Four things I can't get past, and neither should you

1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

I'll address just the last of your four points, because it's the one I see most often and has the least credibility.

Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

Non of my deities promised to do so.

Originally posted by jiggerj
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

Agreed. Without imminence, I see no proof. I see imminence, therefor I do. The existence of the universe means that the universe exists. Though the universe is worthy of reverence, in and of itself. The beautiful way Neil Tyson describes the cosmos is borderline religious.

Originally posted by jiggerj
3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

Oh, I see. You're one of those. Just so you know, "religion" does not equal "Abrahamic faith".

Originally posted by jiggerj
4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Again, see above.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

...

ok, from now one, when people are specifically picking on Christians, can we just say "Christians" to specify?

Originally posted by jiggerj
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

Then I'll take the second, GodIsRelative. How silly that comparison is JJ. I know you can think better than that. The universe--and the concept behind intelligent design--are like finding matches and gasoline residue at the scene. They didn't get there by themselves, ahem.

reply to post by jiggerj


1. I agree with this point, but it still doesn't prove miracles don't exist. I'd say that life itself is a miracle in itself.

2. I think the universe is evidence of some sort of higher force. Something cannot come from nothing.

3. I'm not sure what your point is with this one. The ten commandments are only a list of things that are ingrained in our psyche from birth.

4. I'm pretty sure we would have been a lot better off without the invention of gods. I think the animal kingdom is a perfect example of this.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj

 

4. I'm pretty sure we would have been a lot better off without the invention of a god. I think the animal kingdom is a perfect example of this.

Does that mean you think that we'd be better off without the ability to reason? You know, like the animal kingdom?

reply to post by GodIsRelative


Sure. When's the last time you ever saw an animal bomb another country, start a war, or shoot up a movie theater or shopping mall?

Are you saying we are better off with the ability to reason? I think the world around you proves that notion wrong.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by GodIsRelative

 

Sure. When's the last time you ever saw an animal bomb another country, start a war, or shoot up a movie theater or shopping mall?

Are you saying we are better off with the ability to reason? I think the world around you proves that notion wrong.

Exactly the abillity to reason lets you think humans are outside of nature, and that everything they do is not part of it...

Dolphins kidnap, rape, and murder their own, not all is peachy keen in the animal kingdom, sure theirs not genocides or anything but give dolphins thumbs and I bet they'd get to it.

reply to post by jiggerj

1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

We don't know that for a fact Jigger. I don't know about you, but I haven't been present throughout history for every miracle. But I will agree, I personally, have never seen a limb grow back. Nor do I know anyone who has witnessed such an event.

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

I don't necessarily see this being a problem. Miracles have brought people back from the dead (if the Bible is to be believed - that's another topic for another day though). Which would you rather have? Life, or a limb? Likewise, miracles are not a commonplace event - otherwise, they wouldn't BE miraculous... so this complaint seems a little petty considering what miracles HAVE occurred.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

This is true if, and only if, there are multiple potential causes for the universe.
A forest fire has multiple potential causes. Arson is one, yes, but there are many natural causes, and no intelligent actor is required.
Creation itself, however, is immensely complex (as opposed to fire, which is inherently destructive as opposed to creative), so the primary cause needs to be likewise complex. Whether you view the primary agent of creation as being an intelligent creator, or an unintelligent process over billions of years, is up to you. The evidence is all around you, and you'll have to make up your own mind... but to suggest that believing in a creative, powerful God is irrational isn't accurate.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

Agreed. Though again, I don't see why this is an issue. The ten commandments are a set of fairly basic laws for living, and were never intended to be anything other than that. If you read through the Bible, you'll find that God didn't just give ten commandments to Israel, He gave them 613. The remainder of those laws (which apply specifically to the nation/state of Israel, and not to humanity in a broader sense) are often revolutionary in terms of ancient and middle-eastern culture, particularly in terms of what they knew scientifically and what they didn't. I won't go into that any further (for time and space reasons), but there has been much written on the topic if you care to look.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Let's assume that you're correct on this. Let's assume that the world is in worse shape since God was... well, let's use the word "revealed" to Israel.

The problem you run into with that argument is that... this is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. It's exactly what the Bible said would happen. Jesus is not and was not an immediate "quick fix" to the problems that every man and his dog faces throughout their lifetime. There is a much greater, broader issue at work than my own local concerns. That's not to suggest that God doesn't care about those concerns; He does... but that's not the crux of the Biblical story.

The Bible teaches that there is a problem inherent to the heart of man: sin. That is, we're incapable of following God's law to perfection, and as a result, we have created a gap between God and man that cannot be crossed. God can't have imperfection before Him, and likewise it would destroy us to be in His presence, and remain sinful. But what man couldn't do, and can't do, in bridging that gap, God did... sending Jesus Christ to fix that problem once and for all.

This, though, is one of those "now, but not yet" concepts that we find in the Bible. The work is done, but not complete. Jesus sorted everything out on the cross, yes, but that didn't instantly make the world better - nor was it intended to. The Bible's story extends far beyond that - beyond even our own time, into the future of this world. For now, the Bible says, God waits patiently for as many as possible to believe in Him, before Christ returns and "wraps things up", so to speak.

So the intent and purpose of the gospel is not to remove suffering. That will happen, but that's not the point. The point was to deal with the root cause of suffering: sin. While you may not value that, and would rather have the "quick fix" here and now, it wouldn't solve the problem of your eternal wellbeing!

reply to post by benrl


Out of all the animals, you chose the one (other than humans) that has the best ability to reason? Dolphins are the smartest animal on the planet right behind humans.

