An Atheist's Desperate Plea

reply to post by EPH612

I think that God created humans because He wanted to. God created humans because He wanted something made in His image that could CHOOSE to follow and obey Him, or choose not to. Having that choice is important. I don't think that making humans was an accident.

Then why punish us for choosing to find our happiness elsewhere? If we have the capability to diverge, why punish us for exercising it as long as we don't hurt anyone? I refuse to believe there's only one way of doing the right thing. The only limitation is imagination.

And secondly I'm not convinced that God is deceitful. What do you feel He has been deceitful about? As I see it, He's given us just about everything that we need to know through the Bible and the people around us.

He locked us in a garden. He put the one tree he told us never to touch EXACTLY where it needed to be so we could partake of its produce. He let Satan, his worst enemy, wander freely into his most prized sanctuary so the snake could deceive us. He then acted as though it was entirely our fault that he failed to protect us from the consequences of his creations, even though he knew exactly what would happen and had every faculty necessary to ensure that it wouldn't. But that was just the beginning. He created an entity he knew would turn evil before he ever created it, then set it loose upon his own children, the very people he knew would be unable to resist it. And just to top it off, he threatened to damn anyone who did not do their absolute best to resist the evil that he created.

And you say you are not convinced? You must be blind. Blind, deaf, and blissfully ignorant. I hear that's how the Christian god likes his sheep. Oblivious and obeisant, just like a good slave should be. I mean, it really doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to worship someone. Which is why it's curious that he gave us brains at all if all he wants from us is attention. Who knows?

Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

I think that God created humans because He wanted to. God created humans because He wanted something made in His image that could CHOOSE to follow and obey Him, or choose not to. Having that choice is important. I don't think that making humans was an accident.

And secondly I'm not convinced that God is deceitful. What do you feel He has been deceitful about? As I see it, He's given us just about everything that we need to know through the Bible and the people around us.

Alright, why humans at all, you could take the 3 million (only half of which discovered YET insect specie) and their (to keep themselves alive) shenanigans and call it a day, they are very odd creatures and if one was to look at behavior patterns NEED NO OTHER. There are how many varieties of humans, well, if you believe in the isolated placement theory of continents, bodies of water, mountains. you would have 5. Those occidental, oriental, Islanders, nomadic and icelandic (northern european). God created man in its own image. I would like a picture of it, and I can assure you either I am looking at myself in a mirror or I am looking at a phantom belief system (IN GOD WE TRUST) THE Dollar Bill; as that is as close to a reality of God as I can imagine it. The decietfulness comes about with the not claiming/showing itself other than through MAN'S interpretation of it. I would believe more Prousts/Sartres existencialialism or Edgar Allen Poes/Jules Verne Science Fiction (regarding the state of Gods existance). It lives in a hot air balloon floating in the sky.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


While insects and the other creatures God created are certainly far more interesting to watch than humans, I believe that what God wanted was something that was able to choose. Giving one of His creations free will is one of the greatest acts of love and sacrifice that God made for us. He could have made us without free will, but then the entire point is null. He has the entire universe that can testify to the glory of His majesty. Making humans without free will would have just added 1 to the number of creations that show His glory.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Then why punish us for choosing to find our happiness elsewhere? If we have the capability to diverge, why punish us for exercising it as long as we don't hurt anyone? I refuse to believe there's only one way of doing the right thing. The only limitation is imagination.

He punished us because "choosing to find our happiness elsewhere" is the equivalent of telling God that he's not enough for us. We have God, the example of joy, love, perfection, and faithfulness. We had the chance to walk with Him in His garden every day, and talk to Him. But we decided that something else was better than God.

He locked us in a garden. He put the one tree he told us never to touch EXACTLY where it needed to be so we could partake of its produce. He let Satan, his worst enemy, wander freely into his most prized sanctuary so the snake could deceive us. He then acted as though it was entirely our fault that he failed to protect us from the consequences of his creations, even though he knew exactly what would happen and had every faculty necessary to ensure that it wouldn't. But that was just the beginning. He created an entity he knew would turn evil before he ever created it, then set it loose upon his own children, the very people he knew would be unable to resist it. And just to top it off, he threatened to damn anyone who did not do their absolute best to resist the evil that he created.

Actually, technically there were two trees. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of eternal life. And the key word in your second sentence is "could". Because God gave us free will, and choice. That means He gave us the ability to choose evil, and ignore God. He didn't fail to protect us. He gave us everything we would have needed to resist the temptation to eat the fruit. The only way to ensure that we would never sin was to create us without free will. But God loved us enough to give us free will, knowing how much it would hurt Him every time we sinned.

