Leaving the United States? Research.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
If Democrats/Liberals are the type of people who flee the country when their candidate isn't elected, what does it say to the rest of the country about them--\
Don't you all understand that it paints a picture of Dems as being cry-babies--that it hurts the Dems's cause even more?\

Your not reading what we are saying...or it's not soaking in...people are truly scared of him!

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
If Democrats/Liberals are the type of people who flee the country when their candidate isn't elected, what does it say to the rest of the country about them--\
Don't you all understand that it paints a picture of Dems as being cry-babies--that it hurts the Dems's cause even more?\

Your not reading what we are saying...or it's not soaking in...people are truly scared of him!

I think what he is saying has some merit. Are you going to run away because of the President? If you are afraid of him then don't run, get active in your belief and do something about it.

We have to fight for our Constitution, to make certain that our freedoms continue unabated from current color of law designs.

It is a fact from court decisions, and from common sense "any law that violates the Constitution of the United States, is null and void." It is too bad that our recent laws are so infected with anti-Constitutional things that is would take endless and exhaustive rounds in court to overturn each and every congressional disservice in these laws.

One would not want to throw away all our hard fought freedoms just because recent laws are null and void! Stay and fight the tyranny!

If it is announced formally under current color of law and authority that the Constitution is no longer operative, then in violation of that specfic contract with the people, any subsequent "government," is also null and void as regards any current loyal citizen of the states.

It will be a sad day when another false terror attack is used again as a pretext for such a move. They will probably use the Constitution to justify their own existence as a government, but nullify it to suit their dark and unnecessary purposes. "They," being of course actors, those hypocrits claiming governmental authority under a false pretext.

I am staying, because the best chance to fight tyranny is right here in the United States, we the people will and must never be undermined ever during the exercise of our God given freedoms. Tyranny is a loser in history, and those who practice tyranny will lose big time.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by SkipShipman]

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
If you are afraid of him then don't run, get active in your belief and do something about it.

This fool has the senate, the house, and the presidency...tell me what could someone do "now" that will change anything...name something!

I agree with LadyV here, people are really, really scared of Bush. I know I am.

Anyways, I was planning on leaving the United States within the next four years regardless of what happened in the election, but not for political reasons. I've been planning on going across the pond again, this time to work on a doctorate in France.

I will say though that I actually feel safer in France then I do in the United States while Bush is in charge. I'm not just speaking of terrorism here, there really seems to be some ideological persecution going on in America these days. When did Liberal become a dirty word?

On the other hand, I've been torn as I've begun to feel that I am turning away from America when she needs me and those like me most. I've started looking at American universities more for my grad work and, while they are not as good as the one I was going to attend in France, I'd probably feel better knowing I stayed and made a stand for what I believed in.

Eventually moderates will take back America's government, and I'm probably going to stay and help that happen sooner rather than later.

Sure I'm scared, but there's something to be said for those brave enough to stick it out.

Viva La Resistance!
~Astral

You realize that by moving to Canada you are only taking a temproary step away from Bush and co. Canada and the US are inextricably tied to each other, and the US is the one doing all the pulling. I cannot say how much time moving to Canada will give you. Maybe 10 years, maybe less, maybe 50 years. It all depends.

Myself, I am 16 and fairly concerned about a draft. A nation constantly at war cannot levy all its troops voluntarily forever.

As soon as I am out of college I will be looking in to leaving the US seriously. My prime choices will be New Zealand or Australia. Canada is nice, but too close to the US. If I really wanted to be safe I would move to an Asian country but I am not up to that amount of a culture change. As a last resort I could buy a 60 foot sailboat and live on the sea, ahving citizenship in no country.

For those of you who are saying we weaken our political parties by leaving, this is not about the parties now. We are playing hardball. For keeps. I look out for myself first. I do not have any political leanings. So I have no party. So this is not a problem for me.

Someone on this thread said something about changing the minds of young muslims by talking to them. I like that example. There is political work to be done for the US outside of its borders. Remember that.

