Revelation : The whores "fornication" is usury.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


i tend to agree with you that money plays a huge role in it, but there's one part you need to know as regards this particular issue in the verse: the whore is committing adultery against god, not against your wallet. this is a clear distinction. you must accept this before you can move forward with the rest of your interpretation. since historically, jehovah didn't seem to have a problem with rich people per sey (it wasn't until jesus that this is finally discussed as a problem), as long as they were beholden to him, followed the laws, tithed, or what have you, he was fine with them being rich. i guess the commandment that said to love your neighbor as yourself, was taken just a bit too literally (meaning if they were wealthy, they only loved their rich neighbors but not the less fortunate members of their society) and they dropped the ball, which is not hard to believe.

however, usury is stealing, so i would assume this is part of the overall impetus of the whore -- that she is rich, very rich from taking other people's riches by force. there's is more than one form of financial system that does this. one is called usury in capitalism and the other is called confiscation in communism. in either case, they are stealing other people's hard earned monies. any way you slice it, taking other people's stuff, is not good. it's theft. there's no such thing as legitimate theft -- even government ordained theft is still theft. religious theft, is still theft.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It is as valid to take the "trading" metaphorically as it is to take the "fornication" metaphorically.
If you insist on being literal, you are stuck with literal fornication.

Call me unimaginative (or an @&!hole if you're catholic), but I've interpreted this passage to refer to the catholic church for some time now. Fortunes and kings have been made via the power of the papacy, and idolatry is in it's place. I know you already stated it's not up for debate, but it's a free internet, so there you go.

reply to post by DISRAELI

It is as valid to take the "trading" metaphorically as it is to take the "fornication" metaphorically.
If you insist on being literal, you are stuck with literal fornication.

Not when one uses discernment. By that logic, anything and everything can be taken as a metaphor.

We know that the whore is symbolic, so there's no question of literal fornication. Also we know that there is something taking place between the whore and the nations and the kings that is being described as fornication. My threads purpose was to decipher what "fornication" was. I picked up the clues in the repeated mention of merchants and trade, and figured it has something to do with finance, as opposed to false religion or anything else.

"Fornication" is used metaphorically to describe the larger idea (usury based financial system) that is taking place between the whore, kings, nations and merchants. Its akin to statement such as "al-qaeda is in bed with the CIA". It simply means they are in league with each other, not that they are literally sleeping in a bed together.

Towards the end of chapter 18, the merchants, who are literal... are revealed to be the whores own, and so it is made clear that trade has everything to do with the fornication. It was this financial system that kings were part of and nations were deceived with. Once it was destroyed, the merchants who were part of the whore could only wept and mourned over it.

reply to post by undo

the whore is committing adultery against god, not against your wallet. this is a clear distinction

The whore is committing adultery with the kings, i.e governments who are part of her corrupt usury based system which the bible describes as an abomination.

you must accept this before you can move forward with the rest of your interpretation. since historically, jehovah didn't seem to have a problem with rich people per sey

Its not about having a problem with rich folks. Its a problem with people who get rich dishonestly. The whores financial system is based on usury... and it involved kings and entire nations, who are described as being deceived. The whores merchants, got rich off it, which explains why they mourn so much for the whore.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


pretty good analysis. can you describe what is a dishonest way to get money,
other than usury?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You have not explained how all this leads into the persecution of the church.
The book of Revelation is about thepersecution of the church. That is the central topic, the whole reason why the book is written.
The church is not going to be persecuted, and martrys are not going to be put to death, except for reasons relating to a clash between religions.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


One of your largest clues in this is to identify the money system's mark. Carbon has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. Where do we see Carbon as a mark? Petrol dollar. No nation can purchase oil without the mark. It is also mankind's number of life. It is also the mark of our fruit of knowledge (Technology). It is also the agreement recently made with Germany with Obama's last visit to Germany. Carbon tax is coming and it will mark our final push to global governance. I did two threads on this.

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

The true mark is selfishness:

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

The key to this verse is knowing how many elements are listed. 18. That's 6+6+6 and he says, "Mark This!"

Lastly, the biggest clue is this: The moneychangers tables are turned to debt and the peacemakers have no rest. Jesus enters the temple.

reply to post by DISRAELI

You have not explained how all this leads into the persecution of the church.
The book of Revelation is about thepersecution of the church. That is the central topic, the whole reason why the book is written.