And you say you are not convinced? You must be blind. Blind, deaf, and blissfully ignorant. I hear that's how the Christian god likes his sheep. Oblivious and obeisant, just like a good slave should be. I mean, it really doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to worship someone. Which is why it's curious that he gave us brains at all if all he wants from us is attention. Who knows?

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to worship someone? Now who's blind, deaf, and blissfully ignorant? Look at the persecution that Christians have endured throughout history. Every time they were executed, beaten, and mocked for their beliefs. A persecution that continues to this day. We have science claiming that none of our beliefs are valid, the media paints us as hypocrites and bigots, the average person mocking us, and in some countries Christians are still being beaten and executed. Being a Christian and following God despite what the world and society thinks isn't easy. What do you believe in enough that you would be willing to endure that?

Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

While insects and the other creatures God created are certainly far more interesting to watch than humans, I believe that what God wanted was something that was able to choose. Giving one of His creations free will is one of the greatest acts of love and sacrifice that God made for us. He could have made us without free will, but then the entire point is null. He has the entire universe that can testify to the glory of His majesty. Making humans without free will would have just added 1 to the number of creations that show His glory.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Then why punish us for choosing to find our happiness elsewhere? If we have the capability to diverge, why punish us for exercising it as long as we don't hurt anyone? I refuse to believe there's only one way of doing the right thing. The only limitation is imagination.

He punished us because "choosing to find our happiness elsewhere" is the equivalent of telling God that he's not enough for us. We have God, the example of joy, love, perfection, and faithfulness. We had the chance to walk with Him in His garden every day, and talk to Him. But we decided that something else was better than God.

He locked us in a garden. He put the one tree he told us never to touch EXACTLY where it needed to be so we could partake of its produce. He let Satan, his worst enemy, wander freely into his most prized sanctuary so the snake could deceive us. He then acted as though it was entirely our fault that he failed to protect us from the consequences of his creations, even though he knew exactly what would happen and had every faculty necessary to ensure that it wouldn't. But that was just the beginning. He created an entity he knew would turn evil before he ever created it, then set it loose upon his own children, the very people he knew would be unable to resist it. And just to top it off, he threatened to damn anyone who did not do their absolute best to resist the evil that he created.

Actually, technically there were two trees. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of eternal life. And the key word in your second sentence is "could". Because God gave us free will, and choice. That means He gave us the ability to choose evil, and ignore God. He didn't fail to protect us. He gave us everything we would have needed to resist the temptation to eat the fruit. The only way to ensure that we would never sin was to create us without free will. But God loved us enough to give us free will, knowing how much it would hurt Him every time we sinned.

And you say you are not convinced? You must be blind. Blind, deaf, and blissfully ignorant. I hear that's how the Christian god likes his sheep. Oblivious and obeisant, just like a good slave should be. I mean, it really doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to worship someone. Which is why it's curious that he gave us brains at all if all he wants from us is attention. Who knows?

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to worship someone? Now who's blind, deaf, and blissfully ignorant? Look at the persecution that Christians have endured throughout history. Every time they were executed, beaten, and mocked for their beliefs. A persecution that continues to this day. We have science claiming that none of our beliefs are valid, the media paints us as hypocrites and bigots, the average person mocking us, and in some countries Christians are still being beaten and executed. Being a Christian and following God despite what the world and society thinks isn't easy. What do you believe in enough that you would be willing to endure that?

I can see the severe persecution coming to America just from looking at what happens to people in academia who show any skepticism towards Darwinism in any way at all, and God forbid they show themselves to be explicitly for creationism, they may just loose their livelihood. Jerry Bergman documents this totalitarianism in the education system in his book "Slaughter of the Dissidents" which he discusses in the video below. Being a Christian starts with Gods word on the creation of all life and the universe, of which Satans disciples are on a hunt to stamp out of the mind of those in academia altogether. Its going to get worse as time goes along, they didnt pass the Patriot Act and all subsequent totalitarianism bills just to admire.

Slaughter of the Dissidents with Dr. Jerry Bergman:

Christians, are you ready to be labeled and persecuted by the State?:

Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

While insects and the other creatures God created are certainly far more interesting to watch than humans, I believe that what God wanted was something that was able to choose. Giving one of His creations free will is one of the greatest acts of love and sacrifice that God made for us. He could have made us without free will, but then the entire point is null. He has the entire universe that can testify to the glory of His majesty. Making humans without free will would have just added 1 to the number of creations that show His glory.

