Reports: 777 crash lands at San Francisco

Originally posted by pinkbirdatabase
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

Probably the main reason for the crash:

ILS not used in SFO airport from june to august 2013 due to maintanance.
All approaches have to be manual approach routine.

Details:

San Francisco CA [SFO]: June NOTAM #5: Navigation ILS runway 28L glide path out of service effective from June 01st, 2013 at 06:00 AM PST (1306011400) - August 22nd, 2013 at 03:59 PM PST) SFO 06/004 NAV ILS RWY 28R GP U/S. 01 JUN 14:00 2013 UNTIL 22 AUG 23:59 2013. CREATED: 01 JUN 13:40 2013 SFO 06/005 NAV ILS RWY 28L GP U/S. 01 JUN 14:00 2013 UNTIL 22 AUG 23:59 2013. CREATED: 01 JUN 13:40 20

SFO is a dangerous airport right now and during these 3 months.

The way I read this, the localizer still works. The glideslope is what is out of order.

In any event, if you can't land without the glideslope, you shouldn't be flying.

YEP they still have the VASI lights...
It must be something else....That 777 was real close to the sell date of the one I tried to get stopped before it's maiden, hour long, flight out of the factory....it had the giant APU door open and flew the first flight with it open.....the crew was aware surely.....the door is huge for all to see. 15 seconds earlier and we'd of stopped it. I ran out to the fire trucks on the north end ramp at Payne Field, they radio'd immediatly to ops.....we waited 30 seconds for a reply but it rolled.
The apu door is 5 feet by 6 feet or so. dragging through the wind is a piece 4 feet by 5 feet almost. When it landed it was met in front of the paint hanger with an inspector on a rolling stairs....gave a quick look at the door.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Yeah, but even if you're not familiar with the airport, you would realize you were in trouble well before you hit 86 knots at 75 feet. You should never be that slow that close to the ground unless you're over runway and about to touch down.

... especially considering the approach speed of a 777-200ER is 139 knots.
www.boeing.com...

At 86 knots, the wheels better be on the runway.

reply to post by TheMagus


I never claimed to be a pilot, I claimed to have extensive aviation experience, which I do. I'm not "jumping on the bandwagon" I'm calling it like I see it. I have a better idea than you as to how a solar storm would affect a plane, and this isn't it.

But if you want to pretend you're smarter or better than me, because you believe someone who can't even tell the difference between Kenya and Asiana (and even puts it right up on the screen for everyone to read), then you go right ahead and keep telling me how I'm not "denying ignorance" by not buying into someone that has no idea about aviation.

Not sure if posted, but video of the crash.

reply to post by bobrules


Good god they got lucky. It looks like the tail hit the water before the jetty, and then when they bounced, I'm amazed it didn't go nose over tail.

reply to post by bobrules


I haven't seen that video in the thread. [I've been avoiding the video links of other 777 crashes, since they are not relevant to this one.]

The plane pitched upward much later in the crash than I had interpreted from the testimony.

Regarding the two girls that were ejected from the crash, it will be interesting to see the condition of their seat belts. You have to wonder if again it was a case of someone not listening to instructions.

This is a better version of the video:

I was wondering about the position of the United jet at the time of the crash.

It was at the end of taxiway when it occurred and must have turned and moved later.

I don't think there is any way no one is paying attention to the altitude there, this has to be something else.

reply to post by smurfy


Oh you'd be surprised. I've seen planes flown by experienced pilots that forget to put their landing gear down. If they were doing something else in the cockpit it would be easy to be distracted and not pay attention to the altitude.

I can think of three incidents where pilots were distracted by talking to each other, running checklists, and worrying about what they were going to do after the flight. All three aircraft (one B-1, one C-17, one T-33 all flown by highly experienced pilots with a lot of hours under their belt), touched down gear up, and slid down the runway, causing extensive damage to the aircraft.

It's actually quite easy to become distracted in a situation you're not used to. Coming in no ILS is a situation pilots aren't exactly familiar with.

Prelim Accounts In:
NTSB Prelim review: Call from crew member to increase speed made 7 secs before impact...
Throttles were idle..airspeed slowed below target...

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

True, but if commercial pilots use it all they time they can get used to it. I'm not trying to jump to the conclusion of the NTSB report before it's investigated, but based on what we know so far, my best guess is, this was a factor and will likely be stated as such in the final report. But I could be wrong.

The pilots were probably not familiar enough with the airport beforehand, and the ILS being down for repair doomed them. Add lack of communication, distractions, or something else as well. Normally its a combination of factors.

