keeping god out of official pledges

reply to post by kozmo


If you think this country was founded on some kind of religious principles other than "freedom of religion" you would be incorrect.

Also, insinuating someone better get right with "God" before they experience harm in the coming "religious wars" sounds not only crazy, but belligerant. And if your "faith" is based on fear of getting some kind of celestial spanking it sounds like a really deep and meaningful part of your life.

But I suppose anyone who actually expects those who do not follow their religion to abide by their superstitious oaths and pledges, and if they don't they are "disrespectin' the Lord", cannot be reasoned with on this point.

reply to post by redoubt

Besides all that, if one doesn't believe in a said god (or gods), then swearing to them any oath shouldn't hurt that much. I mean, if they (the god or gods) aren't looking down, then why all the animosity? It's harmless... unless one feels threatened by something that does not exist, lol.

How could a jury trust the testimony of an individual that lies during the oath that take, swearing to a god, that they don't believe in, to tell the truth? Where's the integrity in that?

Forcing someone to go with with status quo and pretend to believe in something that they don't IS NOT freedom of religion.

reply to post by dontaskmeimfrommars


You hit the nail on the head. It's sort of like the American flag. The flag is not to be worn as clothing, displayed in a tattered state, is to be taken down at sunset or during a rain and yet how many people actually know this?

Now, back to religion. See what happens when man decides he knows how to please, worship and honor God better than God himself knows? I'm a believer, but take God out of the government and off our money (He probably doesn't want to be associated with such corruption anyways). I don't need crosses in every hospital or the Ten Commandments in front of a court house to reinforce my belief system. I know what's right and do my best to do it, with help from above (I know I fail a lot but we're all human, that's just part of it). As far as a nation who follows God, I think that verse means a nation full of people who honor and worship- print religious words on every government document, but it won't matter if the people aren't living right.

Finally, as for the cadet who got his panties all in a wadd and wouldn't take the pledge- good grief. Just say the darn oath and move on with your life. Is it really necessary to make a federal case out of 4 little words? Not to me it isn't. His life must be really smooth sailing if he's got enough time to make such a fuss about God. I bet this cadet is a real hoot at parties. Not. I have a feeling he's a real buzz kill.

Originally posted by Malynn
reply to post by kozmo

 

If you think this country was founded on some kind of religious principles other than "freedom of religion" you would be incorrect.

Also, insinuating someone better get right with "God" before they experience harm in the coming "religious wars" sounds not only crazy, but belligerant. And if your "faith" is based on fear of getting some kind of celestial spanking it sounds like a really deep and meaningful part of your life.

But I suppose anyone who actually expects those who do not follow their religion to abide by their superstitious oaths and pledges, and if they don't they are "disrespectin' the Lord", cannot be reasoned with on this point.

Let's get a few things straight, because you are sadly mistaken or grossly misinformed.

Do you have any clue why the PURITANS came to America? Have you even read ANY of our founding documents? Apparently not! The first freaking sentence in the Declaration of Independence invokes God! The second sentence describes our inalienable rights as "Endowed by our Creator"! Without using Google, I'd be hard pressed to believe that you even know who authored our founding documents!

Your second paragraph is cute, misinformed and ignorant, but a cute attempt to obfuscate none-the-less.

Finally, you and your ilk are more than welcome to "Disrespect the Lord". I'm not His keeper and He granted unto you freedom of choice. He'll deal with you at your time of Judgment. What I'm talking about is disrespecting the MAJORITY of Americans. I'm talking about disrespecting values and traditions. I challenge you to point out where you attempt to "reason" with anyone!?!?

All I continue to see are snarky comments and full on ignorance. You embrace it well!

What I find amusing...well not really...is the some of the same people who are insisting that others respect the institute of marriage for the homosexual community are the same ones that have no respect for others religious beliefs. I do not understand. Why can't we all just allow others to live their lives. If two men want to get married, so be it. If a company wants to pay its CEO billions of dollars....oh well. If people want to practice any religion or no religion, again, let them be. If you do not agree, then do not participate. If you choose to join a job, group, school, anything, then you need to know what is going to be required of you to do so.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


by the tone of your rant it just sounds like you wanted to make this thread to say that anyone who believes in a god is delusional

i think you are delusional in not even thinking you could be wrong.


Does it really matter what they make you say it a stupid pledge.

Nothing on this world matters.. your rant, his pledge, your thoughts. nothing matters.

you will hate rant cry and whine and then you do die.. everything you did will have mean nothing. .

There are a lot of 'God' references in the US which, as a non-believing non-American, I find amusing.

But it's similar in other places.

I can still be called upon to place my hand on a bible in a court of law and "swear by Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

As an agnostic, this ancient little ritual doesn't carry quite the same compelling authority as it would do for a believer; obviously it makes no difference to me whether I'm touching a bible or a Jackie Collins novel as I am reciting the meaningless utterance.