So you admit God and Lucifer are one and the same, its doppleganger evil twin. Lucifer set loose the idea of 'freewill' enlightenment giving Man the choice of self determinism against ALL THE RULES, because it did not tell anyone (consult with the panel of white wigged blowhards). ITS purpose was to boomerang everything into a cascade of funsterisms (LOST CONTROL OF HUMAN). The Annunaki; (GODs helpful Wizard of Oz Munchkins that had the ability to animate matter) made us as slaveforms, we were rescued from that dismal fate by a maverick/rebel that had a better idea. Trickery at its WORST, deception at its BEST.

Originally posted by BlackManINC

I can see the severe persecution coming to America just from looking at what happens to people in academia who show any skepticism towards Darwinism in any way at all, and God forbid they show themselves to be explicitly for creationism, they may just loose their livelihood. Jerry Bergman documents this totalitarianism in the education system in his book "Slaughter of the Dissidents" which he discusses in the video below. Being a Christian starts with Gods word on the creation of all life and the universe, of which Satans disciples are on a hunt to stamp out of the mind of those in academia altogether. Its going to get worse as time goes along, they didnt pass the Patriot Act and all subsequent totalitarianism bills just to admire.

.

Severe persecution coming to America in what form? We are a nation of immigrants, we have the spectacular talent to dissect and impune or glorify any idea that comes along (even Darwinism, even Creationism). It is the nature of one to always question everything; why? because our past generations left their homelands to escape 5 things, poverty, a caste system that keeps you locked into karma that must be overcome in future lifetimes, tyranny by an unjust government, the stifling of a religious belief system or HOPE for a better future for our children. If Satan is a hunter of Academics then God must be as well a hunter of the creative, (artist, composer ,writer, poet, architect, theoretical physisist) as they threaten his misplaced FAT PANTS authority..Rather than protect and nurture us (which it does not, THATS EARTH Job) you see this as a vinegar drinking jealous God that hoards cuban cigars.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by BlackManINC

I can see the severe persecution coming to America just from looking at what happens to people in academia who show any skepticism towards Darwinism in any way at all, and God forbid they show themselves to be explicitly for creationism, they may just loose their livelihood. Jerry Bergman documents this totalitarianism in the education system in his book "Slaughter of the Dissidents" which he discusses in the video below. Being a Christian starts with Gods word on the creation of all life and the universe, of which Satans disciples are on a hunt to stamp out of the mind of those in academia altogether. Its going to get worse as time goes along, they didnt pass the Patriot Act and all subsequent totalitarianism bills just to admire.

.

Severe persecution coming to America in what form? We are a nation of immigrants, we have the spectacular talent to dissect and impune or glorify any idea that comes along (even Darwinism, even Creationism). It is the nature of one to always question everything; why? because our past generations left their homelands to escape 5 things, poverty, a caste system that keeps you locked into karma that must be overcome in future lifetimes, tyranny by an unjust government, the stifling of a religious belief system or HOPE for a better future for our children. If Satan is a hunter of Academics then God must be as well a hunter of the creative, (artist, composer ,writer, poet, architect, theoretical physisist) as they threaten his misplaced FAT PANTS authority..Rather than protect and nurture us (which it does not, THATS EARTH Job) you see this as a vinegar drinking jealous God that hoards cuban cigars.

edit on 4-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

The Lord is no "hunter" of the "creative" (whatever thats supposed to mean). He allows society the freedom to produce enough rope to hang itself with for the day of judgement, as is obvious as the sky is blue, seeing the moral decay of society that just so happens to coincide with the wide spread abandonment of christian values and the systematic embracement of evolutonary humanist philosophy. He only seeks out those who believe in him, those who follow the strict and narrow path to salvation, as the gate to hell is as wide as the belief in evolution going back to antiquity in literally every culture. He protects those who deserve it, not those who scoff at his name, like you. Gods love is not unconditonal (and henceforth, nor is the earths, just ask the starving third world populace).

