If god created man, then who the shiznit created God? Chuck Norris?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False premise. There are other possibilities, such as revelation from the first cause entity.

Define revelation of the first cause. Was an entity involved?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False premise. There are other possibilities, such as revelation from the first cause entity.

Define revelation of the first cause. Was an entity involved?

Did you mean to say "divine" revelation? That's what I said. There is another possibility other than memory, that would be direct divine revelation of Himself to us.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

oh so we created ourself? Thats really a genuinely smart idea!! It means we existed and non-existed at the same time, how intriguing and yet IMPOSSIBLE

I didn't say that. I would compare it to the water cycle.

water cycle does not "create" water. Law of conservation of mass/energy does not create mass/energy.
I think the discussion was, what's the 1st cause that caused this Universe and ultimately us. I say that the 1st cause should be uncaused or we would just keep going back infinitely..
You said, what if the chain leads back to us!! That was just a spark of imagination from you but means nothing.

Nothing can have an infinite past/history. Everything that exists in the material Universe has a beginning and so a finite past/history.
So whatever caused this Universe to begin must lie outside it in all ways, material and laws.

reply to post by logical7

water cycle does not "create" water. Law of conservation of mass/energy does not create mass/energy.

I never said anything about creation. Just like water, energy manifests itself in different ways according to different conditions on different levels of hierarchy. Just like the water cycle, energy follows a pattern wherein various combinations of stimuli and environmental factors result in various products. Rain, snow, condensation, evaporation, run off, etc. Where did the energy come from? I don't know. No one does.

I think the discussion was, what's the 1st cause that caused this Universe and ultimately us. I say that the 1st cause should be uncaused or we would just keep going back infinitely..

If there was an absolute answer to this question, the question wouldn't be asked because the answer would already be known. As such, I don't think we have a good answer to this yet. Give it time. Modern science has only existed for about 200 years, and it's still feeling the effects of the last 2,000 years of religious influence.

You said, what if the chain leads back to us!! That was just a spark of imagination from you but means nothing.

Cool your jets, dude. No need to get hostile and antagonistic. Just ask me to clarify and I will.

Water from the ocean evaporates. It gets carried up to the sky. It gathers into clouds. These clouds drift along, playing a game of "give and take" with other clouds via various forms of weather phenomenon along the way. Eventually, circumstances result in a build-up of clouds which become ripe for releasing the gathered condensation. A rain storm develops, in which all of the water falls back to the earth. Then the water runs off and gathers in various bodies of water that lie in that region. From there, it's a medley of different paths the water could take - reservoirs, sewers, rivers, plant life, etc. Some of it will be used as a catalyst to provide fuel for other forms of life. Some of it will again evaporate and continue its journey. And some of it....some of it will return to the ocean from whence it came. And the cycle begins anew. This is what I meant. If you believe in soul energy, then your soul energy will climb a steadily progressing ladder that takes you on a winding and tedious journey through various translations of the reality with which you are already familiar, until you lose all substance and become one of the many drops in the ocean, your spirit diffusing and mingling indistinguishably with the vast pool of energy that forms the basis for all of existence. And when it's time...

You begin again.

Nothing can have an infinite past/history. Everything that exists in the material Universe has a beginning and so a finite past/history.

How do you know? Do you have the entire history and future of the physical universe on Kindle or something?

So whatever caused this Universe to begin must lie outside it in all ways, material and laws.

Or just in another translation. A program may be written for writing short stories or compiling rough sketches or designing rudimentary mechanical devices, and if you look at the code behind the program, you will find the instructions and parameters for the development of those products written in an entirely different language...a language that operates on a fundamental level which requires translation in order to appear meaningful. Any other device which understands such a language would grasp the significance of the chaotic sprawl of characters, but a man who is born American and speaks English would listen to a Chinese rocket scientist and walk away just as clueless as when he walked in. And if you were able to grasp the syntax of the language by which those instructions were written, if you could grasp the tools used to compile that language, you could rewrite the language and complete change the function of the program. Instead of a rudimentary mechanical device, you could compose a symphony...or translate an image by increasing all of its binary numerical values by 1, thereby initiating a new art movement.

My point being, it doesn't have to lie outside. It can lie under or within.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
False premise. There are other possibilities, such as revelation from the first cause entity.

So God only has to talk to himself to have the revelation "I DO EXIST I MUST; AM I NOT SPEAKING TO MYSELF GODDARNIT!". I dont think so; as he isnt even gross matter living in the realm of physicality 3D ON EARTH, just a gaseous form dimensions above our existance.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False premise. There are other possibilities, such as revelation from the first cause entity.