PiloTs Are Well Aware Via NOTAM And The Arrivial Atis...

Two of the injured are paralyzed according to a hospital spokesman. Two others suffered road rash type injuries suggesting being dragged. Injuries ranged from abdominal injuries, to spinal fractures, to head injuries. According to the hospital the abdominal and spinal injuries are consistent with seat belt injuries from being whipped forward and backward.

The pilots at the time of the crash were Lee Jeoing-min, and Lee Gang-guk. The two fatalities were found on either side of the plane near the front mid section. It's not clear whether they survived the impact and died after, or if they were killed on impact.

Originally posted by smurfy
I don't think there is any way no one is paying attention to the altitude there, this has to be something else.

Probably distracted and lost track of the glide slope while prepping everything else for landing. Trying to come in shallow because they can afford to over water, and found themselves low and slow and wind up kissing the water before making their way to the sea wall. I was a little surprised how short they came up, but that helps explain the location where it came to rest, relatively close to the end of the runway.

Could have been much worse.

reply to post by _Del_


They actually came in steep and fast. It appears they came in high and tried to dive it onto the glideslope, and got low without realizing where exactly they were.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by TheMagus

 

I never claimed to be a pilot, I claimed to have extensive aviation experience, which I do. I'm not "jumping on the bandwagon" I'm calling it like I see it. 1-I have a better idea than you as to how a solar storm would affect a plane, and this isn't it.

2-But if you want to pretend you're smarter or better than me, because you believe 3-someone who can't even tell the difference between Kenya and Asiana (and even puts it right up on the screen for everyone to read), then you go right ahead and keep telling me how I'm not "denying ignorance" by 4-not buying into someone that has no idea about aviation.

1-without knowing, and only ass-uming, my qualifications, you most certainly do not.
2- the fact that you consistently reject other facts brought to the table by brushing them off without regarding them, probably because they cause your pet theory some trouble,

especially in light of the FACT that neither you nor I have access to the telemetry/systems logs/etc.
[including the data NOAA has deleted or failed to record/provide]

is proof enough that The Magus does not engage in such pretense

3-if you refuse to read [especially where I've pointed out that YT transcripts require corrections ]
or watch the video...
and instead use the kenya/asiana strawman, when what's being pointed out that they
are both the SAME MODEL plane not the same airline ...
who then is lacking here, hmmmmm?

4-you again ass-ume, perhaps you'd be better off elaborating
with regards to your mysterious avionics qualifications
which enable you to make definitive statements and judgments whilst lacking the data mentioned in point 2

especially when you bring nothing else to the table, which you seem determined to monopolize.

have at it.

adieu

reply to post by TheMagus


You were the third person to post that video, so don't tell me I didn't bother watching it. He clearly tried to pass both aircraft off as Asiana. But even leaving that part out, how are these the ONLY 777s affected. They certainly weren't the only ones in the air at the time. There are probably a couple of dozen 777s flying at any given time, as they're the most popular long range aircraft flying right now.

I also know what is most likely to happen in a magnetic storm to an aircraft. And it wouldn't screw up the altimeter. It would mess with communications, and that's about it. Altimeters work on air pressure, how does a magnetic storm affect air pressure? A 777 isn't fly by wire, so there's nothing for it to mess up as far as flight controls go. That means either a mechanical problem, or pilot error. There were no reports of mechanical problems from either passengers or witnesses, so that leaves pilot error.

But please, you're so much smarter than everyone else, tell me how it is that a magnetic storm affects only two 777s that are flying 7000 miles apart, and nothing else in the skies at the time. Tell me how it affects an instrument that relies on air pressure, and how it sets off a fire alarm in a cargo hold on the other one. Please, explain to me how it's possible that it does this.

The throttles were advanced a few seconds prior to impact and the engines appear to respond normally.

The NTSB has their tweets, with investigation info, posted on the NTSB site

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
Prelim Accounts In:
NTSB Prelim review: Call from crew member to increase speed made 7 secs before impact...
Throttles were idle..airspeed slowed below target...

Piss poor cockpit resource management if those reports are true.

Language is also likely a factor.

Foreign pilots are supposed to be able to speak English to fly international routes, but I have heard of a few cases where flights from China used interpreters in the cockpit to handle communications. One was in Germany and the others were at U.S. east coast airports.

Knowing this I'm a little surprised there aren't more accidents with foreign pilots landing at US airports.

A friend from flight school is now flying a Citation on international routes for a Fortune 500 Co and fills me in on all the dirt.