44 injured as two trains collide head-on in Switzerland – local media

reply to post by Senduko


These recent incidents dont have the modus operandi of a terrorist attack. For a start, terror attacks in this day and age are largely executed by way of explosive devices, either planted in the passenger compartments, or carried on by suicide operatives. If this HAD of been a terror attack, with the intent of making the train leave the tracks, I would have expected the Spanish train to leave the tracks BEFORE the bend, with the aim of ploughing the train to a heavy and immediate stop, against the embankment next to the main road, rather than the none the less terrible consequences we saw there. Horrific as it must have been, and clearly looked on video, if that train had come off the rails before the bend and gone from one hundred and ninety kph to zero in an instant, no one on that train would have been recognisable, let alone survived, albeit missing limbs.

This Swiss impact also bears none of the hallmarks of a terrorist attack. Nothing by way of rumours of explosions, nothing by way of mad bastards announcing thier purity in the face of global infidelity, no claims made to the news networks by deluded clerics...

You have to understand, that terror networks, such as they are, gain and maintain thier power by public displays of violence and oppression. That is the only way they can hold thier positions, and if you have done any research into them then you know that as well as being funded by some entirely suprising agencies over the years, there is a heirarchy, a pecking order, and if a group was responsible for any one of these railway incidents, it is unthinkable that they would not announce such a thing to the public in a massive way. This holds for all terrorist groups, wether thier focus is religious, political, or just plain old fashioned anarchy.

Now, I am not saying that these incidents are unrelated, they are related by thier very nature, as train crashes, occuring within a fairly short time frame. However, what I am saying is that there is little evidence that they are anything other than they appear. Train crashes, caused by either human error, or faulty equipment in the tracks or trains. Time will no doubt uncover the truth of these matters, as far too many people are emotionally invested in the potential outcomes of both the impending investigations. Where the Spanish incident is concerned, it is not clear wether a malfunction in the train or track, or a human error on the part of the driver (arrested for negligent homicide) was to blame at this stage. Since this Swiss incident is relatively recent, little will be known for some time to come, perhaps a week or so.

I am prepared to wait till then for some clarity on these positions, as anything we say now, including all the above are little more than speculation at this point, although I think when one hears hoofbeats, one should think of horses, not zebras, until one sees the white and black stripes (and more than likely the stalking pack of predators nipping at thier heels).

reply to post by Senduko


Could you please link the source of THAT specific turn rating for 200kph, thanks.

reply to post by TrueBrit


What a nice well written out response. When putting it like that it doesn't look like a terrorist attack, but don't the tactics change for the purpose its intended?

I don't hold the answer, but there is something wrong, no matter what people tell you. in this short time frame... Shrugs.

@Carreau : Wish I could, heared it on TV in an interview, fellow traindriver who didn't understand how it was possible. I wish I had a source, would love to use it to debunk the debunkers hehe.

reply to post by Senduko


Senduko, I am with you on the matter of, this doesnt feel right or this should not be happening.

As for the exact reasons of these accidents, I cant say.

reply to post by TrueBrit

These recent incidents dont have the modus operandi of a terrorist attack. For a start, terror attacks in this day and age are largely executed by way of explosive devices, either planted in the passenger compartments, or carried on by suicide operatives

Not entirely correct. Prior to the train explosion in Quebec Canada. Two individuals were arrested for plotting to release a possible chemical or biological attack on a train coming from Montreal heading to Toronto and eventually the US. However this attempt was thwarted by the RCMP and US federal agents.

Thread is here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by MDDoxs


It IS a weird story. I'm over 50, and this is the first time I have ever heard of any machinery in Switzerland that would dare to malfunction. Here in California, that terrible commuter train accident we had a few years ago was due to a train engineer reading and sending text messages when he was on duty. On the probable cause, both in Switzerland and in Spain, I have 3 words for you: Hand Held Devices

reply to post by Senduko


The tactics may change somewhat, thats to be expected with any psuedo-military outfit, since they all work from the playbook of Sun Tzu, who advised in essence that one must move with the moment and adapt to the circumstances which prevail, and that advice has been taken by every militaristic organisation which exists today, without exception as far as I am aware. However, the combination of the lack of explosives AND a total absence of media campaign to go along with the incidents means that performing such an attack would have no value for an organisation which cannot achieve ANY of its aims without recognition.

It can neither install fear in the hearts of the people of the free world, achieve recognition amongst the plethora of groups active across the globe (necessary to be chosen by larger groups as affiliates, providing more funding access, and access to improved/greater amounts of equipment and personel etc) or give the finger to those who would actively oppose them, by committing acts without standing up and announcing thier involvement.

