What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

reply to post by allenidaho


There's plenty of proof through the links and refs I posted.

The most reputable scholars are embarrassed by the disinformation claims made by those purported erudite put forward by the NWO elite with a destructive-to-truth and to accurate history with a devilish personal and globalist agenda.
.

I'm not saying anything per se about Paul, yet. Certainly God wrote through Paul most of the NT.

I'm noting that the claims for late scribing of the New Testament docs are fantasies at great odds to the solid evidence of history.

ALL the off-the-wall claims of the last 10-30 years come from documents ~200 and more years after the events--well after the historic documents by the eye-witnesses.

IIRC, There are NO ancient writings as well affirmed and confirmed by a multiplicity of early copies as the New Testament documents--by a wide margin.

Take the purported Gospel of Thomas

via Lee Strobel's THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS . . .

Interview with Craig A Evans, PhD . . . a decade as Editer-in-chief of the [I]Bulletin for Biblical Research[/I]. . . begins on p 29

...a prolific writer known for his scholarly precision as well as his ability to pierce the fog of academia with uncharacteristic clarity.

my paraphrase from p 32

Lee: What's the criteria for juding an ancient document as trustworthy?

Evans:

"The first question is: When was it written? . . . If the document is about Alexander the Great, was it written during the lifetime of those who knew him? Same with the New Testament. There's a huge difference between a gospel written in AD 60--about thirty years after Jesus' ministry--and another document written in AD 150."

"If the Gospel of Mark was written in the 60s--some thirty to thirty-five years after Jesus' ministry--then it was written within the lifetime of numerous people who would have known Jesus and heard him teach. This would have a corrective effect. But if a document is written sixty, eighty, or a hundred years later, then that claim is lost. Although it is not impossible that a document written much, much later could contain authentic material, it's a lot more problematic."

p33
"Then there are motivational questions. Did the writer have an axe to grind? Does he bend over backward to deny something or affirm something that's dubious? These things are often transparent and we can detect them."

. . .

"It's much more science. It isn't just guesswork and opinion. It's logical, ... When you look at Matthew, Mark and Luke--also John, but especially the Synoptics--and use the same criteria that you would use in assessing secular historians like Suetonius, Tacitus, or Thucydides, the New Testament Gospels perform very favorably. Actually, these other historians were much further removed from many of the events that they wrote about."

My paraphrase of Evans

Re Thomas . . . it's late--over half of the New Testament is paralleled, quoted or alluded to--which demonstrates it had to be later than those writings.

The purported Thomas doesn't refer to the earlier Mark but to the later better grammar of Matthew and Luke. That also demonstrates that the purported Thomas [no reputable scholar really believes it was written by Thomas] was written significantly later.

Also, Thomas has obvious influences from the [I]Diatessaron[/I]. That proves it was later than the [I]Diatessaron in 175.

p38

"Everything points to Thomas being written at the end of the second century, no earlier than 175 and probably closer to 200."

p42
"Everything distinctive in Thomas turns out to be late second-century Syrian tradition."

Re the "SECRET GOSPEL OF MARK"

p48

"Morton Smith was a professor of Judeo-Christian origins at Columbia University for years. At a meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature in 1960, he announced that two years earlier he had made a historic discovery at the Mar Saba Monastery in the Judean wilderness. . . .

The document was never examined by experts because "It's gone. [I]Vanished[/I]."

He did photograph it. After he died, the photos were studied and analyzed by a well-regarded patent attorney and amateur biblical scholar who well investigated the case, including handwriting experts. He wrote therefrom:

[I]The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark[/I]

The evidence very starkly indicates a hoax and the weight of the evidence indicates that Smith, up for tenure, perpetrated the hoax.

= = = =

That's the ilk of the absurdities in or about all the more or less absurd challenges to the historical record.

