An Orthopedic Surgeon Explains Her Faith In Creation

reply to post by edmc^2


You are only playing word games when you talk about belief in evolution. When something has tangible evidence behind it, it doesn't require personal belief to be true. Belief is a choice, so yeah, anybody can disbelieve proven science if they'd like. It makes the person illogical, it doesn't make the science a belief system. Of course scientists and most intelligent people believe science to be true. That doesn't make it a belief system because it is based on facts not faith.

Do you believe in gravity?

Do you believe the earth revolves around the sun?

Are either of those 2 things a belief system?

If so, than everything in the universe is a belief system, including the sky appearing blue. Physics, stars, gravity, supernovae, nebulae, galaxies, and auto mechanics are all just belief systems. Good thing my mechanic has strong faith when it comes to rebuilding engines.

Originally posted by Barcs
reply to post by edmc^2

 

You are only playing word games when you talk about belief in evolution. When something has tangible evidence behind it, it doesn't require personal belief to be true. Belief is a choice, so yeah, anybody can disbelieve proven science if they'd like. It makes the person illogical, it doesn't make the science a belief system. Of course scientists and most intelligent people believe science to be true. That doesn't make it a belief system because it is based on facts not faith.

Do you believe in gravity?

Do you believe the earth revolves around the sun?

Are either of those 2 things a belief system?

If so, than everything in the universe is a belief system, including the sky appearing blue. Physics, stars, gravity, supernovae, nebulae, galaxies, and auto mechanics are all just belief systems. Good thing my mechanic has strong faith when it comes to rebuilding engines.

edit on 12-8-2013 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

Not sure what you mean Barcs.

I'm not the one playing word games here when talking about belief in evolution. To the contrary, the proponents of evolution theory are the ones playing word games.

I mean why can't any of you just say, "yes I believe evolution is a fact"?

"Yes, I believe in evolution!". "Yes, of course, I believe evolution!"

What's the big deal?

Instead I get this:

"evolution is NOT something you believe in, it's something you understand".

As to these:

Do you believe in gravity?

Do you believe the earth revolves around the sun?

Are either of those 2 things a belief system?

Of course, since I understand those two things, I believe them as facts!

How do I know them as facts?

Well I have a SYSTEM. It's called Scientific Observation.

By means of scientific observation using instruments and mathematics (F = Gm1m2/r2), I believe them as facts!

As to "faith", do you know that it also has something to do with confidence, assurance and "faith in oneself"?

For example, I have confidence and faith that my scientific observation is 100% accurate and reliable based on an "assured expectation" that what goes up must come down and that the planet earth will revolve around the sun 365 (+) days a year (pause, I almost ran out of air).

I believe in this system.


How about you Barcs, do have confidence, do you have "faith in yourself" that what scientists said about evolution is the truth? If so by how much? 100% or 50/50?



Just like your mechanic, do you fully trust him? Do you have "faith" in his ability to fix your car? How do you know that he can fix your car without seeing him working on an engine let alone your?

How do you know, what system do you use to confirm this fact?

As you can see Barcs, there's no play of words here, just common sense and logical reasoning.


ELementary my dear Watson.

Give it up sheeple - ya just can't argue your way out with L O G I C, Common Sense And most of all the T R U T H.

Praise Jah!

Originally posted by edmc^2
Give it up sheeple - ya just can't argue your way out with L O G I C, Common Sense And most of all the T R U T H.

Praise Jah!

Ok, I give up. All hail the magical, invisible, undetectable and unnecessary sky man!

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by edmc^2
Give it up sheeple - ya just can't argue your way out with L O G I C, Common Sense And most of all the T R U T H.

Praise Jah!

Ok, I give up. All hail the magical, invisible, undetectable and unnecessary sky man!

Give up too easy.

I guess that's to be expected if one has a very weak stand.

Originally posted by edmc^2

Of course I payed attention to what you said.

Bottom line is what's the point of understanding something WITHOUT believing in it?

Lol two lines into your reply and boom straight back to repeating the same claim over and over despite how many times it's been explained to you that what your attempting to do is completely and utterly nonsensical.......boy you creationists are great (in disaster movie kind of way).

Under your definition anything and everything is a 'belief system', and the phrase loses all meaning.

And while you may not have any affiliation with Ray Comfort or his version of Christianity, you certainly endorse his dishonest methods.

But maybe you could answer this:

Whilst 'using' logic and your common sense to believe in your invisible skydaddie, do you think it'll be impressed with your dishonestly in your attempts to manipulate people in this thread with nothing more than semantics?