Define revelation of the first cause. Was an entity involved?

Did you mean to say "divine" revelation? That's what I said. There is another possibility other than memory, that would be direct divine revelation of Himself to us.

Devine revelation? You have pretzeled this. There is no other possibility other than memory unless you are in a constant state of communication with Himself and if so, are either living in a buddist monestary or in a cave somewhere on top of a mountain, (as you would not be a functioning productive human; better yet an ORACLE).

I believe he told Moses "I AM WHAT I AM".

Translation : "I EXIST AND THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW".

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

I believe he told Moses "I AM WHAT I AM".
Translation : "I EXIST AND THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW".

That was Popeye the Sailermans mantra as well; and very fitting. IYAMWHATIYAM, just need spinach for my guns. Translation: a writer for the script and cell illustrator for my cartoony essence to become live action and be able to exist for potencially millions of celluloid film fans.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False premise. There are other possibilities, such as revelation from the first cause entity.

Define revelation of the first cause. Was an entity involved?

Did you mean to say "divine" revelation? That's what I said. There is another possibility other than memory, that would be direct divine revelation of Himself to us.

Devine revelation? You have pretzeled this. There is no other possibility other than memory unless you are in a constant state of communication with Himself and if so, are either living in a buddist monestary or in a cave somewhere on top of a mountain, (as you would not be a functioning productive human; better yet an ORACLE).

edit on 18-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Again, false premise. The biblical account is such that God in various times and to various people revealed Himself to them.

Originally posted by br0ker
No really.. Who created god?

You need a brain to have intelligence, you need a physical entity to have a brain. You need matter to eventually become something physical. So no such thing could have created man or the universe. Did he create time as well, i.e. all matter and energy to move it? Doesn't he use time? Why create mankind, was he bored? If so, is god selfish?

I believe mankind created God. It's easier to explain things we don't understand with fiction. Faith also gives us safety. It's easier to find god when you are a criminal.. Feels good with a fictional forgiveness ehh? Easier to believe that there is something after life than nothing.

Well, seems to me that religious people in general are less intelligent then the average non-religious, and way ,ore scared. Face the fact that there may be nothing after life, your consious being is gone when your brain stops. You don't need religion for comfort. You need morals and family or friends. You need a strong will and psyche. You will die if you chase after death, your day is not decided for you...nor is your fate. Fate you create yourself. Weak people made "God" for their own consolation..

With that said, if you are sitting here right now then the chances are 100percent that you will become something again. Something happened because you are here. Given infinite time you will be again. As long as time never stops... And time is defined as movement of matter. Can matter really disappear, no, ony altered, like energy.

So who created god? Chuck Norris?

edit on 16-7-2013 by br0ker because: Spelling

edit on 16-7-2013 by br0ker because: More spelling

God was not created. God was not 'made'. God 'made/created' man.
And when I say 'made' I mean God 'made believe' that there was man. God 'made believe' all things.
There is only God and he pretends there is such a thing as man.
There is only God and he is dreaming.
Life is but a dream.

The crazy thing is; is that you think (imagine) you are man.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

GOD IS A COMEDIAN WHOSE AUDIENCE NEGLECTS TO LAUGH

God is the audience. God is what is seeing the light show.
Look now to see if you can see what is seeing the movie.


The audience will laugh when he realizes who he is - until then he will seek applause.

reply to post by br0ker

If god created man, then who the shiznit created God? Chuck Norris?,

Who created you?

Your mother?

And who created your mother?

Her mother?

If so when you will be gone God may let you see them,or maybe he will let you see only just Chuck Norris.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I believe he told Moses "I AM WHAT I AM".

Translation : "I EXIST AND THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW".

What if we're not willing to settle for that? Is that still all the answer we get?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Where did the energy come from? I don't know. No one does.

thats what i was saying. Was it styming discussion?

If there was an absolute answer to this
question, the question wouldn't be
asked because the answer would
already be known.

before anyone tries to answer this question, wouldn't it be wise to first ask if its even possible to come up with an absolute answer and then verify it? In other words try and acknowledge the limitation that we have with our thinking/understanding.
Its like trying to figure out "Theory of everything". We can only figure it out if the theory itself allows us to be able to figure it out as we also must be operating under its laws!

This is
what I meant. If you believe in soul energy, then your soul energy will
climb a steadily progressing ladder
that takes you on a winding and
tedious journey through various
translations of the reality with which
you are already familiar, until you lose all substance and become one of the
many drops in the ocean, your spirit
diffusing and mingling
indistinguishably with the vast pool of
energy that forms the basis for all of
existence. And when it's time... You begin again.

i don't believe that soul is an energy. Like i said about the uncaused cause(God) being immaterial, the soul also is "outside" this percievable universe but can interact with it.
There is no way any matter can acquire self-consciousness by itself.