In the sequence of books, the destruction of the whore leads to the final destruction of the beast, not the persecution of the church or anybody else. That happens before, when the beast appears.

The book of revelation was written during a time when the church was being persecuted, yes. But it also contains parts that have nothing to do with persecution of the church. As for the "central" topic, Revelation has to do with the cleansing of a corrupt world and the destruction of evil. It is not exactly confined only to the Christian church.

The whore on one hand, is guilty of having the blood of holy men, and on the other... is also the nerve center of a corrupt financial system that has deceived the nations. Kind of like how a government can be guilty of BOTH killing innocents abroad AND oppressing its own citizens. They are 2 unrelated actions, but is carried out by the same entity.

The specific bits about the whore that was outlined in the OP deals with one of the aspects of the whore, her abominable financial systems and has nothing to do with the church or any religious group.

The "persecution" is carried out by the beast that the whore rides on (i.e the first beast), which is given power to wage war against God’s "holy people" and to conquer them. Now, that in itself makes for a separate discussion, as it raises the question... who exactly are the "holy people"?

As for persecution of Christians, I doubt it would happen on the on the scale Christians like to imagine, and I doubt Christians would be exclusively singled out. Reason being, Christianity has pretty much already collapsed in the West and is already under the grip of degenerate secularism. Christians have already been conquered and so would not pose any real threat to the beast which is allied to the US and the West. Again, its a separate discussion.

I have covered that subject in this thread.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
In the sequence of books, the destruction of the whore leads to the final destruction of the beast, not the persecution of the church or anybody else. That happens before, when the beast appears.

Yes, persecution comes with the appearance of the Beast, but the Beast and the Harlot are working together in this persecution.
That is the significance of the fact that the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast.
That is the significance of "drunk with the blood of the saints".
What the Harlot is doing in promotion of "adultery and fornication" is attracting people in a belief-system which is part of the ground on which the Beast is persecuting the church.
The Harlot in ch17 and the Beast in ch13 are two aspects of the same persecution.
If you cannot see that, you are missing the whole point of the book.

The book of revelation was written during a time when the church was being persecuted, yes. But it also contains parts that have nothing to do with persecution of the church. As for the "central" topic, Revelation has to do with the cleansing of a corrupt world and the destruction of evil. It is not exactly confined only to the Christian church.

The WHOLE of the book of Revelation is about the persecution of the church, one way or another.
ch12 explains why it is happening.
ch13 and ch17 introduce us to the main agents.
Other parts of the book are about God's response to the persecutions.
This is a Christian book, written for Christian purposes, which focuses around the person of Jesus and the atonement for sin acccomplished by his death on the cross.
It divides the world into those who are "washed by the blood of the Lamb" and those who are no.
If you are not a Christian, the book has no relevance for you.

and has nothing to do with the church or any religious group.

The "persecution" is carried out by the beast that the whore rides on (i.e the first beast), which is given power to wage war against God’s "holy people" and to conquer them. Now, that in itself makes for a separate discussion, as it raises the question... who exactly are the "holy people"?

The Harlot is identified as persecutor of the church by the fact that she is "drunk with the blood of the saints".
"The saints" is a New Testament term for the church, which answers the question.
In a Christian book, written for Christians, the"holy people" is necessarily going to be a reference to Christians.
It is both absurd and presumptuous to try to read non-Christian meaning into a Christian book

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Fornication, when taken into context with the OT prophets, is speaking about chasing after idols and other gods, or "playing the harlot" with false gods. Commiting adultery against God. There are two types of idolatry, old school idolatry worships objects, modern idolatry comes in the form of self worship, or self gratification that can be found in humanism and Neo-Platonism (a.k.a. Atheism). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is an amalgamation of many OT prophets end time prophesies.

When it comes to the jews, the Temple was destroyed because it became their idol. They were more concerned about the Temple than God. Case in point, look at them today, obsessed over reconstructing the Temple when God already gave them another way, they want to go backwards and not forewards, something to which God warned them about through the prophet Yiremiyah (Jeremiah).

Now God does get onto the jews in the OT about usury a time or two, but that was small potatoes compared to other things they were doing. Usury is just a symptom of a greater disease that is adultery against God. It's the adultery against God that breeds every wrong doing.