Originally posted by BlackManINC

Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing

Severe persecution coming to America in what form? We are a nation of immigrants, we have the spectacular talent to dissect and impune or glorify any idea that comes along (even Darwinism, even Creationism). It is the nature of one to always question everything; why? because our past generations left their homelands to escape 5 things, poverty, a caste system that keeps you locked into karma that must be overcome in future lifetimes, tyranny by an unjust government, the stifling of a religious belief system or HOPE for a better future for our children. If Satan is a hunter of Academics then God must be as well a hunter of the creative, (artist, composer ,writer, poet, architect, theoretical physisist) as they threaten his misplaced FAT PANTS authority..Rather than protect and nurture us (which it does not, THATS EARTH Job) you see this as a vinegar drinking jealous God that hoards cuban cigars

BlackManINC
The Lord is no "hunter" of the "creative" (whatever thats supposed to mean). He allows society the freedom to produce enough rope to hang itself with for the day of judgement, as is obvious as the sky is blue, seeing the moral decay of society that just so happens to coincide with the wide spread abandonment of christian values and the systematic embracement of evolutonary humanist philosophy. He only seeks out those who believe in him, those who follow the strict and narrow path to salvation, as the gate to hell is as wide as the belief in evolution going back to antiquity in literally every culture. He protects those who deserve it, not those who scoff at his name, like you. Gods love is not unconditonal (and henceforth, nor is the earths, just ask the starving third world populace).

"The Lord" allows the human enough rope to hang itself; TO WHAT PURPOSE? It is our creator. You would let your child fall into the cooking pot, start your car and drive it into oncoming traffic, burn your abode down while playing with a bic lighter, accidently running with scissors fall and cut its own throat? Is God about entropy; is that mans job to destroy itself while God is watching/as a voyeur. You are saying those that die by their own misanthropathy DESERVE to die? Why bother with this, its known its happened over and over again;why does death by ones own ignorance continue unless god is picking and chosing its special cast of members; whats to gain; its been tried and failed, look at the world religions. Why would I scoff at God--I am it just as you are, why would I judge myself in such a harsh light? I am only human as one of Gods expressions. I think you distrust yourself and put too much faith in an unknown.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Originally posted by BlackManINC

Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing

Severe persecution coming to America in what form? We are a nation of immigrants, we have the spectacular talent to dissect and impune or glorify any idea that comes along (even Darwinism, even Creationism). It is the nature of one to always question everything; why? because our past generations left their homelands to escape 5 things, poverty, a caste system that keeps you locked into karma that must be overcome in future lifetimes, tyranny by an unjust government, the stifling of a religious belief system or HOPE for a better future for our children. If Satan is a hunter of Academics then God must be as well a hunter of the creative, (artist, composer ,writer, poet, architect, theoretical physisist) as they threaten his misplaced FAT PANTS authority..Rather than protect and nurture us (which it does not, THATS EARTH Job) you see this as a vinegar drinking jealous God that hoards cuban cigars

BlackManINC
The Lord is no "hunter" of the "creative" (whatever thats supposed to mean). He allows society the freedom to produce enough rope to hang itself with for the day of judgement, as is obvious as the sky is blue, seeing the moral decay of society that just so happens to coincide with the wide spread abandonment of christian values and the systematic embracement of evolutonary humanist philosophy. He only seeks out those who believe in him, those who follow the strict and narrow path to salvation, as the gate to hell is as wide as the belief in evolution going back to antiquity in literally every culture. He protects those who deserve it, not those who scoff at his name, like you. Gods love is not unconditonal (and henceforth, nor is the earths, just ask the starving third world populace).

"The Lord" allows the human enough rope to hang itself; TO WHAT PURPOSE? It is our creator. You would let your child fall into the cooking pot, start your car and drive it into oncoming traffic, burn your abode down while playing with a bic lighter, accidently running with scissors fall and cut its own throat? Is God about entropy; is that mans job to destroy itself while God is watching/as a voyeur. You are saying those that die by their own misanthropathy DESERVE to die? Why bother with this, its known its happened over and over again;why does death by ones own ignorance continue unless god is picking and chosing its special cast of members; whats to gain; its been tried and failed, look at the world religions. Why would I scoff at God--I am it just as you are, why would I judge myself in such a harsh light? I am only human as one of Gods expressions. I think you distrust yourself and put too much faith in an unknown.

edit on 4-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

To what purpose you ask? Its all for the day of judgement. If humanity chooses to go against Gods commandments as they have done since the beggining of time in the days of Eden, then let them hang themselves by their own rope, as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences that they are surely aware will be dealt to them accordingly when the time comes, in this life or the other. As the apostle Paul correctly stated in addressing the atheist Athenian philosphers of the time, they knew who God was from the beginning. We know this because we can see traces of their monotheistic faith in literally every culture in some of their stories that can be compared to Genesis. Thats why he stated that "they are without excuse" when they turned the truth of God on its head mixing it in with the idolatrous mystery religion they adopted from Babylon under differnt names, "the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth".