On those same lines, my dad is a christian, and when he gets home I intend to debate with him his veiws of muslims, becuase the bible calls them heathens and calls for thier conversion. I wonder how his faith will hold up under that angle of questioning...

Originally posted by LadyV
This fool has the senate, the house, and the presidency...tell me what could someone do "now" that will change anything...name something!

Don't forget the judiciary. There is no political opposition. What happened to the balance of powers?



Halo 2... and I don;t have an xbox. @$#!@%!

I understand why people want to leave. I am not a politically motivated individual. It has been my understanding, from what I have read, that people are afraid. They are afraid that they aren't safe. Its been building for quite some time now, and this election, which many believe to be fraudulant, was the last straw. If our votes don't count, our rights are in jeopardy, our country is at war against our wishes, and we don't feel safe, these are ligitimate reasons to go somewhere else that, in our opinion, will be safer. This does NOT make a person a crybaby, or un-american. It doesn't make them stupid or a democrat. It simply makes them....seeking a safe place for themselves, their children, etc. Safe as in a place where they vote, and it isn't in vain, where there aren't laws that make them fear their own government, and where their opinion about war counts. I don't know if there is such a place, but if the ones who want to leave percieve it as safer, then they should not be ridiculed for their beliefs.

As far as references to Hitler, there are over 600 concentration camps in the US that can house an average of 20,000 "prisoners". That means they can hold 12 million "prisoners". Plus there is a large facility in Alaska that can hold 2 million more. That's 14 million "prisoners". Where will these 14 million "prisoners" come from? I doubt they would be flown in from other countries. The population of the US in 2000 was just over 285 million.

That means the government has the ability to hold approximately 1 person out of 20 in the US.

Is Bush like Hitler? I don't know. But I can try to see other people's perspectives for long enough to see why they might think so. I found this information in just under 15 minutes. And I would venture a guess that there are more similarities to our government and Nazi Germany than any of us would care to admit. So before we say someone's ideas or beliefs are stupid, maybe we should take a moment to make sure our own ignorance isn't showing.

Case in point to the previous poster is now Bush has control over all three branches of government, much like Hitler took control of the German govt just before WWII. And I just came up with that off the top of my head.

Well, I believe both LadyV and Cassie made good points here:

We are not all warriors, ideological, spiritual, tactical or otherwise, and as such some people are much more apt to leave. I wouldn't judge based on it.

I can really only talk for myself. I'm going to be here for at least another two years for sure, and those are going to be hard fought years.

LadyV, you probably arlready understand where I'm standing on wanting to stay and fight out the next four years, some people when frightened have a stronger fight than flight response. I'm not judging on which is better or worse, just that I feel the draw to stay.

Cassie, I understand your arguments, I too feel that we need to retake America, but I don't think that it's fair to judge those who leave as playing to the Right-Wing agenda. People leave for all sorts of reasons, fear is a very big motivator. If I had children (goddess please forbid) I would not want them growing up in America these days, and I totally understand the draw of people who wish to leave. I would just ask that they keep dual citizenship if possible so that they may vote in the upcoming elections.

Viva La Resistance!
~Astral

Do you doubters not even read other posts on ATS, or do you skip the ones outlining evidence showing Bush is on a crash course with history, in a bad way?

www.oldamericancentury.org... The original article. Still looking for the nice post someone wrote about it just a few days ago.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Just search the forums under Bush fascism or Hitler or similar terms. These kinds of threads have been all over ATS, so for you to have missed them is willful ignorance.

And the reason anyone would consider running for their lives rahter than face this nightmare is because they are actually trying to keep their lives. You've heard & seen all the prison abuses. All it takes is one overzealous cop, and you're one of those statistics. If they're lucky, your family may get an apology, but most likely you'll be written off as a terrorist so they don't look so bad for killing an innocent american by accident. Would you like to stick up for your rights and be one of those poor folk violated in Gitmo, only to be released as an "oops!"? It's just a news story to us, but people's lives are being ruined every day, for nothing.

And it just takes one "civilian casualty" to wreck your life if that happens to be you, or your spouse, or your child. A real american would never vote for someone who wanted to remove our rights. But now that it's too late, I guess it's easier to mock the issue than deal with it.

