The Trayvon conversation that ended my 8 year friendship.

reply to post by Wookiep


Thanks for posting. Many of the talking points I see are the same ones brought up over and over. Roles reversed, kid, skittles,different verdict. All of those things, amazingly enough, have nothing to do with the facts. They're all just emotional 'what ifs'.

Ya, lol, your convo ended pretty quick, but that's 'cause you must be closer friends.

reply to post by SaturnFX

The kids biggest fault, if what the defense says is true, is lack of wisdom...but that doesn't make him a criminal, it makes him a kid.

I had to think about this for a while. I have a 17 y/o son and I think when a kid stops being a kid is when he gains wisdom and insight. But a kid also stops when they lose their innocence. "kid" is a relative term for some imo. We try to teach our kids wisdom but it's futile. It must be something they learn on their own while some adults never do.
A "kid", as proclaimed by the TM camp conjures images of innocence. And so do skittles. But that bag of weed Trayvon had on his FB wasn't candy and most definitely not the act of "innocence". An innocent kid wouldn't break someone's nose.

As some before me said, divide and conquer, I believe it is exactly the case over here. The proportions that this case has taken are enormous and maybe intentionally made that way.
The media is one of the main suspects when it comes to the disrupted interracial relations, they always put the accent on "African-American", "Hispanic", "Caucasian" etc.

Not trying to be overly-conspiratorial over here but maybe this is it is the beginning of something much bigger? Or maybe again it is molded on purpose so we can forget the whole NSA scandal?

When it comes to this specific case, we can not say if Zimmerman/Treyvon was right or wrong because we do not know what exactly happened. The media always wants to portray the news as they want so believing them would be absurd. They say that this was an act of racism, so the Afro-American community immediately erupts in anger and starts with the violence...Why? If the shooter was "black" and the victim was "white", nothing even close to the proportions that this case has taken would've happened.

The only thing that this case has destroyed isn't your friendship. We see much greater tension between the African American and the Caucasian "community", a lot of anger in the Afro Americans too.
What I'm trying to say is that there is a slight possibility for an interracial conflict of great measures.

reply to post by FlySolo


Bring up skittles because instead of a gun or a knife or heroin, he was armed with skittles.

I am innocent if I go out for a walk tonight concealing a gun. See a person in my neighborhood, follow them, wait for them to get nervous enough to defend themselves, and then shoot them? Sounds like fun, ill keep this in mind if I get bored tonight.

reply to post by ImaFungi


You've made another point I forgot to address.

See a person in my neighborhood, follow them, wait for them to get nervous enough to defend themselves, and then shoot them?

That's not how it went down. I digress, it's your perception of events so it did go down that way. You left out a whole 'lotta filling though. About three weeks worth of testimony and details. Regarding what I put in bold above, do you believe GZ instigated this?

reply to post by FlySolo


If you allow this case to drive a wedge between a friendship, then you have let tptb win. This is what they want, to divide people so we cannot be strong together. Understand? They are driving wedges between races, political parties, countries, etc. We can't let this happen, and it has to start with us and our relationships and views. Inside, we all bleed red. It's time to stop the insanity.

DON'T let them win.

reply to post by FlySolo


If the verdict was determined that zimmerman was guilty, would you accept that the 6 jurors made the correct decision? If you answer no, you would think they made the wrong decision, you will see that is all that arguers are doing.

reply to post by FlySolo


Yes I believe he instigated. Do you think the kid was out that night looking for someone to beat up for fun? The police told zimmerman to go home and let the police take care of their job. Guilty.

reply to post by Taissa


The real guilty one here is the one behind the curtain. I'm thinking, why not make the population want change ( in this case justice), then swoop down and bring it to them?
Step 1: divide
Step 2: choose the majorities side
Step 3: conquer the rest of the world

All kneel! Your new king!

I'm back to ... 'two people with 'attitudes' met on a dark stormy night in Florida and bad things happened when they both made bad decisions'.

reply to post by FlyersFan


this is the best way the whole trayvon/Zimmerman thing has been described.

reply to post by ImaFungi

If the verdict was determined that zimmerman was guilty, would you accept that the 6 jurors made the correct decision? If you answer no, you would think they made the wrong decision, you will see that is all that arguers are doing.

