New research shows crustaceans feel pain.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Who would be surprised at this "revelation?
Pleasure and its opposite, pain, are necessary components for a living system be it an elephant or an single-celled animal to survive. Rudimentary forms of biological intelligence. The use of pain is a shortcut to doing the right reaction to a stimuli rather than the creature having the particular knowledge about the experience to say, "Oh, I just know that is going to hurt so I'm not going to (touch, eat, or ignore) do it,

How much money did that research cost?

I would say many should be surprised. It is current theory that crustaceans don't feel pain because they lack a complex enoiugh nervous system. Do a search, you will see.

You can speculate that they feel pain, but without research like this you won't have evidence to over-turn current thinking.

Originally posted by Maslo
Here is another recent article about this topic, this time about fish:

phys.org...

That's cool. Sport fishing should be treated like rodeos with bull fighting. Illegal in this country because you are torturing and killing an animal for sport.

As far as fish feeling pain... they have a brain and complex enough nervous system to fit with current theories. They are already complex enough.

reply to post by Garkiniss

A negative and positive response does equal pain and pleasure.

Certainly not. There are countless responses to tissue damage, feeling pain is only one of them. Even in humans who are anestetised, most of these responses are intact and happen, be it chemical releases, physiological reponses or reflexes. According to your faulty logic, anesthetised humans feel pain..

When an insect attacks a plant, that plant immediately begins producing chemicals as a reaction. Those chemicals were released because something in that plant begans saying "Uh oh... that's not good, that's not good." The same thing happens with people. You get hurt, your brain responds/reacts, and you take steps to remove yourself from harm's way and reduce the pain.

That something is an unconscious, unsentient automatic process. Even in humans, overwhelming majority of tissue damage responses and chemical releases are unconscious, dont need any feeling or brain at all.

Plants resond to touch, to sound vibration, and to emotion. They react to threats and environmental changes, just like animals do.

My car reacts to physical insult with an alarm. Does not mean it is sentient or feels pain.

Again, a response alone does not prove anything about whether an organism feels pain.

Originally posted by gotya

Originally posted by benrl
what do you suppose a lion feels about ripping the legs off a gazelle?

We are apart of nature, not separate from it.

Are you a lion or an "evolved animal"?

A lion licks his own butthole. Do you lick your own butthole?

(i shouldn't ask such questions.)

edit on 8-8-2013 by gotya because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-8-2013 by gotya because: (no reason given)

Can't reach, but I'm sure it would be as addictive as say... well.. Just can't reach!

All that did was made me hungry for Red Lobster or Joe's Crab Shack.

Animals were put here for food. Why else would they exist? There is a whole food chain kicking, in case you forgot. Why stop now? I dont care for animal suffering any more than they care about mine. If I dont eat it, I wont harm it.. Unless it's dangerous and I'm in danger of being bitten or eaten. Spiders, Roaches, Wasps, and Rodents must die! All else... I'm at peace with. Unless I eat them, of course.

Rabbit, Squirl, Coon, Birds, Ducks, Cow, Pig, Fish, Seafood, your mom.. all not safe around me.

Deer... well, i dont like deer meat, so they're safe, unless they're hopping across the road at night when I just happen to be driving in that direction.

Originally posted by Maslo

Certainly not. There are countless responses to tissue damage, feeling pain is only one of them. Even in humans who are anestetised, most of these responses are intact and happen, be it chemical releases, physiological reponses or reflexes. According to your faulty logic, anesthetised humans feel pain..

Anesthetics are known to cease the healing process. So not only does it stop your pain response, it also stops your healing response as well. So much for faulty logic. Any surgeon knows to administer anesthetics as far away from the wound as possible.

Again, a response alone does not prove anything about whether an organism feels pain.

edit on 9/8/13 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

The International Association for the Study of Pain's widely used definition states: "Pain is an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage."

We've already established plants react to emotion stimuli, and can recognize tissue damage. We also know that plants can be stimulated by touch and/or heal from damage. To differentiate the two, it must first decide if it has been pleasantly stimulated or injured.

How exactly, do you think that decision occurs?

Originally posted by theRhenn
I dont care for animal suffering

That pretty sums it up.

So you don't care about other life-forms. You don't see how they are "useful", so your attitude is to kill them.

How do you think Hitler killed the jews? He too didn't see how some life forms, namely those who had semitic origin, were "useful".

