Woman Education in Islam

Originally posted by wildtimes
I wonder what you think is his objective.

Taqiyya and Kitman.

OBVIOUSLY women in Islam aren't treated 'with respect' like the OP claimed. Obviously they don't get the same education opportunities that women in the USA get. And the OP isn't addressing the FACTS that I presented showing this.

Newsweek - 2009 article

n some parts of the world, women's basic literacy and education reflects serious inequality: in Yemen women's literacy is only 28% vs. 70% for men; in Pakistan, it is 28% vs. 53% for men. Percentages of women pursuing post-secondary educations dip as low as 8% and 13% in Morocco and Pakistan respectively (comparable to 3.7% in Brazil, or 11% in the Czech Republic).

But these figures do not represent the entire Muslim world; women's literacy rates in Iran and Saudi Arabia are 70% and as high as 85% in Jordan and Malaysia. In education, significant percentages of women in Iran (52%), Egypt (34%), Saudi Arabia (32%), and Lebanon (37%) have post-secondary educations.

** Make note that the 'secondary educations' of Iranian women now do not include access to those degrees that earn significant money. They are not allowed access to higher math or science anymore. No more engineering or science degrees for women in Iran. I previously posted that information.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Even in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, wich have high literacy rates among all communities, including Muslims, the work participation rate of Muslims is 14 percentage points lower than that Hindus

so when literacy is the same the article shifts to work participation to continue propogating a moot point?
If educated muslim women don't work, it would also be used to pass a judgement against Islam?

what is your criteria? Or is it floating with the only objective to make Islam look bad even at the expense of making yourself look ridiculously prejudices?

Brazil also has low literacy rate and majority are christian, so it means... sorry i won't say it.

Christiandom has a high literacy rate? Really? Well the rate is high after Christiandom got doomed and crushed at the hands of secularism, your article claimed higher literacy as a result of christianity
i read a book Pope Joah recently it shows how women were treated when Christiandom was really in power, and the pic i posted showed that women started getting educated in the west in the 19th century.
Just 200 years till now.
So you are really lucky to be born in this time otherwise you would be worse off than any muslim woman and so don't take the moral high ground when exactly the opposite happened in the muslim world and you are judging Islam from events in the last 100years.

Your progress started when your people kicked their religion away.
Our progress stopped when muslims stopped following Islam. It should to obvious to anyone who has read both histories.

I obviously support sharia and its not your interpretation not the KSA or Iran's idea that you so love to post but the real Islamic principles that muslims who know the basics of their religion understand and admire and want to implement in their life and society and they include both men and women.

You showed your obvious bias very clearly when you answered my question about what you think of educated Western women accepting Islam and being 70% of the total converts in USA.
You shouldn't be questioning their mental status if you really stood up for woman's right to choose.

They are fine and just found what real Islam is.
Anyone who does not accept their choice without thinking degradingly of them has no right to point fingers..

reply to post by logical7

what is your criteria? Or is it floating with the only objective to make Islam look bad even at the expense of making yourself look ridiculously prejudices?

What is YOUR criteria?

The backward, violent Muslims make Islam look bad. And FF and the rest of us who've been trying to wrap our heads around your position are NOT looking "ridiculously prejudiced." You might check the mirror for ridiculousness - you refuse to address the real, factual problems in your culture and blame it on "the evil West" or "fake Musims."

THAT is what's ridiculous. As soon as the Western colonialists left that part of the world, your culture went downhill, and is now basking in the glow of Iron Age barbarism and inhumane behavior.

Are you saying that Dr Engineer's work is ALSO wrong? That's one of the BEST sites I've seen for real "Islamic" worldviews. You would do well to address our perceptions of FACTS that are going on,

and perhaps enlighten us as to how YOU intend to improve the "image" of Islam - so far, you're only making people turn even further away with your superior, chauvinistic attitude. Do you not get that?? Really?

Where do you live? What is your job? Are your sisters educated? Are your parents? If you come from the "affluent" part of Indian Muslims, why are you not in oh-so-elite and enlightened "Pakistan"? How many of you "real Muslims" are there in your area? Do you dress down the "fake Muslims" where you live?