Tracing Genesis Through Ancient Culture

There is no greater more recent example of this then what has happened in America. Not only does the Bible say not to put trust in man in many differnt versers, but it also says in verses like Proverbs 3:5-6 not to put trust in yourself as well, to instead put your trust in the Lord to direct your path through life. Surely, we have a mind of our own, and God tells us to use it, but without guidance from God, humanity is entirely incapable of directing their own path as they will inevitably spiral into depravity and destroy themselves as seen throughtout history, which is a major message of the Bible, starting with the story of Eden.

Originally posted by Pistoche
Being an atheist, I’ve come across countless individuals who believe that I view them in a condescending manner due to the fact that they believe in a god.

My experience ... the atheists I know and/or have met have all been rather nice people. It's from the ranks of the hard core religious fundamentalist types (christian, muslim, whatever) that I've encountered the 'condescending manner' come from.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Pistoche
Being an atheist, I’ve come across countless individuals who believe that I view them in a condescending manner due to the fact that they believe in a god.

My experience ... the atheists I know and/or have met have all been rather nice people. It's from the ranks of the hard core religious fundamentalist types (christian, muslim, whatever) that I've encountered the 'condescending manner' come from.

Its easy to pretend to be nice and smile in someones face, but on the internet, or by any other means where they don't have to face those they scoff at face to face, the atheist is an entirely different beast. The mask comes off and they show their true colors just as much as those you call "hardcore fundamentalists". I at least have a little more respect for the atheists who don't try and hide under sheeps clothing.

reply to post by BlackManINC


You didn't read my post. I said the atheists I know or have met ... in person ... and those that I know wouldn't be able to keep up the 'fake nice' for all these years. No one who is really mean deep down can keep up the 'fake nice' for that long. Mean people can be found in ALL groups .. be they fundamentalist religious people, folks in the middle, atheists, whatever. I stand by what I said ... those I know or those I have met have all been nice.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by BlackManINC

 

You didn't read my post. I said the atheists I know or have met ... in person ... and those that I know wouldn't be able to keep up the 'fake nice' for all these years. No one who is really mean deep down can keep up the 'fake nice' for that long. Mean people can be found in ALL groups .. be they fundamentalist religious people, folks in the middle, atheists, whatever. I stand by what I said ... those I know or those I have met have all been nice.

If you say so. Just be aware that they will likely turn on you when the time to take the mask off comes, whatever they claim to be. This goes especially for the few Biblical christians on here that currently think the world is so nice and lovely.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


God and Lucifer are not "one and the same". God is the creator of the universe, Lucifer is one of His creations. God gave us free choice and helps us choose the right thing to do, Lucifer tries to get us to choose to do the wrong thing and thereby distance us from God.

vethumanbeing
Severe persecution coming to America in what form?

Open your eyes to see it. There is a difference between questioning someone's beliefs, and attacking them. Look at the image of Christianity that the media loves to promote. Does the media cover the countless missions trips every year to third world countries to help with issues like hunger, poor water sanitation, lack of proper education? Does it show how a church will support people in the community who are struggling? Or does it only cover the stories that promote the image of Christians as unscientific, hypocritical, bigoted people?

vethumanbeing
You are saying those that die by their own misanthropathy DESERVE to die?

You confuse allowing someone to suffer the consequences of their actions with deserving them. Do they deserve it? No. But God sent His son Jesus to die as the sacrifice for our sins. All we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and savior, and he takes the punishment upon himself. The gift of forgiveness has already been offered. It's your choice whether to accept that gift or not. And if you choose not to accept that gift, you will have to face the consequences of your actions yourself. God gives us countless opportunities to give our sins to Him. Whether we utilize those opportunities is up to us.

[BlackManINC
Its easy to pretend to be nice and smile in someones face, but on the internet, or by any other means where they don't have to face those they scoff at face to face, the atheist is an entirely different beast. The mask comes off and they show their true colors just as much as those you call "hardcore fundamentalists". I at least have a little more respect for the atheists who don't try and hide under sheeps clothing.

Just be aware that they will likely turn on you when the time to take the mask off comes, whatever they claim to be.

To be fair, I'm not sure that we can lump all atheists or fundamental Christians into one category and say that they are nice people, or that they're hiding their "condescending manner". They're all people, and people will often be as different from each other as is possible to be. Most of the atheists I've met have had the tendency to be rude and condescending, but I've also met some that are some genuinely kind people. Just because they are atheists doesn't make them more evil or mean than you or I can be.

reply to post by EPH612

You confuse allowing someone to suffer the consequences of their actions with deserving them. Do they deserve it? No. But God sent His son Jesus to die as the sacrifice for our sins. All we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and savior, and he takes the punishment upon himself.

