The Mystery of Baptizing

reply to post by piequal3because14


And that's why I never enlisted in the military!

reply to post by yuppa

The Thief on the cross that died along side of Jesus was not baptized correct? All he did was believe Jesus and his words. Baptism is a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by yuppa

 

The Thief on the cross that died along side of Jesus was not baptized correct? All he did was believe Jesus and his words. Baptism is a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven.

If baptism only represents "a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven", why was Jesus baptized?

Originally posted by windword
Baptism is just a metaphor for reincarnation.

John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah, says the Bible. Jesus said you most be "born again", of water and spirit. Holy water is symbolic for semen baptizing the egg (unconsecrated body) to create a new resurrected body for the "born again" soul.

I tried to Google more information on this, but all I got were porn sites!

From my point of view Baptism is supposed to represent the rebirth of a person waking up having proof of a bigger reality (proof of the paranormal) than the person believed or understood. Only a soul and what is on the other side can make the connection and throwing water on an infant who do not understand anything makes no sense to me. But they are making a cross over the third eye I noticed the last time I saw a baptism. Maybe they know what they are doing but if I remember correctly correctly, Ghengis Khan himself that was a of Tengri faith wrote something to the catholic church about only the spirit say who become baptised, not man.

Originally posted by alienreality
I was baptized at age 12, for me it was publically acknowledging my belief in Christ, since that time, he has visited me and spoken to me 3 different times.. He is really real, he is really God's son, and he has been a constant companion to my heart and soul. He is for all of us on planet earth, never against us.

That is so cool. . I am so happy for you.

reply to post by schuyler

It's simply a religious ritual that has no real meaning outside the beliefs of its adherents.

BEing that I'm a Christian-Mystic Non-dualist ...let me chime in here.

Water Baptism represents ego death. The old egotistical ways are drowned under water, and a new Enlightened Ego free you emerges from the water. Also, in the NT everyone who goes through this is of an adult age capable of adult logic & Reason.

For me, Baptizm was THE NUMBER ONE reason I attribute to the beginning of my Mystical/Spiritual awakenings. It took about 2 weeks afterwards, and then the Holy Spirit indwelled me and killed off my ego, taking me back to child -like awareness and instilling in me Higher Transcendental Faculties, Divine Love, Non-judgmental acceptance of all beings, etc.

There also Baptizm rituals in Buddhism and many other "Paths."

Believe me, had I not received Spiritual Awakening shortly after water Baptizm, I too would have believed its a sham. But I concur, it's legit!!!!

Originally posted by windword

If baptism only represents "a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven", why was Jesus baptized?

It is very probable that Jesus submitted to baptism to be an example to his followers.

It also was a way of fulfilling prophecy regarding his coming. Isaiah 53:12 states "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors" (NKJV)

By allowing himself to be baptized, even if he, himself was sinless, Jesus took his place among the sinners, as baptism is the act of a contrite sinner.

Just my two cents to the conversation.

reply to post by piequal3because14

piequal3because14,
From your posts, you made it clear that tradition is the only way to salvation, just as the Pharisees did. Such traditions are heretical, as they have no biblical basis. Nowhere in the Word, is it mentioned that infants must be baptised to be saved. Nowhere is there mention of having to be baptised by water to be saved. To do so makes the sacrifice of Christ insufficant. You are not saved by baptism, you are not saved by the HRCC, you are not saved by Mary, but only through faith in Christ as Lord and belief he has risen.

Tradition of man (religion) is in opposition to the Word of God.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by yuppa

 

The Thief on the cross that died along side of Jesus was not baptized correct? All he did was believe Jesus and his words. Baptism is a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven.

If baptism only represents "a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven", why was Jesus baptized?

Ah you raise a good question. It was because Jesus came to set an example for us to follow and it was to fulfill prophecy. If baptism was to forgive us for our sins why did Jesus die on the cross?