It may not be 100% "peachy", but it's a hell of a lot more balanced and peaceful than human society. The Abrahamic god caused division the moment he chose the Israelites as his "chosen" ones. Same with any other religion that claims they are the only ones who go to heaven or wherever else.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by benrl

 

than human society.

Which is just as much "part of nature" as anything else on the planet, the ability to reason is also part of nature.

If we are going off no divine entity as the OP suggest, than we will just have to wait to see how this whole reason thing works out. If humans wipe ourselves off (we might) than guess what it was a mistake, if we go on to spread and reproduce, than its fine.

In nature death is common place, a human death is no more or less important than any other animal death in the eco system.

ETA: I would go a step further and base the "environmental" cost of a human, that a human death is better for "nature" than say other animals, I would also list cows dying as important due to the methane cost.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Out of all the animals, you chose the one (other than humans) that has the best ability to reason? Dolphins are the smartest animal on the planet right behind humans.

Almost sounds like you're ready to heap blame on the dolphin now, too.

It may not be 100% "peachy", but it's a hell of a lot more balanced and peaceful than human society. The Abrahamic god caused division the moment he chose the Israelites as his "chosen" ones. Same with any other religion that claims they are the only ones who go to heaven or wherever else.

Ummm...pssst...there was already a loooong history of division before that. You knew that didn't you?

* JiggerJ stirs up some shizzle, sits back and watches the swords clash in battle from a safe distance. Waits to count the dead and wounded and then try and find a weak target. *

Jesus did make Malchus ear grow back, which is close enough for me. You're right... the universe is not proof of God, but then again there is no proof, or there would be no reason for faith because faith only exists when there is no proof. If the Ten Commandments are so common sense then why are there so many murders? Why do so many people cheat on their spouse? etc... Not so common sense after all. I'm not sure what a "desert god" is, but the shape the world is in is not God's fault... it is Man's fault. Man chose to sin... Man chose to disobey God and the world we live in is the result, but for the believer, the shape this world is in is irrelevant because this world is only a temporary stop before eternity with God. Jesus said in John 16:33 ...."in this world you will face tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" That is his promise to the believer, but I'm sure that your mind is already made up and you aren't interested in hearing about that. Hopefully you change your mind before it is too late.

Well, I guess I live by the words of an old Baptist minister neighbour, who used to come over for tea.
When discussing God, he said "God cannot be proven. You either choose to believe...or you choose not to believe".
I thought those were very wise words, from a very well educated man...and I've chosen that line of thinking myself. I don't insult believers or non-believers....and I respect anyone I've known who has that 'faith'.
jacygirl

reply to post by benrl


I'm not arguing that humans are not a part of nature, we most definitely are, I'm just saying that we are the part that is infected or diseased.

Just like with a flesh eating bacteria, if the part of the body that is infected isn't cut off, it runs the risk of infecting the rest of the body. We are the Earth's equivalent of a flesh eating bacteria. We take more than we need, then we take even more. Nature isn't "supposed" to be that way, it's supposed to live in balance.

Matthew 6
26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

This is the way nature is supposed to work, and we have disrupted its balance with our greed. We should not take any more than we need, yet we do.

reply to post by The GUT


What have the dolphins done that is in danger of destroying the world? I never placed any blame on dolphins.

And guess what, Yahweh kept that tradition going! I never even insinuated that Yahweh started it. Instead of unifying people, he decided to pick a small group of people as his chosen people. That would automatically imply that the Israelites were better than others, which would only add to the division.

Here are my four things:

1. Father is Aleph Bet (Alphabet) DNA

2. The Son of God is the Word (Bet Nun - House of the Seed). We are the Sons of God.

3. The mother is Aleph Mem (Strong Water - Baptism). Immersion into the waters of life is involution.

4. You must be born again and Earth is a refinery (Deuteronomy 4:19). You are involved into the water so you can rise to new life. This is the process of a refinery. You are the ore being smelted into gold.

Life is tough. Get over it. Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." Before you can understand, you need an environment to crash and burn from all angles. Quite possibly, you will overcome the law when love is found. You can't rise until you have a place to fall down over and over again. The true miracle is when you finally wake up and remember your true home by seeking faith, hope and love. We are children of God until we are no longer children.

You are judging this world according to what is seen. The true value of life is seeing what is unseen. Ask a child if they want a dime or nickle. They choose the one that is larger in size. Ask an older child and they choose the one with the value that is not seen, but only known.

2 Corinthians 5

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Where is this home and who are you in this image reflecting your true nature?

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

What will we be like when we emerge from this place into your true estate above?

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

What is the point of life? We are here, immersed into the waters, so we can rise to new life. It all ends at the resurrection when we are salvaged from the water. You are complaining about the water and the fact that we do not know anything beyond what we can observe here. Can you see a vast universe beyond? See the value and then become that value to others. It's the only point of life worth mentioning.

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

What about Hindu gods? Do you guys have a problem with Hindu gods too? Because all I ever hear atheists talk about is how full of crap Abrahamic religions are. Nevermind the fact that a majority of people on this planet do not come from Abrahamic traditions.

If, as a die-hard atheist, you want to impress people... let's hear all about how you think Confucianism is BS. I'd love to hear THAT.