That's akin to someone doing a magic trick and telling us that they just magically granted us good fortune for the rest of our lives...so long as we accept them as our king. We have no reason to believe they did what they say, other than faith in their character and faculties. We don't know HOW they did what they say they did, we only know that either they believe they did, or just desperately need us to believe they did.

Someone pulls off a magic trick at a show, and someone else can give a play-by-play break-down of how they utilized science to pull off that marvel. Interestingly, most magic tricks rely on various methods of perceptive manipulation...a thread was just posted on that recently. The less informed you are, the more assumptions you are going to make. How can you fail to make erroneous assumption upon erroneous assumption when the magician deliberately confuses you and then just gives you the most "logical" conclusion on a silver platter? It's classic psychology.

See, here's the short of it: Jesus' apparent sacrifice was so isolated an incident, with such inconclusive results, that one has to question the veracity of it. One would be foolish not to. Not to mention that the average follower goes to great lengths to dismiss the pagan roots of his sacrifice, completely ignoring the fact that the tale of the divine son being sacrificed for the sake of mortals everywhere has been mirrored through dozens of cultures throughout the many thousands of years preceding the rise of Rome. It just doesn't ring true. It sounds strangled, muffled, and distorted...like a very, very childish version of the telephone game.

It doesn't make any sense to me. And it strikes me as a very weak and whimsical attempt to impose much the same principles as we've been struggling to eradicate worldwide since the conception of the United States. One, solitary ruler who demands utter loyalty in exchange for the right to be happy. And by "happy", I mean either you are content, or you fake it like hell until you believe it. We fight that sort of idealism for our whole lives, only to embrace it when we have all of eternity to devote to it. Dafuq?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

That's akin to someone doing a magic trick and telling us that they just magically granted us good fortune for the rest of our lives...so long as we accept them as our king. We have no reason to believe they did what they say, other than faith in their character and faculties. We don't know HOW they did what they say they did, we only know that either they believe they did, or just desperately need us to believe they did.

Fair example, except that that is starting out by assuming that you're being lied to. Remove that assumption, and that would leave a third possible result: it could be the truth.

Someone pulls off a magic trick at a show, and someone else can give a play-by-play break-down of how they utilized science to pull off that marvel. Interestingly, most magic tricks rely on various methods of perceptive manipulation...a thread was just posted on that recently. The less informed you are, the more assumptions you are going to make. How can you fail to make erroneous assumption upon erroneous assumption when the magician deliberately confuses you and then just gives you the most "logical" conclusion on a silver platter? It's classic psychology.

Except for one thing: Intense faith is not logical. It goes against our nature as human beings in our modern society to believe in something that we can see and feel. Common sense would dictate that believing in God, just like believing in magic, doesn't make sense. Because if God existed, science should show evidence of Him. Also, science itself takes a fair degree of faith. Believing that science explains everything and that there's nothing beyond our current scientific beliefs that we can't yet detect, takes a faith of its own. After all, most people have never seen cells and DNA under a microscope, but they believe scientists who claim to have done so. But many of those same people WON'T believe someone who has claimed to have witnessed a miraculous healing.

See, here's the short of it: Jesus' apparent sacrifice was so isolated an incident, with such inconclusive results, that one has to question the veracity of it. One would be foolish not to.

Fair enough. But when questioning the veracity of Jesus existence, even non-Christian historians are divided, even if he was at least a man CLAIMING to be the son of God. So even then, it kind of comes down to which side you choose (or want) to believe as true. And could you clarify "inconclusive results"?

Not to mention that the average follower goes to great lengths to dismiss the pagan roots of his sacrifice, completely ignoring the fact that the tale of the divine son being sacrificed for the sake of mortals everywhere has been mirrored through dozens of cultures throughout the many thousands of years preceding the rise of Rome.

Would you mind describing a couple of these tales of divine sons being sacrificed. Preferably with varying cultures, preceding the rise of Rome. I've heard a couple of poor comparisons from different cultures, but not very many (not that I looked very much). And as far as I know, believers in those cultures weren't threatened with imprisonment, torture, and death like some Christians were and are.

It doesn't make any sense to me. And it strikes me as a very weak and whimsical attempt to impose much the same principles as we've been struggling to eradicate worldwide since the conception of the United States. One, solitary ruler who demands utter loyalty in exchange for the right to be happy. And by "happy", I mean either you are content, or you fake it like hell until you believe it. We fight that sort of idealism for our whole lives, only to embrace it when we have all of eternity to devote to it. Dafuq?