Baptism represents proclaiming that you love and serve God, and being baptized welcomes the Holy Spirit of God to wash you and fill you with God's power

You can be "baptized" in the word of God as well. Its why the Thief was allowwed to go to heaven.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by yuppa

 

The Thief on the cross that died along side of Jesus was not baptized correct? All he did was believe Jesus and his words. Baptism is a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven.

If baptism only represents "a show of faith and of admitting you are not perfect and a sinner who needs to be forgiven", why was Jesus baptized?

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek. Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:
Washed with water and be anointed with the Holy Spirit. Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. Additionally, He would have needed to be 30 years old. With these consecrations, He began His ministry amungst the people.

reply to

You are not saved by baptism, you are not saved by the HRCC, you are not saved by Mary, but only through faith in Christ as Lord and belief he has risen.
.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread957491/pg3#pid16631051" target="_blank" class="postlink">post by Siberbat
Not to be saved but blessed with... Life,this is the purpose.

The purpose of baptism is explained in 1 Peter 3:18-22...

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

It's an oath, a promise to not be evil, a public acknowledgement to show others your commitment, your submission to God's will and acceptance of Christ as your savior. It means you've chosen to set yourself apart from the rest of humanity, a willing separation from the ways of the world (greed, apathy, etc). It's sort of like coming out of the closet, I suppose. It means you're not hiding your true nature. Being baptized against your will, like just after birth, does nothing for you. You have to choose it for it to have any meaning whatsoever. I wonder how Catholics can read the Bible and then ignore it in favor of some human's interpretation of it... not that only Catholics do that, obviously... better stop here before this becomes a rant.

reply to post by Thought Provoker

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Wait? What? Jesus saved us by dying but he saves us also through baptism?

Why was Jesus baptized then? Did he need to be saved? Did he need to be cleansed from sin? Why was his baptism an important symbol to us?

Jesus nor John the Baptist invented baptism. Baptism is a purification ritual that originated in the Pagan cult of Demeter hundreds of years before the advent of Jesus. It was advanced by the Pythagorean cults and adopted by the Essenes.

reply to post by Siberbat

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek. Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin in His role as priest.

Baptism in never ever mentioned in the Old Testament at all. It wasn't part of any initiation into any kind of Jewish priesthood. Where do you find the requirements for the order of Melchizedek?

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by schuyler

 

It's simply a religious ritual that has no real meaning outside the beliefs of its adherents.

BEing that I'm a Christian-Mystic Non-dualist ...let me chime in here.

Water Baptism represents ego death. The old egotistical ways are drowned under water, and a new Enlightened Ego free you emerges from the water. Also, in the NT everyone who goes through this is of an adult age capable of adult logic & Reason.

For me, Baptizm was THE NUMBER ONE reason I attribute to the beginning of my Mystical/Spiritual awakenings. It took about 2 weeks afterwards, and then the Holy Spirit indwelled me and killed off my ego, taking me back to child -like awareness and instilling in me Higher Transcendental Faculties, Divine Love, Non-judgmental acceptance of all beings, etc.

There also Baptizm rituals in Buddhism and many other "Paths."

Believe me, had I not received Spiritual Awakening shortly after water Baptizm, I too would have believed its a sham. But I concur, it's legit!!!!

edit on 6-7-2013 by dominicus because: (no reason given)

When the student is ready the teacher comes and the teachers knows what is the best way to reach that student. .

reply to post by windword

I don't know what to tell you. You either believe scripture, or you don't. You aren't arguing with me here, you're arguing with God and his words. Believers believe; all others don't. To the saved, all scripture makes perfect sense, because we have an advantage: the Holy Spirit's guidance. Without that, it's just fairy tales to you.

Let me ask; do you think Satan can see the future? It's said he has all the powers of God except the ability to grant eternal life, after all. So back in the days of, let's say, the Demeter cults, couldn't Satan have known that baptism would one day be used by Christians, and sort of pre-empted the practice by getting pagans to adopt it early on, so that people would be able to use the "Christians didn't invent it" argument once John the Baptist starting doing it? There's nothing easier to do than deceiving people. World leaders and the media do it constantly, and they can't see the future; how much of a challenge could it be for Satan to accomplish?