:shk: Your mockery of others will NEVER win you followers. Quit whining about 'the evil West' and do something about improving the image - and status - of Muslims where YOU live! You all just can't get along with each other, and I, for one, am sick of your pity party. Poor, maligned Muslims.... you are simply INCAPABLE of seeing things how they are, aren't you? Yes, you are.

reply to post by logical7

Your progress started when your people kicked their religion away.

And YOUR progress STOPPED altogether, and went into decline and chaos, as soon as "your people kicked the colonists away"!

The Muslim Clergy, Mullahs and Moulavis, are often blamed for the backwardness of the Muslim community. It is held that not all the Mullahs and Moulavis are well-versed in the religious aspects of Islam. However, there is nothing to restrain them from issuing fatwas on all and sundry matters, without realising the adverse impact that such fatwas may have on the persons/families seeking religious guidance.

Not all the problems of the modern times have answers in the Qur'an and Hadith. It is for the Muslim Clergy issuing fatwas to consider the issues carefully before handing out their opinions on a given matter.

The challenges before the Muslim community are not only numerous but also varied.

The community is in need of a proper guidance so that it does not find itself mired in further complications by heeding to fatwas that are not well thought of. The main purpose [of the workshop] was, therefore, to invite discussions of the socio-economic issues than delve into religious issues.

....

Recommendations from last year's workshop WORKSHOP FOR AWARENESS CREATION AND SENSITIZATION OF ULEMA
13TH TO 14TH JUNE 2012, LUCKNOW:

· ---->Muslim Community should give more importance to secular education for social upliftment.


· ----> The quality of syllabus in Madrassa should be improved.


· ----> The curriculum of science subject in Madrassa should be modified in such a way that students should be able to develop scientific temper. Syllabus should be in compliance with modern educational theories.


· ----> As even poor Muslims want to send their children to English medium schools, the community should set up English medium schools. Muslim managements should to start schools for technical education.


· Zakat should be collected by the Zakat Board should be used for education and other activities

· ----> The text books used in Madrassa are translated from Hindi, and there are lots of mistakes due to poor translation. Students who only have madrassa education are less likely to get government jobs

· ---->Islamic world also should try to establish universities like Oxford and Cambridge.


· Community leaders and organisations should take initiatives to start IAS and IPS training centres for youth in the community, which would result in changes in the level of policy making in the long run.


· ----> Gender based discrimination and violence within the community at the family and society levels should be addressed properly.


· ----> Muslim women are not getting proper religious education as well.


· Microfinance can be used for the development of community women.

But I know, you don't care about that kind of stuff. you prefer to blame 'the West' and stick to archaic traditions and education.

Originally posted by logical7
what is your criteria?

SImple. Educated vs uneducated. Literate vs illiterate.

Brazil also has low literacy rate and majority are christian, so it means...

It means nothing. This entire thread is a response to your strange inflammatory opening post that was devoid of any facts, and that tried to paint Islam as some mecca for women to be educated in while at the same time disparaging non-Muslim countries and their female education system. And as I posted earlier, the stats show clearly that your utopia-for-women-in-islam spin is absolutely false.

Christiandom has a high literacy rate? Really?

Really. Higher than those women stuck in Sharia law. I gave the statistics.

i read a book Pope Joah recently it shows how women were treated when Christiandom was really in power,

1 - Pope who? Are you saying Joan? There was never a pope Joan. That's a fable.
2 - How women were treated with Christians were in power .. well guess what ... SECULAR rule of law is what helps move women along in equal rights. Don't try pulling stats out from 1,000 years ago. Lets' talk about TODAY. And today ... women in Sharia law suffer from lack of education and lack of equal rights. I have proven it.

So you are really lucky to be born in this time otherwise you would be worse off than any muslim woman

So you admit that I'm better off than the muslim women who are stuck in Sharia law? And you admit that those women stuck in Sharia law are at least as bad off as women were from a thousand years ago? So you admit that Sharia is backwards moving? Good. That's progress.

so don't take the moral high ground when exactly the opposite happened in the muslim world and you are judging Islam from events in the last 100years.