People like you are the reason why there are so many species facing extinction.

try pouring fresh water on lobsters that have been out of the water for a while to see that they do feel pain it is like acid to them

reply to post by Garkiniss

Anesthetics are known to cease the healing process. So not only does it stop your pain response, it also stops your healing response as well. So much for faulty logic. Any surgeon knows to administer anesthetics as far away from the wound as possible.

Source, please. I have administered anesthetics many times and this is news to me. Altough I only do minor surgeries. In fact, anesthetic has vasoconstrictive additives which is why it is desired to administer it into the area of surgery to reduce bleeding.

And it is still faulty logic. An anesthetic certainly does not stop all tissue damage responses. Pain is only one kind of a response and feeling of pain is a specific process at the end of pain pathway happening in central nervous system. No CNS, no pain.

The International Association for the Study of Pain's widely used definition states: "Pain is an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage."

There is no good evidence that plants are capable of having an unpleasant experience, or any experience at all fro that matter. So they dont feel pain by IASP definition.

To differentiate the two, it must first decide if it has been pleasantly stimulated or injured. How exactly, do you think that decision occurs?

In humans, whether the experience is pleasant or unpleasant is decided in higher brain. In plants, no such structure is known, they dont even have nervous system.

Originally posted by benrl
what do you suppose a lion feels about ripping the legs off a gazelle?

We are apart of nature, not separate from it.

Thank you! With massive brains comes the abilities to inflict serious damage on lesser creations. And while I agree, we are part of nature, our knowledge should give us the insight to understand that ripping someones legs off (no matter what that may be) isn't nice.

The lion doesn't understand, he lives in a kill or die environment. We humans have grown beyond that stage. There is no need to inflict more pain upon something then necessary. If we can humanely kill something, why not do so?

In summary: Just because we can, we shouldn't. Even though we're part of the food chain like a lion.

Originally posted by swanne

Originally posted by theRhenn
I dont care for animal suffering

That pretty sums it up.

So you don't care about other life-forms. You don't see how they are "useful", so your attitude is to kill them.

How do you think Hitler killed the jews? He too didn't see how some life forms, namely those who had semitic origin, were "useful".

People like you are the reason why there are so many species facing extinction.

Why are you adding to what I've said, when I obviously didn't say that... You're one of those people, huh...

I see all wildlife as useful. I did mention the food chain.. I just dont give a rats ass about a lobster screaming when I throw him in a pot of scolding hot water. He's going to be my food. He gave up his life so I could have mine. Grapes are alive... Why dont you have a problem with me eating those? They dont feel? How do you know? When you break a leaf from the plant, it dies.. So surely it must feel in some way, shape or other. Either way.. Unless I'm walking about killing animals for no reason, you dont have a dog in this fight.

When you compare animals with humans as being on the same level... I consider you a crazy person. One that's so bloody simpathetic to animals that you devalue HUMAN life. How dare you comparing me killing a duck for food with hitler killing Jews. What an uncaring, no value to human life, ass of a statement!

Oh... I shouldn't kill ducks because I can just go to the store and buy meat.. animal acivist bitch about that too.

So then I should just be a vegan? Hardley. Who on this planet has the right to tell me what I can and cannot eat? That kind of socialist, self important, bull cocky thinking is far worse than the lack of sympathy for killing an animal.

You know what.. If I were hungry and needed to... I'd eat your dog, your cat and your pet canary too!



P.S.. People like YOU are the reason why regular people have to give up their rights and their property and sometimes starve to death so people like you can feel like you saved a life... THATS NOT EVEN HUMAN.

I bet you would save a goldfish and condem a race of people to do it, if it meant that one had to go for the sake of the other. That's exactly what you're telling me.

P.S.S.. If you're going to quote me.. Dont pick and choose what you want to see... Use the whole context of my response. I can pick you apart with BS tactics like you just demonstrated and make up whatever I want to put you in a different light.

reply to post by Maslo




Again, you're making assumptions on how you think a plant should processes information based on how you know animals do. It's a logical fallacy, and one you seem incapable of getting over.

Originally posted by Garkiniss
reply to post by Maslo

 

Again, you're making assumptions on how you think a plant should processes information based on how you know animals do. It's a logical fallacy, and one you seem incapable of getting over.

Some studies also go with the idea that plants do in fact have a 'nervous system' and 'feel' pain. That's kind of problematic in a way, as it can include a pain/fear/survival factor. Plants though don't have much choice, apart from poison since they are static, but then all plants are not poisonous. I guess humans are just conveniently ignorant.

reply to post by kmb08753


I would say this has more to do with "sports" like hunting and fishing and nothing to do with things that happen as a result of us eating.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by kmb08753

 

I would say this has more to do with "sports" like hunting and fishing and nothing to do with things that happen as a result of us eating.