--saerlaith

Originally posted by HarmoniusOne

As far as references to Hitler, there are over 600 concentration camps in the US that can house an average of 20,000 "prisoners".

And just where are these 'concentration camps'? Did you 'learn' that on the internet? That is complete bull s. If that was true, most of the posters on this board that live in the U.S. would be in one. Get real. FACTS not internet fiction is what I am after.

John

In the words of some great american eagles "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"

In the words of another great american "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists"

So really you've a one way ticket to ride!

Relax and let the powers that be control all that is for you... Because it is their vision that really counts not yours!.... There is no escape!

Gazz

Originally posted by NothingMakesSense
You realize that by moving to Canada you are only taking a temproary step away from Bush and co. Canada and the US are inextricably tied to each other, and the US is the one doing all the pulling. I cannot say how much time moving to Canada will give you. Maybe 10 years, maybe less, maybe 50 years. It all depends.

That's my dilemma!! I know if things go the way Bush & Co want them, no place is safe in one way or another. And I'm not used to thinking in terms of running. I've always enjoyed standing up against oppression, and have done plenty. But this is the first time I honestly feel that my efforts would count for nothing, and if I want to live the rest of my years in a nice little house with a garden and my pets, then maybe I'd best do something else than try the Tianamen Square thing.

What good can I do if I'm dead or imprisoned somewhere? There are plenty of people with the energy and drive to stand & fight. Maybe my experience is put to best use by finding ways to support them, rather than being a casualty. For all I know, Canada could be ready to round up all immigrants for terrorist processing back to the US. Or maybe ther are some back room talks going on in other countries about how to fix the "Bush problem". Who knows how any of this will turn out. I tried voting. I tried protesting, writing letters, boycotting, etc. Still we have a man in the white house who is wreaking havoc on what I grew up thinking was good about america.

ANd maybe in 4 years, we'll get some balance back. But in that 4 years a lot of ugliness can, and is, happening.

--Saerlaith

And yet another thread has degenerated into name calling and extremist viewpoints. I'll alert Skeptic for you guys...

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
If Democrats/Liberals are the type of people who flee the country when their candidate isn't elected, what does it say to the rest of the country about them--\
Don't you all understand that it paints a picture of Dems as being cry-babies--that it hurts the Dems's cause even more?\

Your not reading what we are saying...or it's not soaking in...people are truly scared of him!

If you are truly scared, then I think you should move to a place where you feel safe.

But please keep in mind that other countries may not be the bastions of liberalism & freedom that you may think--which is why the word "research" in the thread title is so important.

For instance, here is a Canadian webite called Freedomsite.org. Paradoxically, it both lists various instances of freedoms being curtailed in Canada and is itself a virulently conservative website. And they don't seem too happy about sudden influxes of immigrants, neither. Here is another such site. I find these sites ironic in that they have the same level of paranoia about their government as we have.

Here is another page with info & links about Canadian Civil Rights concerns:
www.alkalizeforhealth.net...

Does Canada have its share of Christian organizations seeking to interfere & influence public policy? Well yes it does! How 'bout that?

And here is another site chock full of Christian organizations in Canada dedicated to "promoting Biblically Based Public Policy." For some reason they don't like Wiccans very much...

Oh, here is another site, Canadianconservatives.com. I liked a comment on this site that wondered why the liberals labelled them "stupid & ignorant" just for voting their candidate into office...

I could go on & on.

Research also should be done on Canada's version of the Patriot Act & why citizens are concerned.

Of course, there is always France. Do you think they ban the wearing of pentagrams in public schools the way they ban headscarves & other religious symbols?

Yes, I think research needs to be done before making such a decision. And once all the thorough research is done, if you feel giving up your United States citizenship is what you want, then you should do that.