1 - This sentence can't be folllowed.
2 - I will absolutely take the moral high ground over anyone who supports Sharia law .. because Sharia law is inherently violent towards women and foolish. In addition, it's followers seem to think it's okay to chop the hands off their children and leave them maimed for life over a small infraction like theft. :shk: I absolutely will take the moral high ground over that garbage.

Your progress started when your people kicked their religion away.

And if YOUR people would kick away that FICTION invented by Muhammad ... and stop treating half the population (the female half) like property to be abused .... then YOUR progress toward being a civilization worthy of respect could actually get started.

Our progress stopped when muslims stopped following Islam. It should to obvious to anyone who has read both histories.

Your progress stopped when Muslims started EMBRACING radical Islam and Sharia. That is obvious to anyone who has a brain and can read the statistics and histories. Oooops ... that's right .... the high illiteracy rate amongst Muslims around the word means that many of you can't read that information ... and for those that can read it, you won't accept the truth of it.

I obviously support sharia and its not your interpretation

Sharia is sharia. There is no 'interpretation'.

You showed your obvious bias very clearly when you answered my question about what you think of educated Western women accepting Islam and being 70% of the total converts in USA.

I stated my opinion that it's their right to do stupid things.
And embracing a misogynistic cult is a stupid thing to do.
I stand by my statement.

ON TOPIC ... .STOP DEFLECTING.

What about all the girls schools being burned down every day?
What about the teachers and students being murdered every day?
What about the low literacy rates for muslim women around the world?
What about the fact that I showed your statistics were total bunk?
What about the fact that Iran is now embracing a stricter Islam and is withholding high paying degrees from women in universities because they don't want women to be smarter and higher wage earners than men.

Your opening post was an inflammatory piece of propaganda devoid of any truth. Islam is NOT any kind of educational-mecca for women and women aren't universally treated with respect within Islam. Just admit it. You got called out on the propaganda you posted and it was proven wrong.

Originally posted by wildtimes
And YOUR progress STOPPED altogether, and went into decline and chaos, as soon as "your people kicked the colonists away"!

Did you notice the links I provided that focused on Iran?
When Iran was moving more in a secular way, the people were getting better educations.
Women were in universities getting degrees in engineering and science and chemistry.
NOW .. they are embracing Islamic rule more strongly .. and the women are now barred
from getting their engineering and science and chemistry degrees (barred from 47 different
degrees .. all high paying). The reason given by Iran .. because smart women won't want
to marry dumb men and they won't have children. :shk:

People lift themselves up with secular rule of law.
People decline when they embrace religious rule of law.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yep, I saw it! I've read all the posts in the thread.

What's happening in Egypt AGAIN is due to the oppression imposed by the "Muslim Brotherhood." Egyptians are sick of it. I'd venture to say that the entire world is sick of the Muslim crap going on. Including the Muslims!

Originally posted by wildtimes
You all just can't get along with each other,

And what happens to the women and their education during all this muslim vs muslim stuff?
(the theme of this thread is education of women in Islam being sooooo much better and all ... )
Oh that's right ... the women are subjected to rape via Sharia fatwa

Washington Times - Islamic Cleric Decrees Rape is OK

An Islamic cleric has cleared the path for rebels in Syria, who are trying to oust President Bashar Assad, to rape women, so long as they’re non-Sunni.

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-Ajlawni, who hails from Jordan but who lived in Damascus for 17 years, sent a message via YouTube: It’s a “legitimate fatwa” for Muslims waging war against Mr. Assad and trying to put in place a Sharia government to “capture and have sex with” Alawites and other non-Sunni, non-Muslim women, Human Events reports. Mr. Assad is part of the Alawites sect.

Rape 14 year olds -
Saudi Imam Issues Fatwa Allowing Jihadists to Rape Women

Muhammad al-Arifi, a Wahhabi religious cleric, is being widely quoted on web sites like Salon as issuing a fatwa that allowed jihadists in Syria fighting the government to enter into “intercourse marriage” that has been taken as authorizing the rape of Syrian women. Al-Arifi is quoted as expressing concern that Saudis fighting with the opposition have not been with a woman in two years and must be allowed to take care of their “sexual problems.”

He is further quoted as restricting the fatwa to Syrian females at least 14 years old, widowed or divorced. Al-Arifi is quoted as saying that such sexual assaults “boost[] the determination of the mujahideen in Syria and is considered a duty to enter paradise for those females who enter such marriages.”