Or this:

In your opinion what are the differences between 'faith', 'confidence' and 'belief''?

reply to post by Prezbo369


U said:

Whilst 'using' logic and your common sense to believe in your invisible skydaddie, do you think it'll be impressed with your dishonestly in your attempts to manipulate people in this thread with nothing more than semantics?

My Skydadie is Powerful and Wise but your "daddy" is related to maggots. No let me change that, a bacterium.

See if you wanna play this game of "daddie" you're going to lose. Let me know if you wanna go this route because I'm game.

DO you believe Prezbo369 using logic and common sense that your "daddy" is a bacterium and a virus? Or would you say a stickleback fish? Or a two tongued lizard? Or a monkey? Which of these can we identify your "daddy"? Come on be honest.

As for dishonesty - will you point out to me where I did such a thing in this thread?

You say semantics? What? If all I'm saying is that evolution is a "belief system" why do you get offended? Might it be that it truly is a "belief system" and that "you can't handle the truth"?

And if you think I can manipulate people, my my, you're giving too much power Prezbo369. DO I have that much power Prezbo369?

If so, snap out of it and THINK for yourself by golly. Don't let other people fool you.

Or this: In your opinion what are the differences between 'faith', 'confidence' and 'belief''?

It all DEPENDS on CONTEXT Prezbo369.

Here let's see if you can figure out the context:

In my opinion, I believe that evolution theory is hoax and I'm confident with this belief because the facts supports my opinion.

Anyway what's the answer to my very elementary question:

Do you believe in evolution Prezbo369?

Do you believe evolution is a fact Prezbo369?

Originally posted by edmc^2
I mean why can't any of you just say, "yes I believe evolution is a fact"?

Yes, I believe evolution is a fact. I figured that was obvious based on the rest of my response. Of course it's a fact, it's backed by evidence. Belief or lack of belief in a fact, does not take away from the fact that it's a fact!

You have 2 options here:

Option A: Evolution is indeed a fact.

Option B: There is a massive conspiracy in the scientific community that conducts fake studies and pretends to work on things for years, only to manufacture all the evidence and not a single legitimate scientist exists (despite people being able to repeat and peer review their experiments, it's just all made up).

Well I have a SYSTEM. It's called Scientific Observation.

By means of scientific observation using instruments and mathematics (F = Gm1m2/r2), I believe them as facts!

As to "faith", do you know that it also has something to do with confidence, assurance and "faith in oneself"?

For example, I have confidence and faith that my scientific observation is 100% accurate and reliable based on an "assured expectation" that what goes up must come down and that the planet earth will revolve around the sun 365 (+) days a year (pause, I almost ran out of air).

I believe in this system.

Looks like I was right. You ARE playing word games. You are saying that since you believe in the system, it is a belief system. I don't believe in it. I know it's right. There's a difference.

I will now quote myself:

If so, than everything in the universe is a belief system

Point proven. You have to do better than that. I remember your last topic from around a year ago or so and you made very similar arguments that did nothing but twist words and meanings around.

How about you Barcs, do have confidence, do you have "faith in yourself" that what scientists said about evolution is the truth? If so by how much? 100% or 50/50?

It's not about faith in myself. It's about what the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE says, not just what scientists say. It's about results of experiments that are repeated and tested over and over. If you are suggesting any one of them is wrong, then please perform it yourself and prove it wrong. If science is a massive conspiracy as you suggest, then it should be easy to pick out an experiment and yield different results.

Just like your mechanic, do you fully trust him? Do you have "faith" in his ability to fix your car? How do you know that he can fix your car without seeing him working on an engine let alone your?

I trust my auto mechanic, but admittedly it took a while to find an honest one that wasn't just trying to make an extra buck.

So you are essentially saying that anything anybody could believe in is a belief system.

Here's the nail in the coffin

wikiA belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs of any such system can be classified as religious, philosophical, ideological or a combination of these.

It does not refer to or mention science anywhere in that definition nor does it say that belief in any system = belief system. You are using belief and system separately and trying to say that they mean the same thing as the term "belief system. You have just perfectly demonstrated what a semantics argument is and how to play word games! Congrats!

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Phoenix267

 

Yes and isn't interesting that the fruit fly despite all it's mutations is still a fruit fly. And it doesn't evolve or change beyond it's core design. The mutant either dies out or it's DNA helps it revert back to it's original form if it can even propagate.
Actually from my perspective the fruit fly is an example that actually proves major mutations will not change creatures over the long term. It actually defeats evolution. The core DNA/RNA always wins out in the end to bring it back to basically where it started.

edit on 5-8-2013 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)

NOPE! It just shows the fruit fly is where it needs to be. It doesnt need to evolve to survive.

reply to post by Barcs

Yes, I believe evolution is a fact. I figured that was obvious based on the rest of my response. Of course it's a fact, it's backed by evidence. Belief or lack of belief in a fact, does not take away from the fact that it's a fact!