You are talking more about reincarnation, is that the topic?

I thing we were talking about how we came to exist the 1st time, not how we maybe a part of a soul cycle etc etc.

You talk about water cycle, energy cycle, soul cycle when i am asking a more basic question that how and who created water, energy, soul. We can let go water as we can figure out how water got formed from energy. You have already admited that you don't know how energy came into existence.
So the only question that remains is, is soul a type of energy or completely separate "outside" entity.

reply to post by logical7

i don't believe that soul is an energy.

Then what is it? An idea, like beauty?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

i don't believe that soul is an energy.

Then what is it? An idea, like beauty?

its an ability that makes us have self-consciousness and a free will. Its not matter or energy. Yes maybe an "idea" but an idea thats not ours.

Imagine a simple thought experiment. Try and imagine a humanoid robot in any of your favourite location. Now try and give that robot the ability to have have self-consciousness and a free will in that imagination. You can't give that idea(soul) to it.
You and me however have that soul given to us and so there's Someone Higher who has the capability to give it unlike us and so has given us the "ability" to self-consciousness.

So when we die and the matter/energy of our dead body gets recycled, we would still remain in the memory of that Higher being and then you can also put it that our soul will keep on existing but "outside" this universe.

reply to post by logical7

its an ability that makes us have self-consciousness and a free will. Its not matter or energy. Yes maybe an "idea" but an idea thats not ours.

So my soul is someone else's abstraction? I'm just a fictional character in someone else's imagination, stuffed into a meat sack and forced to live by someone else's whim?

Imagine a simple thought experiment. Try and imagine a humanoid robot in any of your favourite location. Now try and give that robot the ability to have have self-consciousness and a free will in that imagination. You can't give that idea(soul) to it.

Well, sure. I can't imagine it doing anything without first having the idea myself, even if I'm not conscious of it.

You and me however have that soul given to us and so there's Someone Higher who has the capability to give it unlike us and so has given us the "ability" to self-consciousness.

But you just said the soul is an abstraction. How do you just "give" an abstraction? It has to be of a distinct nature in order to just be handed off. It can't rely on the consciousness that imagined it.

So when we die and the matter/energy of our dead body gets recycled, we would still remain in the memory of that Higher being and then you can also put it that our soul will keep on existing but "outside" this universe.

I don't understand...

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

I believe he told Moses "I AM WHAT I AM".
Translation : "I EXIST AND THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW".

That was Popeye the Sailermans mantra as well; and very fitting. IYAMWHATIYAM, just need spinach for my guns. Translation: a writer for the script and cell illustrator for my cartoony essence to become live action and be able to exist for potencially millions of celluloid film fans.

edit on 18-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Except Popeye hasn't been around since before the Universe came to be. Methinks Popeye was committing plagiarism.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I believe he told Moses "I AM WHAT I AM".

Translation : "I EXIST AND THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW".

What if we're not willing to settle for that? Is that still all the answer we get?

What more can we tell you? We told you who he is, if you won't believe anything we say, what more can I tell you that you won't accept anyways? You don't want to believe and because of that, you cannot see him. You are the thing that is holding you back. You have heard the Gospel, and the things that you have heard will be the things that shall judge you. We won't judge you, but the words that we speak, it is they that will judge you because having heard, you refuse to listen.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

But you just said the soul is an abstraction. How do you just "give" an abstraction? It has to be of a distinct nature in order to just be handed off. It can't rely on the consciousness that imagined it.

you are make us as a standard and anything beyond our capability as impossible, why?

Yes we have a distinct nature than the Higher Imaginer who is imagining us(every atom and even smaller) and thats the reason we have free will but ofcourse limited by the laws of nature.
You can call it a test/experiment to see which of us manage to harmonise their will to Truth and which keep rebeling and harming others and themselves.
You obviously freak out when it comes to submitting you will to God but why? Maybe because you consider that "ability" as yours but did you make it? NO. It was given to you and you don't want to acknowledge this Truth. You are resisting to make the very Truthful and reasonable acknowledgment that you would be better of if you "choose" to give up your will to the Creator and accept some laws to govern you in order to be in harmony with nature rather you want to figure it out all by yourself when its impossible to do without Absolute Knowledge. You are in love with you tiny independence not realising that the real freedom is when the Absolute Boss is on your side!