And Jesus was baptized for the same reason we are: to publicly acknowledge his commitment to God. If you are saved, then you will get baptized, you'll be drawn towards doing it. Don't confuse cause and effect.

reply to post by Thought Provoker

You aren't arguing with me here, you're arguing with God and his words.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but God didn't write 1Peter. Peter didn't even write it.

The authorship of 1 Peter has traditionally been attributed to the Apostle Peter because it bears his name and identifies him as its author (1:1). Although the text identifies Peter as its author the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter has led many scholars to conclude that this letter is pseudonymous. Many scholars are convinced that Peter was not the author of this letter because the author had to have a formal education in rhetoric/philosophy and an advanced knowledge of the Greek language.

Graham Stanton rejects Petrine authorship because 1 Peter was most likely written during the reign of Domitian in AD 81, which is when he believes widespread Christian persecution began, which is long after the death of Peter
en.wikipedia.org...

Let me ask; do you think Satan can see the future? It's said he has all the powers of God except the ability to grant eternal life, after all. So back in the days of, let's say, the Demeter cults, couldn't Satan have known that baptism would one day be used by Christians, and sort of pre-empted the practice by getting pagans to adopt it early on, so that people would be able to use the "Christians didn't invent it" argument once John the Baptist starting doing it? There's nothing easier to do than deceiving people. World leaders and the media do it constantly, and they can't see the future; how much of a challenge could it be for Satan to accomplish? en.wikipedia.org...

I don't believe in Satan the way you do. Your argument reminds me of when people say that Satan planted dinosaur bones to deceive mankind.

John the Baptist didn't "start" baptizing. Most likely he was an Essene practicing baptism the way the Essenes did, as a purity ritual, a practice that they borrowed from the Eleusinians and Athenians. The Greeks are also responsible for writing 1 Peter.

Christianity didn't develop alone in a bubble. It was highly influenced by pagan rituals and myths, baptism being one the Eucharist being another.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Siberbat

 

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek. Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin in His role as priest.

Baptism in never ever mentioned in the Old Testament at all. It wasn't part of any initiation into any kind of Jewish priesthood. Where do you find the requirements for the order of Melchizedek?

The following is the consecration of the Levitical Priest line. It speaks of washing the priests with water, anoiting with oil, having to be at least 30 years of age, and offering up the sacrifices to God. The Order of Melchizedek is said to have been a sort of divine priesthood in which only one priest could be worthy of the order. This person is mentioned in Psalms and more clearly defined in the Book of Hebrews. It is a complicated discussion and beyond the bounds of this forum. Jesus would have, however, received the consecration to perform His divine ministry on Earth, and indeed fullfil the requirements of the order for those who believed.

In Jewish terms, they still await the messiah, possibily two: one who rules the Earthly kingdom and one who is the divine high priest.

Consecration as a priest, He had to be:

Washed with water

Exodus 29:1,4, "This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect" ... 4 “Then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the doorway of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water."

Leviticus 8:6, "Then Moses had Aaron and his sons come near, and washed them with water."

Numbers 8:7, "And thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body, and wash their clothes, and they shall be clean."

Matthew 3:16, "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him."

Anointed with oil (represents the anointing of the Holy Spirit)

Exodus 29:7, "Then you shall take the anointing oil, and pour it on his head and anoint him."

Leviticus 8:12, "Now the Levites shall lay their hands on the heads of the bulls; then offer the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering to the Lord, to make atonement for the Levites."

Matt. 3:16, "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him."

1 John 2:20, 27, "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know...27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism.

Numbers 4:1-3, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 2 'Take a census of the descendants of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, by their families, by their fathers’ households, 3 from thirty years and upward, even to fifty years old, all who enter the service to do the work in the tent of meeting.'"

This was fulfilled in Luke 3:21-23

"Now it came about when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.” 23 And when He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli..."

Verbal Blessing was given.