Hahaha...finally someone had the guts to admit it.

"Yes, I believe evolution is a fact."

So Barcs, what made you believe that evolution theory is a "fact"?

Do you have a "system" that you used to make you believe that it's a "fact"?

Or do you have no "system" at all but just believe because someone says so?

Is it just a BLIND belief?

I wonder.

reply to post by edmc^2


Do you believe the bible is fact? You seem to pick and choose what you want to be facts out of it. If that is the case then is it just your opinion and belief that certain words in the bible are fact and others are fiction? How are you able to discern between the two? Do some stories just seem too "magical" to be fact?

Originally posted by Vasa Croe
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Do you believe the bible is fact? You seem to pick and choose what you want to be facts out of it. If that is the case then is it just your opinion and belief that certain words in the bible are fact and others are fiction? How are you able to discern between the two? Do some stories just seem too "magical" to be fact?

Of course the Bible is A fact!

2Ti 3:16 VUL - "omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia"

In fact when it touches or deals with science or scientific facts it's 100% accurate.

reply to post by edmc^2

Of course the Bible is A fact!

2Ti 3:16 VUL - "omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia"

In fact when it touches or deals with science or scientific facts it's 100% accurate.

The Bible is a fact. How do we know? Because the Bible says so!

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by Vasa Croe
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Do you believe the bible is fact? You seem to pick and choose what you want to be facts out of it. If that is the case then is it just your opinion and belief that certain words in the bible are fact and others are fiction? How are you able to discern between the two? Do some stories just seem too "magical" to be fact?

Of course the Bible is A fact!

2Ti 3:16 VUL - "omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia"

In fact when it touches or deals with science or scientific facts it's 100% accurate.

edit on 21-8-2013 by edmc^2 because: A fact!

Wait.....did you really just quote the bible saying it was fact to try to prove it is fact?

So by your own standard evolution is fact because it is stated by numerous accounts that can be found in books.

So Genesis 30:37-39 is a fact? I mean that is about as scientific as what you state was said about the Earth hanging on nothing right? So these animals bore striped offspring because Jacob peeled some sticks into stripes and the animals looked at them while doing their deed? Seriously?

Originally posted by iterationzero
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Of course the Bible is A fact!

2Ti 3:16 VUL - "omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata et utilis ad docendum ad arguendum ad corrigendum ad erudiendum in iustitia"

In fact when it touches or deals with science or scientific facts it's 100% accurate.

The Bible is a fact. How do we know? Because the Bible says so!

No, because the facts says so. Just like when it said the earth is hanging upon nothing - in empty space.

Just like when it said that the Universe (heavens) had a beginning - "Big Bang"!

That's how we know it's a fact - but it's more than that as discovered by the person mentioned in the OP.

reply to post by Vasa Croe

So Genesis 30:37-39 is a fact? I mean that is about as scientific as what you state was said about the Earth hanging on nothing right? So these animals bore striped offspring because Jacob peeled some sticks into stripes and the animals looked at them while doing their deed? Seriously?

Well first off - since you can't discount or disprove that earth is hanging in empty space, thus, the Bible stands on its merits.

As for Genesis 30:37-39: It's the law of Genetics at play here, NOT the sticks! That is, the male goats are HYBRID. They carry genes that exhibit a spotty or stripped offspring. In other words some of the animals carried in their reproductive cells the hereditary factors for spotting and speckling future generations. That's all there is to it. And this was in fact revealed to Jacob before even the stripped animals were born.

“At last it came about at the time when the flock got in heat that I raised my eyes and saw a sight in a dream and here the he-goats springing upon the flock were striped, speckled and spotty. 11 Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob!’ to which I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he continued, ‘Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La′ban is doing to you.” (Genesis 31:10-12)

Thus it had nothing to do with sticks - contrary to what Jacob had thought!

reply to post by Vasa Croe

Wait.....did you really just quote the bible saying it was fact to try to prove it is fact?

So by your own standard evolution is fact because it is stated by numerous accounts that can be found in books.

Nope - evolution is NOT a fact by my standard because the evidence, solid evidence, verifiable evidence doesn't support it.

Simple as that.

Of course your free to BELIEVE that it is.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

So Genesis 30:37-39 is a fact? I mean that is about as scientific as what you state was said about the Earth hanging on nothing right? So these animals bore striped offspring because Jacob peeled some sticks into stripes and the animals looked at them while doing their deed? Seriously?