Giving allegiance to a tyrant because He demands it, is different from pursuing a relationship with a Heavenly Father because I choose to. Secondly, there is a difference between "content" and "happy". I'm not content that Jesus is in my life. I'm happy that He is. Also, God does not "demand utter loyalty in exchange for the right to be happy". People can be (and many are) happy without God in their life. I choose to give my allegiance to God.

reply to post by EPH612

Fair example, except that that is starting out by assuming that you're being lied to. Remove that assumption, and that would leave a third possible result: it could be the truth.

...Yeah, that's how kids get kidnapped. And no, that's not an overly dramatic statement.

Except for one thing: Intense faith is not logical. It goes against our nature as human beings in our modern society to believe in something that we can see and feel. Common sense would dictate that believing in God, just like believing in magic, doesn't make sense. Because if God existed, science should show evidence of Him. Also, science itself takes a fair degree of faith. Believing that science explains everything and that there's nothing beyond our current scientific beliefs that we can't yet detect, takes a faith of its own. After all, most people have never seen cells and DNA under a microscope, but they believe scientists who claim to have done so. But many of those same people WON'T believe someone who has claimed to have witnessed a miraculous healing.

That first sentence there undermines every point you've been trying to make so far. Intense faith is not logical, yet that's all you have.

Sure, okay, show me where to point the microscope and we'll see if there's any conclusive evidence that points to a deity. But I gotta tell you, I don't think we'll find anything that scientists haven't already examined with a fine-toothed comb.

Fair enough. But when questioning the veracity of Jesus existence, even non-Christian historians are divided, even if he was at least a man CLAIMING to be the son of God. So even then, it kind of comes down to which side you choose (or want) to believe as true. And could you clarify "inconclusive results"?

Either side of the case can be easily argued, to the point that neither side will win. It's an impasse. Also known as "inconclusive".

Would you mind describing a couple of these tales of divine sons being sacrificed. Preferably with varying cultures, preceding the rise of Rome. I've heard a couple of poor comparisons from different cultures, but not very many (not that I looked very much). And as far as I know, believers in those cultures weren't threatened with imprisonment, torture, and death like some Christians were and are.

I would mind, actually. Do your own research. It gets a little tiring when people just come up with opinions and don't bother to check their facts. Instead, they demand that every person who actually knows what they're talking about do the work for them.

Go ahead, look it up. I'm sure you have 20 minutes to spare on Google.

Giving allegiance to a tyrant because He demands it, is different from pursuing a relationship with a Heavenly Father because I choose to.

1) He does demand it, actually. Any person who is not aligned with him, is automatically against him. There is no neutral ground.

2) Why do you choose to pursue a relationship with this figment?

Secondly, there is a difference between "content" and "happy". I'm not content that Jesus is in my life. I'm happy that He is.

That's the equivalent of saying, "I'm happy my dead mother is in my life." She's not with you physically, but you have enough information to compile an emotional likeness that resembles what you feel she actually is or was, and that's enough to consider her with you. It's not her, it's her memory.

And likewise with Jesus. The memory of everything you have been told, everything you have been read, used to construct an emotional figure that you keep close to your heart because that's what it was constructed for. It's a psychological tool. You can add that to your homework if you like. Psychology and security blankets or comfort objects.

Also, God does not "demand utter loyalty in exchange for the right to be happy". People can be (and many are) happy without God in their life.

At what price? From what I understand - and this is unanimously agreed between virtually all of the religious folk I talk to - choosing to be independent is choosing to be condemned. There's scripture to support that, as well.

Double post.

reply to post by EPH612


I wanted to run this one by you as well. It is one of my more eloquent pieces regarding my opinion of religion as it has developed in today's world.

It's all double speak, double think, whatever. Slavery is Freedom, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength. The mantra made famous by George Orwell in his draconian literary world. The worst traits of humankind bring out the most productive tendencies. As long as society achieves exactly what its most authoritative components determine to be the best for all involved, who cares what means were used to obtain such ends? Eggs must be broken, etc etc.

Faith is knowledge. Fear is love. Oppression is security. These principles are why I personally am an atheist, and I disapprove of such principles being lauded and encouraged in intellectual society. While they may provide the anesthetic function that so many seem to crave, these doctrines do little to foster an emotionally and intellectually productive system by which to mold future generations into the visionary, comprehensive, compassionate leaders we want them to be.

Religion has a purpose as a positive philosophical construct, I admit this. It can be useful.

Key words: can be. Not will be, not is, but can be.