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Logarock


Yea its all in there. The idea that Jesus and God Almighty are the same person is not supported by scripture. And yes there are those that are confused and perpetuate the confusion.....why that is may be another issue.....however scripture is clear that Jesus and the Almighty are not the same person but are father and son of the same nature.

As far as being one they are one in nature as far as a father and son go. Scripture is clear here as well.....why the confusion? Dumb azzes that don't know how to read and spew confusion because they cant wrap their brain around what they make hard for themselves anyway.

Now as far as Jesus having authority over God.....scripture is clear here.....God Almighty granted Jesus this position and that Jesus will give it back in the future. That's how much trust they have between themselves. It is part of Jesus showing that flesh can obtain without corruption. This grace is then extended to man in kind and reality through Jesus. This was part of the salvation of man process. Mans standing was very high before the fall, higher than the arch angles. When God took a form it was the from of man made in His image. Man was restored this way however the full measure of it will not be shown until the future but for now we have Jesus in His glorified human form to mediate for man.

Wow. It's scary how some people will go so deep to justify blatant contradictions and plain rubbish to suit their opinions.

So God made the universe and man, and all that jazz. Much later he manifests a "son" in the flesh through immaculate conception. Then he just tells Jesus to rule the universe, while what? God goes on vacation? Are you saying that God doesn't have supreme authority over man right now? I'm really not following you here.

So Jesus literally inherited authority over the entire universe and beyond from God? What the hell is God doing at this time? Is he just like floating around making other universes to rule and making other Jesus's to rule them and then expanding his inter-dimensional army in a bet he made with the Devil? Oh wait, I forgot he made the Devil too. Because before Lucifer's fall, evil was just random, or it didn't exist, or it was ruled by some, other, force. God himself maybe? Hmmmmm Idk, the idea of dualistic properties existing in one being has never been thought of before (Yin-Yang, Yo-Ga, etc...) God has always been both and will always be both, and will never, "pass down" his authority to a man in the flesh. That's just complete rubbish. In fact, the idea of God being this entity that feels the need to even satisfy humans in their own form is ridiculous. Grow up dude, the concept of "God" should include everything that exists in the universe, not a separate entity, but the pervading consciousness within everything.

Dude do you thinks its rubbish because you think I made this up or because you don't like the idea?

reply to post by jmdewey60


BOTTOMLINE= "ALL" ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!! THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE FOR ALL ETERNITY. When JESUS returns to set up his kingdom on earth,HE will rule from JERUSALEM.

reply to post by BO XIAN


YES!! EARLY MAN HAD MANY BOOKS BESIDES THE GOD INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED) BOOKS OF SCRIPTURE. Many other books were found with the over 2000 year old dead sea scrolls that were not scripture just as we have today!

Originally posted by GISMYS
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

BOTTOMLINE= "ALL" ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!! THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE FOR ALL ETERNITY. When JESUS returns to set up his kingdom on earth,HE will rule from JERUSALEM.

If all Israel shall be saved, then all of the world too. There's a soul inhabiting every single human body on this earth...........God looks at the heart, does not distinguish, jew, nonjew, etc

This is the one thing Christians could never answer......a bunch of people born into a biased world, programmed with bias from the very start, tricked, brainwashed, and only those who choose Christ will be saved but everyone else goes to eternal hell.....well except the jews.....they're cool tooand can be part of the club.

Hypothetical: If you were God and saw that if you made creation, that you would lose the majority of your children to eternal hell fire suffering because they got tricked by your very own creation (world & free will) because they did not choose Christ.........you would still choose to create all of this????

???? Knowing that if you don't create, well at least its you by yourself but no one will go to eternal hell fire????