And the muslim in-fighting happens a whole lot ...
Muslim VS Muslim in Bosnia's War

Muslim vs Muslim in the Middle East

The recent declaration of a fatwa (a binding religious decree) by the Sunni Egyptian cleric, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, against the Shia militant movement, Hezbollah, and Iran as enemies of Islam who are “more infidel than Jews and Christians” is a dangerous turn portending endless war among Muslims on sectarian lines.

Qaradawi’s poisonous rhetoric, which is influencing tens of millions of Sunnis globally via the Qatari television channel, Al Jazeera, is exacerbating the fratricide in Syria, where violence between Sunnis and Shiites is bringing back memories of historic battles and grudges between the two main sects of Islam.

Muslims fighting Muslims (because of religion) in Iraq

Muslims fighting Muslims (because of religion) in Modern London

You Tube - Muslims fighting other Muslims (because of religion) in Syria

Muslims Factions in Masaka Fight (over religion)

Why are Muslims Killing Each Other

Nevertheless, Muslims killing Muslims has amounted to over 10m. In other words, over the past 60 years 90% of the Muslims killed have been killed by their own people this surely is not Islam! Why are Muslim sects so hateful of one another? What right has the Taliban to think that its ideology has to be accepted by all others? Do they think that just by forcing women to wear black from head to toe is following Islam? Is it the dress or the mind that has to be Islamic? What the Islamic world cannot deny is that it may follow Islam but Muslims are united in hate. As aspect that is making Islam what it is, is its close association to politics which goes hand in hand with the desire for power o f a cult/tribe.

Some Imams who called for rape ...
Egyptian Imam tells men to rape Egyptian women protesters
Imam Claims Women Who Don't Wear Hijabs Are Asking to Be Raped

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

If you want to preach, ATS isn't the place for it.

Correct.

Its better that we remain silent, sit back and enjoy the great show being put on by the west.

How so?

But remember, our friends here imagine the worst about OUR community and wouldn't hesitate to bring up a worst case scenario to point fingers at Islam. Ever time it happens, just remind them of their own decadence...

That's just stupid. Address the problems within your OWN culture....
"remind them of their own decadence"

reply to post by logical7

Thanks for your concern and suggestions i would definitely use them against the hopeless kind!!

It's a stupid idea to use them. It causes polarization, NOT discussion. Are you serious? Finger-pointing is the lamest thing ever in intellectual debate.
:shk:

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

just remind them of their own decadence...

That's just stupid. Address the problems within your OWN culture...:

Decadence -

a luxurious self-indulgence. It is often used to describe a decline due to an erosion of moral, ethical, or sexual traditions.

"Decadence" is subjective. Sexual and moral traditions in Islam in regards to women are already eroded. The calls for rape and the severe lack of education allowed and the selling off of daughters as young as 12 years old in 'marriage' .... I don't consider those to be moral or ethical and they certainly aren't traditions worthy of continuation in a civilized society IMHO. What these Sharia people call 'decadence' .. like allowing and encouraging education and self reliance in women as well as equality in the eyes of the law, and self determination, ... are things that the rest of the planet considers to be uplifting correct behavior for humanity. One persons 'decadence' is another persons common sense and uplifting behavior. Education of women, IMHO is common sense and uplifting behavior. It's not 'decadence', even though the Sharia folks on the other side of the planet want to run their countries in a way that doesn't allow women the ability to even read a book.

reply to post by logical7

muslim men "know their place" too, why you paint the term as bad? Each individual has responsibilities and rights in a society and its better for harmony if they do things accordingly.
I stated muslim women are not ashamed to be women and are accepted as women without a need to impress or prove themselves.

So say... IF a man decided he wanted to be a nurse... that would be acceptable? There wouldn't be any backlash from the community?

a woman is free to choose. You answer me why you ask such questions?

Im curious... that's why I ask questions...

Is it not because women in west are brainwashed by feminist ideology to "prove" themselves better than a man in any field?

no...

Why is the other sex an enemy rather than a equal helper to make life easier?