If you remember from my OP, I said at minimum GZ could have had involuntary manslaughter. It was legal red tape that prevented it, not a racist jury, system nor defendant. So to answer your question, yes.

Yes I believe he instigated. Do you think the kid was out that night looking for someone to beat up for fun? The police told zimmerman to go home and let the police take care of their job. Guilty.

That "kid" who you refer to, made text messages that show the contrary.

SANFORD, Fla. – Judge Debra Nelson ruled Wednesday against two key pieces of evidence sought by George Zimmerman’s defense team. Nelson said that text messages from Trayvon Martin’s phone which allegedly showed the slain teen to have a burgeoning penchant for violence will not be allowed into evidence. Read more: dailycaller.com...

In those text messages sent from Martin’s phone — which analysts for the state were not able to obtain — Martin was said to have had conversations with friends about getting into fights. Martin’s half-brother allegedly asked Martin, “when you gonna teach me how to fight?”

Martin also sent text messages showing he was looking to obtain a handgun, he said.



Read more: dailycaller.com...

Link

And what do you consider is instigating a fight? It seems to me most people in the TM camp think its ok to beat someone up just because they're paranoid. Truth is, we will never know the words that transpired before the first punch.

Congratulations fly solo, you crushed him...utterly, with all points made. I know that was your friend but in essence, that's exactly what you did. Two thumbs up.

All the ad hominem and strawman arguments from your friend came as a result of frustration due to lack of a reasonable counter response. However it did seem like you went a bit over the edge midway through towards the end. At that point it was apparent your friend was unable to refute reasonably after you deconstructed his purely emotional/media influenced/racially biased stance but you still kinda pressed the issue. Other than that, kudos.

One other thing that you brought to my attention....
I was getting sick and tired of the victimization in favor of Trayvon which I felt was being over dramatized. All the "he was only a kid", "he was 17 and had his whole life ahead of him,"etc. You alerted me to the fact Trayvon was 6'2 , only a few pounds lighter, and was virtually an unknown stranger to Zimmerman. Now the lost of a life in any aspect related to a situation such as this is a tragedy but my question to all those who I feel are overly sympathetic to Trayvon, (justified but not to some of the levels I'm hearing IMO), is how in the world was GZ supposed to know this? Moreover, if the physical might applied was to the extent that it's capable of overpowering a established grown adult and could possibly cause significant damage, then why WOULDN'T GZ react in the manner he did? Who would be thinking of age at that point in time?

Once again good job.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
Everyone who thinks zimmerman is innocent. I would like them to sincerely consider their opinions on this case, if instead of Trayvon Martin, the 17 year old skittle wielding, hoody wearing highschooler was a white Cornelius Martin III. I guarantee you all would be outraged with what happened and without thinking consider Zimmerman guilty. This is why there is a race issue involved.

The only reason race is involved in this issue is because people inject race into it.
The verdict was the correct one given the presented evidence
and it would have been the same verdict regardless of skin color

Exactly who are you calling racists? the jury? the judge? all white people?
Do you believe the verdict would have been different if the jury was all black?
Is your problem with the verdict? Florida's law?
Do you think that a collective racism energy somehow made the jury give that verdict?

I really don't understand why are people so riled up about this

Following someone and being rude is not a crime and does not justify an attack
Bashing someone's head against the pavement is a crime and does justify lethal force

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by FlySolo

 

Yes I believe he instigated. Do you think the kid was out that night looking for someone to beat up for fun? The police told zimmerman to go home and let the police take care of their job. Guilty.

Court transcripts says it was a non-emergency dispatcher and not the police.
... which indicates to me your opinion is based on halftruth journalism rather than facts.
... I'd also say, it's a race issue to you because you haven't understood, or even bothered to accept how the events unfolded in this event. TM doubled back on Zimmerman... why?

reply to post by FlySolo


I work with mostly black people. One of them (when I informed him prior to the verdict, that Zimmerman would be found not guilty due to lack of evidence) suggested justice will be found other ways and expect a lot of white kids to die, and he didn't see anything wrong with it.

Originally posted by TrueMessiah
Congratulations fly solo, you crushed him...utterly, with all points made. I know that was your friend but in essence, that's exactly what you did. Two thumbs up.

