rely on eating plants to survive, That means more of our graminea stocks won't be used to feed people, but beef and pork and chicken instead. More water will be used to both sustain the plants that the cattle eats and the cattle itself. Plus cattle convert this part of oxygen back to CO2. It takes far more energy to sustain cattle than plants.

Energy isn't everything. Cattle can digest lower grade plants than humans can. The large grass ranges, and even the corn belt, couldn't produce equal amounts (in energy) of human-palatable plant-based food .

reply to post by mbkennel


Actually, with modern techniques and basic terraforming, that isn't nesc. true.

How to Terraform

Basically, genetically modified soil crust micro-organism.

Besides adding nutrients to the soil, you can even control ambient temperature, reflected light wavelengths, and soil moisture evaporation. Think of it like a living super-fertilizer.

Except if you actually apply this technology you'll be committing a huge number of felonies and will be branded an ecological terrorist. Unless you are Monsanto.