That is your assumption... I said nothing of the sort

A woman can choose to do business if she wants but muslim women don't have that overt need to do it to "show them"

Why do you believe women in the west need to prove anything to anyone... Of course there are a few with that mentality... most don't give a flying duck what anyone thinks... especially male competitors

what woman "chooses" to be a single mother? except hardcore brainwashed feminist?

Well lets see... My mother chose to be a single mother... Shes not a "hardcore feminist"... Shes just a strong lady that didn't need help from anyone... Intelligent and driven in everything she does... shes my hero too by the way... Such ridiculous assumptions

If a muslim woman ends up as a single mother, she is helped by the society and under sharia its the state's responsibility to care for her wellbeing. She can work if she is able to and wants to but if not then her male relatives or if she has nobody then the state will provide her. The ex husband has to provide for the kid/s completely and even her if she does not have any source.

Ya... we call that welfare... and child support...

What if she doesn't have an ex husband? Will she be stoned for having a baby out of wedlock?

reply to post by logical7

do you even realise that you have a typical sterotype view about muslims?

Actually I do realise that.... That's why I've been asking you questions for the past few months...

Do YOU realise your views of the west are rather backwards as well?

Some places it may happen that women walk behind and the people don't know much about islam, they rather follow what they saw their fathers following(thats actual how majority get a religion), its not a law in islam! Its more a male dominating culture which accepted islam and now all of the cultural things are assumed to represent islam!
It would be same as me asking are all the sterotypes and jokes about canadians being true!

I welcome questions like that... And by the way there are tons of muslims in Canada... and immigrants from other countries that have sharia laws... I've heard a lot of the stories from those I've met... and none of them have been good... Most I've talked to came hear running from such things.

reply to post by Akragon

Actually I do realise that.... That's why I've been asking you questions for the past few months...

Do YOU realise your views of the west are rather backwards as well?

Well spoken. I realize it, too.....that's why I've been asking questions as well (without receiving adequate answers),

and, NO, he DOES NOT realize his views of the West are rather backwards.......

reply to post by Akragon

So say... IF a man decided he wanted to be a nurse... that would be acceptable? There wouldn't be any backlash from the community?

No backlash
the roles are not strictly so gender specific and they shouldn't be. My school friend is working as a male nurse and my cousin sister has just become a professor of Mathametics.
So i hope nobody assumes that i think that women can't be smart or capable enough to pursue any career.
I am just saying that muslim women don't need to study because they must provide for themselves and that needs a good job. They can study when they want to and as much as they want to or choose to just get married. Either way they are respected and not judged by their education or less of it.

reply to post by Akragon

Well lets see... My mother chose to be a single mother... Shes not a "hardcore feminist"... Shes just a strong lady that didn't need help from anyone... Intelligent and driven in everything she does... shes my hero too by the way... Such ridiculous assumptions

i don't know your mother but i do agree that she must be strong.
I still cannot agree that her decision was completely unrelated to the circumstances. Maybe she was just disgusted by the quality of men available around and wanted to raise you better than have that kind of influence on you.
Being a single mother is like choosing to be alone. Who wants to be alone by choice? Unless there was hurts and scars of the past and being alone is an improvement.

reply to post by logical7

Being a single mother is like choosing to be alone. Who wants to be alone by choice? Unless there was hurts and scars of the past and being alone is an improvement.

Not everyone has a problem with being alone brother... We come into this world alone, and we leave the same way... no one comes with us... its a solo mission.

And yes, obviously there were issues from the past... im saying, it happens...

So what of births out of wedlock... would that women be treated the same as one who had a child while married?

reply to post by Akragon

What if she doesn't have an ex husband? Will she be stoned for having a baby out of wedlock?

NOT under Sharia
stoning is only for adulterers who cheat on their spouses and choose to destroy two families for their selfish individualism and its almost impossible to find 4 witnesses who have seen the actual "act"
its a deterent. The harshness of some punishments just shows how much impact they have in degrading the society if left unchecked.
An unmarried woman being pregnant is not a proof that she committed fornication under Sharia. If that was the case, Mary would also have to be judged likewise and Sharia is consistent.
Due to one exception in History all get the benefit of doubt and thats the basic principle of Sharia
"better to let go 10 criminals unpunished due to some doubt rather than punish one innocent"