The Astral City, I am a survivor and a fighter. But I'm also not stupid. I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, which led to a severe drug addiction at a very early age, that I also kicked, cold turkey. If I wasn't a fighter, I wouldn't' be living today...this is different....what do you do to fight a government "like this one"....what? I fear there is no hope for elections in 2008...we're screwed NOW.....and we won't make it till then without paying hell.......you wait and see. Will I actually leave? I dunno. I have grandchildren here that won't be able to leave......it something I am thinking on. My roots are deep here wtih my ancestors, but America is now a scary place to live, much like it was for them when they were being headed to the reservations!

LadyV: I never said you weren't a strong fighter. I'd be honored to stand beside you in this fight, and I totally agree that this nation will get horribly worse before things get better. My grandfather and grandaunt fought in the French Resistance, and I may well follow in their footsteps. It was suicidal then and it may well be the same now. I've said I don't fault anyone that leaves, it may turn out to be the best thing to do. We are so screwed now, in fact I helped two of my friends chalk those exact words in the main plaza at my university yesterday, but we're no more screwed than other nations have been, and it takes strong fighters to get us back to even.

I think the scariest thing about Bush and a big reason why America could loose lots of good people is his fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

I think the US is slowly moving towards a totalitarian state, the Right Wing now controls two of the three branches of government and they could take the third quite easily depending upon how the health of the Supreme Court justices holds out.

If this happens I believe we could see many of the things that many Americans take for granted overturned, Roe Vs Wade, the Texas sodomy case, and certainly many of the issues of Church and State in education will be overturned. The rights of everyone who is not a Christian are at risk here, and in the end I don't think America will take it.

There's a great online commic strip I love called Sinfest, in one of the strips, the main characters walk past a fenced in "Free speech zone," a line of riot troops and a tv spouting war propaganda. One of the characters then turns to the other and comments "It's like they're daring us to revolt!" This is how many of my friends and fellow students see their everyday lives now, and I doubt that they would take much more. I'm betting the 2008 election will be a landslide against the NeoCons, that is, if it happens.

It will probably get much much worse before it gets better though, and there are probably some very scary times ahead, but there will be a resistance to Bush, and it will win in the end.

Viva La Resistance!
~Astral

[edit on 11/9/2004 by The Astral City]

Still, no one has answered my question. What do you do? Leave until the next election and then leave again if your candidate does not win? Why not just leave for good?

What good comes from a few leaving? I really don't get it. If you leave and become a citizen of another country then you should have to give up your U.S. Citizenship. If you are at work and quit because of the CEO of the company, how often do you get to come back? Seriously. It is about fighting for your thoughts of American life and you cant do that if you quit.

[edit on 11/9/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
Still, no one has answered my question. What do you do? Leave until the next election and then leave again if your candidate does not win? Why not just leave for good?

What good comes from a few leaving? I really don't get it. If you leave and become a citizen of another country then you should have to give up your U.S. Citizenship. If you are at work and quit because of the CEO of the company, how often do you get to come back? Seriously. It is about fighting for your thoughts of American life and you cant do that if you quit.

[edit on 11/9/2004 by just_a_pilot]

I did answer your question Pilot.

I'll answer it again. If I end up deciding to leave this country, I won't come back. Just like when I divorced my husband it was permanent. But it took me 10 years to decide it was the right thing to do. And deciding where my political energies are best spent.

The good coming of a few leaving is that maybe those few live to fight again another day. Who can say how tight things may get shut down here, and ther may need to be other voices not constrained by the powers that be, to tell the truth and keep the dream alive. And those few leaving must be making a pretty strong point to get such a strong reaction. I think the point is something along the lines of - if things are so great here, why would anyone leave? Look at the reasons why people feel leaving is better and see what the truth is to those reasons. You may never feel leaving is the right choice for you, but at least you will have another point of view to look at the situation from, and will have learned more about what scares americans so bad they don't want to be american any more.

On the other side of leaving the country, here's a link to a blog that argues more why staying is good.
stevegilliard.blogspot.com...

This is such a tough choice. My people have always been underdogs and non-conformists and I've always assumed that power is in the hands of the people. For the first time in my near 40 years, that isn't so certain. If power is where the moeny is, most of us are outnumbered.

--Saerlaith