Well first off - since you can't discount or disprove that earth is hanging in empty space, thus, the Bible stands on its merits.

As for Genesis 30:37-39: It's the law of Genetics at play here, NOT the sticks! That is, the male goats are HYBRID. They carry genes that exhibit a spotty or stripped offspring. In other words some of the animals carried in their reproductive cells the hereditary factors for spotting and speckling future generations. That's all there is to it. And this was in fact revealed to Jacob before even the stripped animals were born.

“At last it came about at the time when the flock got in heat that I raised my eyes and saw a sight in a dream and here the he-goats springing upon the flock were striped, speckled and spotty. 11 Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob!’ to which I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he continued, ‘Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La′ban is doing to you.” (Genesis 31:10-12)

Thus it had nothing to do with sticks - contrary to what Jacob had thought!

So you are saying that the intellect of those that are in the bible was so varied that while one can understand the Earth is hanging in empty space yet another thinks that if he pulls barks off of sticks in a striped pattern and his animals look at it while breeding they will in turn become striped? And you think this holds any scientific merit? As I have said before....you can look at the sky and the stars and how they come around in the same place every day and realize we are not held up by anything. Regardless of belief systems of the time, observation alone gives this impression. Jacob actually thought making striped sticks would create striped animals....that tells me the intellect of the people in the stories....again....observation would say that the animals have bred before in front of whatever and did not come out patterned as such.

Seems the intellect of those in the bible is well suited to the intellect of those that believe it to be fact.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

Wait.....did you really just quote the bible saying it was fact to try to prove it is fact?

So by your own standard evolution is fact because it is stated by numerous accounts that can be found in books.

Nope - evolution is NOT a fact by my standard because the evidence, solid evidence, verifiable evidence doesn't support it.

Simple as that.

Of course your free to BELIEVE that it is.

There is no solid, verifiable evidence of the bible being a fact except for the bible saying it is a fact itself.

Originally posted by Vasa Croe

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

So Genesis 30:37-39 is a fact? I mean that is about as scientific as what you state was said about the Earth hanging on nothing right? So these animals bore striped offspring because Jacob peeled some sticks into stripes and the animals looked at them while doing their deed? Seriously?

Well first off - since you can't discount or disprove that earth is hanging in empty space, thus, the Bible stands on its merits.

As for Genesis 30:37-39: It's the law of Genetics at play here, NOT the sticks! That is, the male goats are HYBRID. They carry genes that exhibit a spotty or stripped offspring. In other words some of the animals carried in their reproductive cells the hereditary factors for spotting and speckling future generations. That's all there is to it. And this was in fact revealed to Jacob before even the stripped animals were born.

“At last it came about at the time when the flock got in heat that I raised my eyes and saw a sight in a dream and here the he-goats springing upon the flock were striped, speckled and spotty. 11 Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob!’ to which I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he continued, ‘Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La′ban is doing to you.” (Genesis 31:10-12)

Thus it had nothing to do with sticks - contrary to what Jacob had thought!

So you are saying that the intellect of those that are in the bible was so varied that while one can understand the Earth is hanging in empty space yet another thinks that if he pulls barks off of sticks in a striped pattern and his animals look at it while breeding they will in turn become striped? And you think this holds any scientific merit?

Exactly, that's the beauty of the Bible! It's honest and frank. It shows the faults as well as the intelligence of individuals. No other book does that. God who is the AUTHOR of the Bible gave freedom to its writers to state what they felt and thought - whether right or wrong.

In the case of Job - he was given the right information about the earth being in outer space.

In the case of Jacob - the writer was given the freedom to include what Jacob thought was responsible for the changing color of his flocks.

As the scripture said:

The angel of God showed Jacob "‘...the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty,". That is, striped, speckled and spotty offspring can come out (spring up) of normal colored animals.

Which is again, scientifically accurate due to hereditary factors - THAT WE now know.

As I have said before....you can look at the sky and the stars and how they come around in the same place every day and realize we are not held up by anything.

Like I said - supposedly brilliant ancient civilizations like the Egyptians, Greeks of old, with all the knowledge they posses got it wrong. Yet the Bible almost 4000 years ago - got it right! Only in the 19/20th century of our era did we finally confirm the accuracy of the words "hanging upon nothing".

Regardless of belief systems of the time, observation alone gives this impression. Jacob actually thought making striped sticks would create striped animals....that tells me the intellect of the people in the stories....again....observation would say that the animals have bred before in front of whatever and did not come out patterned as such. Seems the intellect of those in the bible is well suited to the intellect of those that believe it to be fact.

Whatever the case, the Bible is still accurate when it comes to scientific facts.