Originally posted by undo
sorcery is pharmacopeia, the practice or use of medicine, for various purposes. i'm trying to fit the usury thing with pharmacopeia.

No, medicine isn't evil. It was a reference to the drug use involved in ancient pagan religious practice. False religion is called fornication in prophetic language.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by undo
sorcery is pharmacopeia, the practice or use of medicine, for various purposes. i'm trying to fit the usury thing with pharmacopeia.

No, medicine isn't evil. It was a reference to the drug use involved in ancient pagan religious practice. False religion is called fornication in prophetic language.

i didn't say medicine is evil lol i said the word sorceries is derived from pharmacopeia. sorcery was the practice of medicine. in the setting of revelation, it's meant to be a sign of evil medicine, et.al evil drugs. i was checking to see if skorpion had any thoughts on how evil medicine could be combined with usury.

the prophecies about the beast, antichrist, false prophet and whore, are multilayered.

one layer refers to the beast economic system.
the next layer refers to the beast religious system
and the final layer refers to the beast political system and governmental authority.

most eschatololgists believe the economic system and political system, is european in nature, the 10 kings referring to 10 european countries in the european common market.

but i want to lay one on ya that i think will really raise your eyebrows:

the beast that was, is not and yet is, is the key to this entire thing.
so let's find out what the beast system is. to do that, we have to follow daniel's prophecy of the statues.

nebuchadnezzar dreamt and daniel interpreted it. the dream was about the future history of every empire that would ever exist on the planet.

the first empire was the golden head of nebuchadnezzar's babylon
the second empire was the silver chest and arms of the media persian empire
the third empire was the brass belly of grecian empire
the fourth empire was the iron legs of the "pagan" roman empire
and the final empire would be the iron (pagan roman empire) mixed with miry clay. these two things would not cling to each other. this is without a doubt, the holy roman empire.

now fast forward to the beast that was, is not, and yet is, in revelation. it's not a new empire. it's the final empire mentioned in daniel, on repeat. over and over again. everybody assumes they lost control in the enlightenment, nope. they still own the planet.

i would like you to observe, this very interesting video. particularly keep an eye on the pope.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

So you're incapable of posting anything useful on your own? You know what, I think it's about time this "God" bloke made his own account and started posting on these forums. It makes a lot more sense than getting his watered-down lackeys to post their own interpretations of what he may or may not have said 2,000 years ago. I'm serious.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I think this criticism of usury and "powers behind the scenes" is partly a way of getting at the Jews and the state of Israel.

This has more to do with understanding prophecy than with "getting at the Jews and Israel".

Either way, now that you brought it up, is it a coincidence that
- the book of Revelation speaks of of "those who say they are Jews but are not"?
- that Jerusalem has all the traits of the whore of revelations?
- that Jews, even as a tiny minority they are... are at the forefront of banking and financial institutions?

Make what you want of it, these are facts from the Bible.

Those are my thoughts as well regarding the subject of the OP.

The "true jews" are not the whore though... well... not in my opinion. It's the ones who say they are but are not.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
c) Gets the nations drunk with the 'wine of her fornication'.

The Old Testament says that rape is okay as long as you marry the girl afterwards.

Fornication is a misdemeanor.

Rape and statutory rape are both felonies.

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by undo
sorcery is pharmacopeia, the practice or use of medicine, for various purposes. i'm trying to fit the usury thing with pharmacopeia.

No, medicine isn't evil. It was a reference to the drug use involved in ancient pagan religious practice. False religion is called fornication in prophetic language.

i didn't say medicine is evil lol i said the word sorceries is derived from pharmacopeia. sorcery was the practice of medicine. in the setting of revelation, it's meant to be a sign of evil medicine, et.al evil drugs. i was checking to see if skorpion had any thoughts on how evil medicine could be combined with usury.

Well the context was the illicit drug use in the pagan religious practices.

I agree with your points. One thing is missing though, who is the whore? Do you know who this "woman" is and what her identity is?

I'll give you a hint: oil, paper (money), gold, crops, raw materials, metals. Where do these things come from and who (or what) freely gives them away without a struggle in order to be sold? It should be quite obvious I think. You see her everyday.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I think I agree with you
(That will give you something to worry about)