What I would say, is that these incidents are none the less terrifying, all the more so because thier causes are still in question. If the causes are actually entirely mechanical, or involving human error, then at least they have a solution, but until that solution is found, people on trains, who happen to also be prone to nervousness will be packing extra pants on every ride, no matter the length of the journey they intend to take.

Of course, these are just my opinions based on what I know of the incidents. Although I am not an accident investigator, I have looked into just about every kind of calamity, horrific balls up, and mass casualty mess that has occured since I was born, not out of morbid fascination, but curiosity as to the causes of both the calamities, and the kinds of cause of death and injury often associated with them. That is why I know that if these had been attempts at a devastating terror attack, there would have been much more effective, and destructive ways of achieving such an aim, because I have peered into the underbelly of such matters since I was very young, and know the many ways man preys on his kin.

reply to post by playernumber13


That is just what we have been saying, then 35 killed in Bus crash yesterday in Italy, what is going on indeed?

My mother is over 50 as well, Even she's like what with all those train accidents this year.

And like she said, yeah there have always been accidents, but not near a city, or let alone heavy casualties. I take her word for it, because I know she's a skeptic when it comes all down to tin foil hat area.

But like always ,Events outside US soil spark little interest here on ATS. Shame really.

reply to post by MDDoxs


Indeed. However, first of all thier plan would have been more effective had they intended to aerosolise the agents they were releasing, by way of a detonation. Second, they still had to plant, or bring a device on board with them. Having seen the pictures of both the Swiss incident and the Spanish crash, I can see no evidence of the activation of a device within the passenger space, of any kind.

reply to post by Senduko


40 years ago there wasn't the internet, cable/satellite TV, or a 24 hour news cycle to inform her of a train crash in another country. They happened but were only a local event.

reply to post by TrueBrit


But Trains are a very easy target, I live right next to a train track, I could literately put a metal object on the tracks and it would derail so easily.

For train you really have no need for explosives. But I agree with you, that It does miss some sort of psychological impact. To make sense sort of speak.

When I posted in the Spain thread another train accident would follow, I honestly didn't think it would happen this fast. And that's worrisome.

Just within the time frame mechanical and human error are almost not possible.

reply to post by Carreau


Really did you just go there? That like the most idiotic thing to say. 40 Years ago there where alot less trains so chances of an accident happening where smaller?

40years ago there where alot more people using trains so casualties would have been higher?

Yeah yeah, but the trains went slower so the impact was not as heavy reducing the casualties..

Oh really but the safety guides where alot less strict so the trains where weaker, increasing casualties.

Point being, when I made the comment, I wasn't referring to over 40 years, I'm talking about in the last 20 year, heck the last 10 years.

Sure accidents happened in China, but those are build cheap, Prior to 2013 there wheren't so much accidents within this short time frame.

2 Trains accidents in less then two weeks? What are the odd's?

reply to post by Senduko


Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible. If there was a track failiure, with the points involved in routing both the trains in the Swiss incident onto the same track, or in the case of the Spanish incident, a failiure in the breaking system, then close though those incidents are in chronology, it is hardly impossible for them to have happened independant of one another.

Also, in the instance you mention of someone placing debris on a track, yes, that has happened, and could happen again. However, that idea likely has little to do with the Spanish crash, because quite simply, debris on the track does not cause one hundred and ninety kph trains to fail to brake. It causes them to go flying off the tracks and make a mess, but since the train reached a bend, which it couldnt have gotten around at its speed at the time, I would have thought that the likely cause is either a balls up on the part of the driver, or a faulty accelerator or brake, more likely the accelerator than anything else.

And debris on the track couldnt have had a damned thing to do with this latest incident in Switzerland, simply because debris cannot cause the points to fail to correctly route a train down a desired track, and instead faceplant the drivers together with vast tonnages of metal to really ram home the impact.

And today a Bus in Italy. But if you add it up, all of the deaths in public transport in Europe probably are but a fraction of the deaths with cars in even the smallest country.

reply to post by TrueBrit


Well, I have a feeling its all connected, and we will be getting some sort of general announcement later this year

reply to post by Senduko


It could well be connected in someway, but if it is, I would lay my money on the same international contractor being responsible for the installation, manufacture, or sale of faulty parts and infrastructural components. However, only time will tell!

Incidentally, wheres the emoticon for "anticipating further data, standby...." ?

I hear the members on here saying that it's not likely a terrorist event and they may be right.
Signal errors do occur and human errors do occur we can't rule them out but I had a thought, what if the signal errors that are showing up are a result of a wayward stuxnet virus or some variant that made its way into the train controls? There are a lot of PLC's (Programmable Logic Controllers) in use, here in the US, that handle everything from traffic lights to Industrial Manufacturing and maybe even railroad signals or track switching gear.