Elwood specifically mentions how lobsters are processed, how crabs are kept with bound claws, and prawns are skewered alive. However, he seems particularly keen on raising awareness for ethical treatment of animals. I think this could apply to both, sport killing and humane food processing.

Maybe I misunderstood your reply.

Originally posted by kmb08753

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by kmb08753

 

I would say this has more to do with "sports" like hunting and fishing and nothing to do with things that happen as a result of us eating.

Elwood specifically mentions how lobsters are processed, how crabs are kept with bound claws, and prawns are skewered alive. However, he seems particularly keen on raising awareness for ethical treatment of animals. I think this could apply to both, sport killing and humane food processing.

Maybe I misunderstood your reply.

I am not against more humane treatment of animals. Does binding claws cause pain? Skewered alive would be something mankind has had to do to animals for as long as we have been around to get food. I am all for more humane alternatives though if there is a better way.

This whole "animals feel pain" crap is getting old. Certainly, every living thing experiences life in different ways - but most living things have nerves which detect some form of sensation. Humans are the only ones that acknowledge it in other species.

Of course, there are the sadistic people (and animals) who seemingly enjoy inflicting pain - and that's something we should study (not certain if it can or should be fixed).

An anecdote involving two cats.

My cat - Polly - loved catching birds. She never killed a single one - but she sure enjoyed toying with them. She would catch them, lick their heads, get them all freaked out - then she'd back away slowly and watch. The second the bird took flight - she would bat it out of the air and start the process over again until she got bored.

My brother had a cat (don't remember its name) that would catch shrews (tiny - mole like creatures). She would bat them around, throw them in the air and batter them back to the ground over and over again until they stopped moving - then she would eat them.

I'm not sure which cat was the more sadistic of the two and I don't really care. On two separate occasions I saw two different cats engage in the same type of sadistic behavior. These experiences lead me to believe that some creatures are hard-wired for this type of activity.

Personally - I have to employ reason and logic when I kill an animal, and I've killed quite a few. I see no reason for an animal to suffer, so I employ the quickest method to dispatch them when its their time. My chickens live well - but when it's time for the cleaver, the cleaver is what they get. Tomorrow, my wife and I have around 30 quail to process for meat - a process that takes 5 minutes per bird. Without getting into gruesome detail - the birds death is over in seconds (not counting the time it takes for the heart to stop beating).

Killing an animal isn't something I look forward to - but it's the way it goes. Predators take lives, and those of us who eat meat should recognize where the meat comes from and what it takes to get it. After all, we're the most dangerous and successful predator on the planet.

reply to post by theRhenn

Text. I just dont give a rats ass about a lobster screaming when I throw him in a pot of scolding hot water. He's going to be my food.

Are you some kind of a psychopath? It is one thing to advocate against eating meat, leave that one for vegetarians, I dont think it is unethical. But animal abuse is definitely unethical, usualy illegal, and for a good reason. If you have to kill, do it in a most humane manner possible. What a crazy post. Swanne has a point and it flew right over your head.

Originally posted by Garkiniss
reply to post by Maslo

 

Again, you're making assumptions on how you think a plant should processes information based on how you know animals do. It's a logical fallacy, and one you seem incapable of getting over.

And I could argue the reverse, you are making assumptions about how plants process information based on how higher animals do it. I am not saying plants certainly dont feel pain, it is not even possible to prove a negative, more so when it has to do with subjective experiences. All I am saying is that there is no good reason to believe they do, and many reasons to believe they dont. When you post better evidence than chemical X being released, we may argue. Until then, lets just agree to disagree..

Originally posted by theRhenn
P.S.. People like YOU are the reason why regular people have to give up their rights and their property and sometimes starve to death so people like you can feel like you saved a life... THATS NOT EVEN HUMAN.

Starvation is not caused by that. This only goes on to show how much of the real world you miss. You seem to think that if we don't kill animals, people will starve to death. The real world is not that way. In the real world, the body needs carbohydrates, which is found in vegan sources (you see - cells in your body and in your brain work by destructing glucose chains so to harvest the energy), such as beans and corn and wheat. Milk and eggs will give you the rest of the components the body needs.

Your justification for killing animals is moot.