HOWEVER! I maintain that, in my opinion as determined by my critical observations of both the actualities and potentialities of religion as demonstrated by theists worldwide, religion is useful only insofar as it is a casual and recreational practice much the same as meditation and reading are utilized. When religion becomes as mandatory and invasive as taxes, that is when all susceptible parties become subject to the underlying dangers of religiosity...and this danger is only amplified by the psychological manipulation that leads to the redefining of our understanding regarding every abstract virtue we are familiar with, thereby disarming our inbuilt caution in regard to such philosophies. But perhaps some people want to be fooled. Maybe some want to be tricked. Maybe they want to wash their hands of every danger and risk involved in being human. I don't know.

There are legal obligations...and there are social protocols. To my thinking, social protocols are far more binding and pervasive than any legal obligation, and religion falls under this heading.

Pay very close attention to that last sentence, as it is one of the most crucial aspects of religion at this point. It is no longer law, so its shadowy agents are using the next best thing - cultural wagons. If it's a popular medium, it will be used. It will be used like a syringe in the night. A tiny sting, and the sugary rush of the latest craze will obscure the whisper of guidance as religiosity sinks into the mind like a seed into the earth. Just a tiny idea that's buried beneath the 'here and now', the stimuli of the pop world. Then comes the lurch. The panic. Something needed to make you cling to that idea as your own, make you nourish it yourself. You have to accept it as your own desire, your own craving, otherwise you'll reject it. And for that...something must be engineered.

You think they won't? Religion is one of the most vastly powerful tools mankind has ever stumbled across. Something that men are willing to kill for is valuable. Something men are willing to die for...is priceless. It is a machine waiting to be steered. It is power, significance, meaning. To hold that kind of control in your hand...well, let's just say it's an alluring prize for some people. Too alluring to resist. When you are convinced that the world is just a chaotic storm waiting to capsize and consume itself, what reason do you have to keep from reaching the top while you can? What other purpose is there to life?

Something else to consider: maybe I'm not the only one who has realized the potential of the above scenario. Maybe it's a design someone else set in motion. Maybe it's a game, a game intended to regulate the rise and fall of power so the Game Keeper will never have to fear its own destruction. Or maybe the Game Keeper is just interested in keeping the world alive for one more day. That, to me, is the 26 trillion dollar question.

That must be what it feels like to really play god...and the upper echelons of the grand game of chess are fighting for the throne, using us to generate their power. Oh, what a marvelously intricate game it is! And we're the expendable gears that keep the clock going. Unless...we take the road less traveled. That's what Robert Frost did, and it made all the difference. I wonder why?

Originally posted by BlackManINC

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Originally posted by BlackManINC

To what purpose you ask? Its all for the day of judgement. If humanity chooses to go against Gods commandments as they have done since the beggining of time in the days of Eden, then let them hang themselves by their own rope, as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences that they are surely aware will be dealt to them accordingly when the time comes, in this life or the other. As the apostle Paul correctly stated in addressing the atheist Athenian philosphers of the time, they knew who God was from the beginning. We know this because we can see traces of their monotheistic faith in literally every culture in some of their stories that can be compared to Genesis. Thats why he stated that "they are without excuse" when they turned the truth of God on its head mixing it in with the idolatrous mystery religion they adopted from Babylon under differnt names, "the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth".

Tracing Genesis Through Ancient Culture

There is no greater more recent example of this then what has happened in America. Not only does the Bible say not to put trust in man in many differnt versers, but it also says in verses like Proverbs 3:5-6 not to put trust in yourself as well, to instead put your trust in the Lord to direct your path through life. Surely, we have a mind of our own, and God tells us to use it, but without guidance from God, humanity is entirely incapable of directing their own path as they will inevitably spiral into depravity and destroy themselves as seen throughtout history, which is a major message of the Bible, starting with the story of Eden.

BlackManINC; as much as I understand your miasms your twisting with heartfelt integrity, you must realise that for me I have to believe your ideas as my own to be true. So, my experience in this life is completely different. I recognise your understandings but have a different view. Humanity has shown itself to be incapable of managing itself; effect extreme cruelty upon its brothers. It will destroy itself AGAIN with its Creators blessing, to again climb on the hampster wheel. We have the mind to correct this continued destruction but for some reason will not make imperfect thought PERFECT. There is something intrinsically wrong with the human that wishes to improve itself and unfortunately results in the demise of Civilizations. Its almost as if we are intended to deconstruct/destroy those cherished sites to Create better ones; and in so doing kill maim and personify chaos. I love God, I am of God and I hate the God I have allowed to exist in my place (absence). Iam here the same as you.