I'm not saying that's what is happening but it might be worth pondering. If it were an industrial virus like Stuxnet and it has randomly infiltrated the wrong target(s) then I can see it creating unsafe conditions and not actually targeting a "big event catastrophe".

reply to post by MDDoxs


Recently I traveled back to the UK from Malta . The flight was delayed by nearly four hours due to a technical issue that meant we actually had to wait for a replacement plane. I go to Malta most years and that has never happened before. Not saying its linked just that it happened . No idea exactly what was wrong with our plane that was so serious we had to have another one.

Originally posted by Senduko
reply to post by Carreau

 

Really did you just go there?

That like the most idiotic thing to say. 40 Years ago there where alot less trains so chances of an accident happening where smaller?

40years ago there where alot more people using trains so casualties would have been higher?

Here is the data on 40 years ago exactly.

1993

January 18, 1993 – Gary, Indiana, United States: The eastbound Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District train number 7 runs a red signal and is hit by westbound train number 12; 7 passengers die, scores are injured in the accident.

January 30, 1993 – Ngai Ndethya, Kenya: 65 killed in a Mombasa-bound passenger train carrying 600 passengers which plunged into a river a bridge washaway.

January 31, 1993 – According to Chinese Xinhua News Agency and Railroad Ministry report, No.77 express Chifeng–Dalian rammed an overloaded bus at an unmanned level crossing at Liaoning, China, killing 66 people and injuring 28.

March 17, 1993 – near Fort Lauderdale, Florida, United States: An Amtrak passenger train strikes a gasoline tanker truck that has stopped on a grade crossing, causing the tanker to explode. Six people (including the truck driver) are killed and 12 injured. The dining car stops in the center of the fire and is damaged beyond repair.

March 28, 1993 – According to South Korean Munhwa Broadcasting Corporation television report, a Seoul–Busan express train derailed, when an express train was moving at normal speed approaching Busan station, suddenly 33 yards of rail track collapsed, and eight passenger cars plunged, where caused by 13-feet from caved in tracks at near Busan, South Korea, killing 79 people.

April 30, 1993 – According to BBTV Channel Seven of Thailand report, a passenger train hit a bus carrying children of Shergli Primary schools at unguarded railroad crossing at Phutthamonthon, Nakorn Pathom, Thailand, killing 36 people including 28 children.

May 28, 1993 – According to Armenpress report, a passenger train loaded with concrete blocks, and slammed into another passenger train at Gyumri, Shirak, Armenia, killing 43 people.

July 24, 1993 – According to Indonesian RCTI report, a Surabaya–Pandanwangi passenger train rammed into an intercity bus at an unguarded railroad crossing, and a bus dragged for 80 yards before the train halted at Jombang, West Java, Indonesia, killing 15 people and injuring 20.

August 2, 1993 – Vega de Anzo, Spain a crash in a tunnel at kills 12 people.

August 25, 1993 – Rolleston, Canterbury, New Zealand: A cement truck fails to stop for the alarms at a level crossing and collides with the side of a southbound Southener passenger train, sending the truck's mixer bowl bouncing off the carriages and ripping two open, killing three passengers and seriously injuring seven others. As one of the people killed was the sister of New Zealand international cricketer Chris Cairns, the accident is often referred to for level crossing safety activism in New Zealand.

September 21, 1993 – Chhabra rail disaster, 71 people die in a collision between two trains at Chhabra in Rajasthan.[citation needed]

September 22, 1993 – 1993 Big Bayou Canot train wreck, near Mobile, Alabama, United States: Barges being pushed by an off-course towboat collide with a bridge piling; the bridge shifts out of alignment, creating a kink in the rails on the CSXT's former Louisville & Nashville Gulfcoast line. Minutes later, Amtrak's Sunset Limited derails at high speed on the misaligned track and plunges into the water, causing a massive fuel spill and fire. 47 people are killed in Amtrak's deadliest accident.

October 3, 1993 – Nordstrand, Oslo, Norway: A local train collides with a shunting (switch) locomotive. 5 people killed.

November 2, 1993 – Citayam, near Depok, West Java, Indonesia : 2 commuter train collision at Ratujaya, 25 Die. After the Incident 4 train survive later merged in one set train and the nickname was Albino / Rheostatik Cat Dog and this is how the beginning of double track Depok - Bogor line

November 11, 1993 – near Kelso, Washington, United States: A Union Pacific and a Burlington Northern freight train collide, head-on, due to the Burlington Northern train failing to stop for a red signal, which was likely missed due to dense fog, killing the 5 crew members on board both trains. Due to this incident the two railroads implemented new safety features called "Precision Train Control" (an ancestor to, the later federally mandated, Positive Train Control) on 750 miles of UP and BN track.[19

wikipedia / list of rail accidents

So that's 491 rail fatalities for 1993

Compare that to 40,150 Automotive fatalities for 1993
in the US alone, and I'd say trains are still safer than cars.


Mike