I'm just surprised that anyone would think it would....the judge, for instance.

But lots of non-believers still opt to get married in church 'for the sense of occasion', which is absolutely fine.

It's a bit of antiquated silliness which I'm happy to put up with.

There are far worse things in this horrible world to get hot under the collar about.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


'God" in the Pledge, or any oath, represents the highest accountability. God means many different things to many different people, but 'God' always represents the highest accord. So is the issue, ultimately, that certain people just don't want to be held to account?

Or, I guess, since the word means nothing to them, are they afraid that they are not being held accountable at all? We could quibble over the meaning of many words found in oaths, because those words mean different things to different people, but this one word is a sore point for some, not because of what it means to them, but more so because of what it means to others.

wow - just WOW - the responses objecting to my OP are just " amazing " - it truly is mind blowing that any one thinks that lying is acceptable while taking an oath of allegence

as for my attitude towards theists - it is a direct response to theists who attempted to force a cadet to lie , or lose his commission

and what is worse - their threats were illegal

so much for theistic morality

thanks for playing folks

PS - big thrumbs up to the people who actually understand how utterly assanine such insistence on ramming theistic mumbo jumbo into areas it does not belong

I'll probably be flamed by a few people for this, but what the non-denominational afterlife for the morally unacceptable...I was a firefighter for most of a decade, flames and I get along fine.

With all due respect to the OP (calculating the amount of respect due is an exercise I will leave to the reader), I find the attitude of the strident atheist every bit as irritating as I find the bellowing of the overwrought televangelist. You don't like the idea that the word "God" shows up in official oaths, documents, or mottoes? You have a right to your belief, and even to your irritation, but for not-Heaven's sake, I am bloody (apologies to our Australian / British folks) tired of respect for religious / philosophical belief being a one-way street. Listen to yourself. We should remove God from every aspect of our society? Why? Because it offends you? Because we must respect *your* belief? Don't you have a moral / philosophical obligation to respect others' beliefs? What a silly, silly idea, I know. Everyone must respect your philosophy because you are Right...and you can disrespect theirs because they are Wrong.

That's *exactly* the kind of thinking, ironically enough, that brings out the worst of religious fanaticism.

Now that I've vented a bit, here's some practical advice for the practicing atheist:
1) Do some research on the origin of the doctrine of separation of Church and State. Those words might not mean what you think they do.

2) If using the phrase "so help me God" or any of its analogues bothers you (for example, swearing before a court), I have *yet* to sit in a jurisdiction where the court hasn't been willing to accommodate a request for an alternate oath, so long as the request for same was made respectfully and in proper form. Oddly enough, given the story you cite, I was lucky enough to attend the swearing-in of a college friend of mine as a Naval officer, and he had no problem at all arranging an alternate oath.

3) Remember that any call to universally ban or remove something from society sets a dangerous precedent. Before calling for such action, you should weigh the personal satisfaction you might gain against the damage done to the concept of freedom in general.

OP, I completely agree with the idea that such statements should be removed from our pledges, money and oaths. I am sickened by many of the responses I've seen on here which showcases some of the ignorance that is our society today.
As far as the notion that there is a 2% population of non-believers, that is most certainly false and is a lot closer to 10%. This is especially true when one considers the number of people who claim to have religious beliefs to prevent ostracization or worse in many societies/communities.
And thankfully, it's on the rise:
atheistempire.com...
articles.washingtonpost.com...

If I am forced to state such a belief or testament to something that which I do not believe in, then I have instantly lied. If one swears upon a book that they have no fealty to, then what does this prove?? It might as well be Green Eggs and Ham that my hand is resting upon.

Much like the dinner prayers that should be thanking the farmers, truckers and markets, or even themselves for providing the meal instead of some unseen cosmic lord's bounty magically delivered unto them for sustenance.

And believers: What of those of different faiths? They still have to swear to a God that certainly doesn't fit their belief systems. Do you just imagine that they are swearing the oaths to your Christian God as they do so?

One of the few reassuring things that bring me peace of mind in this lifetime is how atheism is growing and will continue to grow as more and more people think for themselves, read and learn over time until eventually, religious belief will fall away like the silly, self-righteous fantasies that they are.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
-Shakespeare

# 30

Originally posted by kozmo
You'd be smart to recognize that you are a very teeny-tiny minority who does not believe in a higher power - less than 2% of the population - and shrinking quickly I should add. Given that we are likely, in our lifetimes, to enter into a civil war driven by ideology, you'd be smart to acknowledge that you are playing for the losing team and perhaps behave accordingly!

The founding fathers would beat you to death with your own shoes for making this statement about minorities.

The U.S was founded in such a way as to prevent the majority lording over the minority. Further to this, on a state my state level the numbers are much higher than 2%, and on a national level they are estimated to be growing and are above 2%. We would actually know more about this but Atheists have been discriminated against for the better part of a thousand years.