I know if it was me, i wouldn't make this place and all you guys........

reply to post by GISMYS


Romans 9 verse 6 All in Israel is not Israel . God said he reserved to himself 7,000 who have not bent their knee to baal .

reply to post by dominicus


Where did you get that the Jews are not going to hell ? There are many of them that worshipped the Golden calf and the idol of money and gold today . There are the Satan worshiping Zionist/ Globalist Jews who are not following God .

reply to post by SimonPeter
Wasn't he referring to those, who were not decedents of Israel but were made Israelites under the law? Under the foreign adoption laws?

reply to post by Devino

Three of the four gospels claim Jesus said, "I am the son of man, the son of David." When asked if he was the Messiah he says, "What do the people say that I am? That is what I am."

...So the question becomes, what is Jesus to you?

...The problem arises, however, when other people attempt to tell us what they believe Jesus is/was.

This made me think deeply, and view some of Jesus's words in a way I never had before. Thank you.

reply to post by Logarock


If you are talking about Paul saying all in Israel is not Israel . Israel had other people in it as well as people who claimed to be Jewish but did not keep the law at Paul's time . But,Paul was talking about todays time . Israel is a mixing pot of people who have some Jewish ancestry and some who have converted . Now Jesus poured out his guts literally and some poor soul converts from his Gospel teachings and offer of salvation to Judaism negating what he did . What do you think . Then there are the Secularist Jews . The Atheist Jews and those people who aren't Jewish . Not all in Israel is of Jacob who started the 12 tribes . There are Edomites who probably outnumbered the Jews who never left Israel and who cheered on the Roman army vanquishing the Jews . They are the seed of Esau who God hated . So not all in Israel is Israel or the descendants of Jacob.

reply to post by SimonPeter
I understand what you are saying. However I thought Paul was going on about gentile adoption under the law to show that gentiles were always "grafted" into Israel be it spiritual or under the law. To show that the gospel going to the gentiles was not without precedent i.e. gentiles adopted into the nation under the law and obtaining citizenship and all the promises and conditions of 'blood' Israelites. There is a good bit of law covering the "citizenship" with full standing of non-Israelites being made so by law. Thus not all of Israel are "Israelites".

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
I agree that to repent is to turn from sin and we should still follow the commandments but how do you come to the conclusion that Christ death was for anything else but the redemption of mankind? What about gods grace? Seems to me if Jesus did not die for our sins then that puts it all on us to redeem ourselves

If so, then as purely subjective observers, un-baptised in the living water of the absolute objective reality and truth of life that is God - then we're screwed, without a gracefully reflected divine intervention on our behalf, to fill in all the gaps in our own breakdown of integrity with Christ's own, and let's face it folks, there is no amount of Christ capable of ruining a personality!

Imho, and experience, the resolution to the problem and apparent paradox of karmic debt relative to the domain of infinite possibility that is the "holy of holies" where God lives, is the most credible and incredible thing imaginable, in the form of a loving reason that we did not expect or anticipate for the life of us in our prior ignorance and that's FUNNY!

It's a conspiracy from the origin of creation to render a work of high art, and a great joke told at the expense of all human folly and ignorance.

That Jesus, he's an absolute RIOT! Hilarious, unfathomable, yet comprehensible, as a multi-faceted diamond of God's love, and mystery..., rendered in such a way that it's never going away until it is understood and actually appropriated or fully "grokked" or until the joke is gotten in the fullness of time and history, where we no longer take ourselves or our "life" as we typically live it, all that seriously, while taking God ever more seriously, in increasing trust and communion (in Spirit and in Truth).

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba

reply to post by akushla99

'Truth' is not always borne out of your own imagination (you may want think about the implications of this statement)...and this is absolutely true...

Of course... And perception is the equivalent of a radio. I'm sure you'll get a kick out of this:





And I, like a firework, explode
Roman candle lightning lights up the sky

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

The simple fact is that Jesus IS God. We aren't worshiping a person instead of God, but God Incarnate, come to die for us, in payment for our sins. The deception is people not understanding that simple truth. It's common, so understandable how you could ask the question.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


So what do you call a man or woman who sacrifices himself/ herself, to save another life - besides the obvious?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

But just to be clear, I don't think that Jesus "twinned" at the cross only to exit the tomb into a life of debauchery. It just wasn't in his character.