Once again good job.

edit on 18-7-2013 by TrueMessiah because: (no reason given)

Intellect without compassion/empathy or valuing intellectual escapades without compassion is the mark of a psychopath. The friend had no interests in debating. The friend was in an empathic/compassionate and probably a contemplative state of mind. Debating someone who doesn't want a debate, in this case is like making a good friend play a game of tennis with grenades. At best the friend just wants to hang out with another friend... e.g someone who cares, someone who understands how an event has impacted on THEM as a person and not the semantics of the event. Geez some of you guys do/must really suck at being someone's friend when that's all they ask for.

Wow.......

Sad, but I can understand your frustration. You went into this with actual data, and someone responded in anger, with insults, and with hate. In a debate among real life strangers, that isn't such a big deal, but this was someone you called a friend. That does matter. Eight years of friendship should have brought a better response.

I can understand his response, if he hasn't bothered to actually look at all the data, which, from his comments, he hasn't. Anyone actually looking ca see this was a clear case of self defense. Stating this, with facts to back it, should not make someone attack you in that fashion. Sure, you were angry, but again, understandable!

Personally, I haven't discussed this with a lot of people, save here on ATS. Immediate family, yes, and a few political contacts on FB, who agree with me, but that's it. Other family and friends don't talk about it, and I have no plan to bring it up myself. If they do, well, we will see what happens. The little time I am ever on FB (mainly just to keep track of extended family), I don't see it becoming an issue.

I feel for you, though. I can imagine the conversation, if I tried discussing this with at least one family member. It would not go well.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Well that's not disturbing at all.

Originally posted by FlySolo
A "kid", as proclaimed by the TM camp conjures images of innocence. And so do skittles. But that bag of weed Trayvon had on his FB wasn't candy and most definitely not the act of "innocence". An innocent kid wouldn't break someone's nose.

I used to smoke when young. sisters boyfriend gave me my first when I was 14.
I wasn't innocent, but I was a kid still.

My first fight was about 11 years old (new kid, new state).
Not innocent, but still a kid.
Kids stop being "innocent" by your standards pretty much when they enter school and prove themselves.

Now, when I was 15 years old and up, I ran with what was considered a rough crowd (metalheads). We didn't start stuff, and no strangers to people with badges following us around (mostly eyeing us while at the mall eating French fries), but if it was late at night and some random stranger was following me when I was trying to go home..I would definitely be scared and fight or flight would kick in. That was back then.

And if I was fighting a big stalker guy, I would break his nose, snap a kneecap, or anything else I could do in order to secure my safety.

If you were trayvon, and not with the benefit of years, what would you do? Run or fight no doubt was the only thought in his head.

I don't care if he smoked, drank, or anything else...and its a twisted and scumbag thing to bring that up. Was it a drug deal gone bad? no..so you only brought up what he does in his past time for what? To disrespect the dead in order to justify...what?

reply to post by SaturnFX

its a twisted and scumbag thing to bring that up. Was it a drug deal gone bad? no..so you only brought up what he does in his past time for what? To disrespect the dead in order to justify...what?

Sorry you feel that way, I'm not disrespecting anyone, just pointing out that that kid was adult enough to do adult things. .

I suppose the whole underlying argument for the TM crowd is this "Trayvon was immature and not wise enough to make a proper judgement call" "We can't fault a child for making bad choices because, he was just a child" "He had every right to accost someone because "fight or flight" is something kids do and we as adults need to be understanding that kids make mistakes"

This is what it all boils down to right? Kids make mistakes. But how was GZ supposed to know he was only 17? I'll say it again. He was 6'2. Besides, last time I checked, the mantra for stranger danger was to run home or to the nearest safe place. Not accost, break nose and climb into a full mount position. We don't teach our kids that. Well, maybe you do...

This is the thing. If GZ didn't have a gun and it played out in TM favor, there would be one of two results. GZ would have been knocked out w/possible concussion, came to, call the police and TM would be up on assault charges. Or two, GZ died and TM would be up on murder charges. Either way, TM would be arrested. So, if both possible outcomes results in a criminal charge, then it's logical to say that Trayvon committed a felony offence. REGARDLESS of a hypothetical outcome or the actual outcome. And seeing he was so close to his 18th birthday, you can be guaranteed he would have been charged as an adult.

The ending in this tragedy does not preclude TM's actions.