Who knows how much wisdom came from Atheist writers and was never credited?

Side note: There is nothing tolerant (or Christian) about threatening a minority with physical violence after a seemingly desired civil war comes.

Originally posted by adjensen
It just says "God", it doesn't specify who, or what, "God" is. Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian, but he most certainly was a theist -- or do you propose removing God from the Declaration of Independence and going back to the days of "there are no inherent rights, just those granted by the king/government"?

lo adjensen!

Almost feel like I should make a separate post for this, but in a historical context I'm not sure events in the 1700s should influence what we do and believe today that much. If Jefferson did come out as an Atheist I doubt he would ever have stayed in government, so I'm not sure it is relevant? I suppose it worries me that Americans cling to snippets of quotes from these men when historically it wasn't a smart idea to be an Atheist, though Jefferson was close friends with some.

I also don't think it follows that rights are therefore granted by king or governance. People are far more educated now than they ever have been. Why do they have to come from anyone?

Originally posted by TheWhiteKnight
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
-Shakespeare

# 30

"... But we're working on it."
-Science

Mostly jokes! Don't want to start that debate here. ;p

Originally posted by kozmo
Secondly, what makes you the authority on whether or not God exists???

More importantly, which god are they referring to? I hope it's not that Egyptian one on the US $1 note just right of the words "in god we trust"...

Originally posted by kozmo
You'd be smart to recognize that you are a very teeny-tiny minority who does not believe in a higher power - less than 2% of the population - and shrinking quickly I should add.

Well, I wouldn't say the number of atheists is shrinking quickly ....

A new poll suggests that 1 in 20 Americans now call themselves atheists, a fivefold increase from the last time the survey was taken in 2005.

slatest.slate.com...

Of course you could always check with the census info from 2012 which shows it around 1.5%
however if you look this has increased from 0.8% only 23 yrs ago.

source

Originally posted by kozmo
First of all, It's "Kool-Aid", not "Cool-aid". DUH!

Secondly, what makes you the authority on whether or not God exists???

Finally, if you'd like to have a constructive conversation regarding the founding principles of America, so be it. But might I suggest you drop the insults, sarcasm and attacks. You'd be smart to recognize that you are a very teeny-tiny minority who does not believe in a higher power - less than 2% of the population - and shrinking quickly I should add. Given that we are likely, in our lifetimes, to enter into a civil war driven by ideology, you'd be smart to acknowledge that you are playing for the losing team and perhaps behave accordingly!

Um no...

Poll shows atheism on the rise in the U.S.

Religiosity is on the decline in the U.S. and atheism is on the rise, according to a new worldwide poll.

The poll, called “The Global Index of Religiosity and Atheism,” found that the number of Americans who say they are “religious” dropped from 73 percent in 2005 (the last time the poll was conducted) to 60 percent.

At the same time, the number of Americans who say they are atheists rose, from 1 percent to 5 percent.

Wanted to get that unsited claim debunked first, now onto the OP. I'm an agnostic, yet I could care less if I swear to God or not. It's just a word just like any other in the pledge to me. I could swear to a purple hippo in the sky for all I care, it would still mean the same to me. Nothing. I'm not sure why so many atheists get up in arms about this. If they don't believe in god then saying his name or swearing to him should be the same as saying "I'm going to go buy a book today." Meanwhile, keeping the word in there placates the believers. Seems like a win-win to me. Atheists are just making a mountain out of a molehill.

Originally posted by johnb
Of course you could always check with the census info from 2012 which shows it around 1.5%
however if you look this has increased from 0.8% only 23 yrs ago.

source

I didn't see numbers from 2012 in your link - only 1990, 2001, 2008. Regardless, the number of atheists is increasing, not decreasing.

reply to post by Pinke


Get a clue! No one "Threatened" anyone with violence. I'm not aware of any roving bands of "Christians" beating atheists. I am, however, aware of intolerant a**holes running around defacing churches, holy sites and continuously attacking people of faith.

How long do you think it will take before those being attacked decide to stand up for their beliefs? Keep poking and I fear you'll find out!

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Yeah, let's do that. Let's get to the bottom of the "Un-[c]ited" numbers.

2.1%

1.6%

Atheism in Global Decline

Now, I know that all of the God-hating liberals have published stories about how Atheism is increasing - much to their excitement. Sadly, they cannot support it with any data - well, not unless they loop in Agnostics (Which is entirely different) and also use the decline of organized religion.

What most Atheist fail to understand is that lack of membership in a "Church" does not equate to "Atheism" NOR "Agnosticism". Poll after poll demonstrate that Spirituality is on the rise. Belief in "God" is on the rise.

I know it makes them crazy! But, facts is facts is facts is facts.