If he "twinned", as you so eloquently put it, then there's obviously another side to him that the Bible never told you about. And that kinda removes you as a reliable authority of Jesus' character, don't you think? I mean, if you ever were one to begin with.

If you knew Jesus you would know how funny that is as perhaps the greatest joke ever told by man to God - twinned!

He laughs through me, it's absurd.

What, did Jesus not deserve to be truly happy and to live out a full and complete human life? Talk about COURAGE though, in the courage, to be happy.

Now that's a challenge if I ever saw one, and I'm not talking here about petty self-gratification, but the deepest richest experiences that life has to offer when done from the right POV and all the right reasons.

That's real leadership - "pick up your cross and follow me" to "lay your cross down now and join me in the celebration and the new creation, which is YOU!"

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
The simple fact is that Jesus IS God. We aren't worshiping a person instead of God, but God Incarnate, come to die for us, in payment for our sins.

Paying who Satan or Himself? (Which wouldn't make sense).

Sin just means not doing whatever "God" tells you to do.

It is pretty psychotic to sacrifice yourself, to yourself because you didn't like how someone else was living their lives.

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

So what do you call a man or woman who sacrifices himself/ herself, to save another life - besides the obvious?

Someone that loves someone else enough to give their life. There is no greater love than that. Selfless, caring, loving, acting as God would have us act.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
The simple fact is that Jesus IS God. We aren't worshiping a person instead of God, but God Incarnate, come to die for us, in payment for our sins.

Paying who Satan or Himself? (Which wouldn't make sense).

Sin just means not doing whatever "God" tells you to do.

It is pretty psychotic to sacrifice yourself, to yourself because you didn't like how someone else was living their lives.

edit on 12-7-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

There is a penalty when we do wrong, both in the eyes of Man AND the eyes of God. For God, that penalty is death. A truly just God cannot simply pretend that sin didn't happen. Thus, a death is due. His death made ours (eternal, i.e. separation from God) not needed. It's like someone stepping on and being put to death in the place of another, but on a worldwide scale. That's LOVE.

Satan receives nothing from God, but eternal punishment. He isn't some equal-but-opposite sort of being. he's simply a fallen angel a created being, and still subject to God's will and rule.

reply to post by GISMYS

BOTTOMLINE= "ALL" ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!! THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE FOR ALL ETERNITY. When JESUS returns to set up his kingdom on earth,HE will rule from JERUSALEM.

The only place in the Bible that says it in those exact words, "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE", is in Colossians 3:12,
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
(2011 NIV)
which is in the New Testament and is talking about Christians.
Now, in the Old Testament, where you find this sort of talk is in Deuteronomy, which is the happenings involved in the exodus story, where you have the deity character proclaiming why it was that He led those people up out of Egypt, and into the wilderness of Sinai.

The term, "Jew", did not take the meaning that it has today until around 50 AD, where before that, it meant mainly the people who were sent into exile by the Babylonians, where the same application was used to designate those who "returned" during the Persian Empire time, to rebuild the temple and the walls of Jerusalem, basically the local self-appointed aristocracy.

The term, ""ALL" ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!!", apparently was a sort of slogan being repeated by certain Jewish converts to Christianity, and something Paul felt necessary to address in order to create peace between those, and the Christians having converted who were gentiles. Rather than to outright say that the slogan was false, he took the tactful approach of redefining it to where the true Israel is those who have chosen to accept Jesus as the son of God.

reply to post by Logarock

I thought Paul was going on about gentile adoption under the law to show that gentiles were always "grafted" into Israel be it spiritual or under the law.

If you read the pertinent verses, rather than listening to biased preachers who always misquote the passage, Christians are not grafted into Israel, they are directly grafted into the same thing that Israel was, only the 'Israel' branches are cut off to make room.