Exodus 39:43, "And Moses examined all the work and behold, they had done it (regarding the tabernacle); just as the Lord had commanded, this they had done. So Moses blessed them."

Number 6:22-27, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 23 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘Thus you shall bless the sons of Israel. You shall say to them: 24 The Lord bless you, and keep you; 25 The Lord make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you; 26 The Lord lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.’ 27 “So they shall invoke My name on the sons of Israel, and I then will bless them.”

Matthew 3:17, "and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'”

Whew...that was a long.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Thought Provoker

 

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Wait? What? Jesus saved us by dying but he saves us also through baptism?

Why was Jesus baptized then? Did he need to be saved? Did he need to be cleansed from sin? Why was his baptism an important symbol to us?

Jesus nor John the Baptist invented baptism. Baptism is a purification ritual that originated in the Pagan cult of Demeter hundreds of years before the advent of Jesus. It was advanced by the Pythagorean cults and adopted by the Essenes.

edit on 7-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

As far as John the Baptist and the Essenes(Jewish Mystics) go, there are simularities, but nothing conclusive. The simularities are: both lived in the desert, both used Isaiah 40:3 to proclaim they are the "voice of the wilderness", both used baptism as a clensing (change of heart), but thats where the simularities end. Unlike the Essenes, John the Baptist did not hide from the people, he was very much a public person, his diet was much more restricted than that of the Essenes (honey and locus), and he proclaim Jesus as the Messiah (something the Essenes never did). So to say that John the Baptist was an Essene is a long stretch. The Essene cult started roughly around 100 BCE. Baptism (as I shown in my previous post) was around the time of the Exodus, some several hundred years earlier.

The cult of Demeter...wow here's another stretch. You want us to assume that a pious people such as the Jews would copy water clensing from a Greek cult. LOL! That would be a crime punishible by DEATH. That in and of itself is highly unlikely. Demeter a goddess of agriculture...lol. The Jews were instructed by God to kill the cults of the promised land, not to partake in their religious idolitry, in fact to destroy their temples. You think they would use a pegan ritual to consecrate Jewish priests. That's silly. Really really silly Windword.

reply to post by Siberbat


Are you telling me that Jesus was consecrated as a Levitical priest and in the order of Melchizedek? When was Jesus annointed with oil? When did he bring a young bull and 2 rams to the temple for sacrifice?

Is there any civilization that existed that didn't use water to clean themselves and their animals and things? The ritual of baptism was common in many ancient religions. The Hebrews were influenced by the Egyptian religions and Osirus mystery rituals.

New initiates into the Mysteries of Isis/Osiris began their initiation with a sprinkling of purifying waters brought from the Nile. The reason they did this was salvation.

Homer mentions the washing of hands before prayer, and the purification of an entire army with water [Iliad, 1.313].

In MITHRAISM - There were ceremonies where spiritual purification was believed to come from sprinkling (or like in other branches of Christianity drenching) of the person was baptized with bulls blood or rams blood. This purification meant the person was born again.

Link

Cleansed by the blood of Jesus, the sacrificial ram?

The Essenes were related to the Osirus cults through the Pythagoreans.

A state of purity is brought about by purifications, washings and lustrations, by a man's purifying himself from all deaths and rebirths, or any kind of pollution, by abstaining from all animals that have died, from mullets, from gurnards, from eggs, from such animals that lay eggs, from beans, and from other things that are prohibited by those who have charge of the mysteries in the Temples. - Life of Pythagoras by Diogenes Laertius
www.essene.com...

From Egypt, the cult of Isis gradually made its way to Rome. While Rome was at first repelled by the cult, the religion finally entered the city during the reign of Caligula (A.D. 37-41). Its influence spread gradually during the next two centuries, and in some locales it became a major rival of Christianity.
www.equip.org...

Unlike the Essenes, John the Baptist did not hide from the people

The Essenes did not hide from people.

They have no one certain city, but many of them dwell in every city; Josephus
ancienthistory.about.com...

The Essenes ate locust.

Lv. 11:20–23 distinguishes locusts as the only winged insects not to be treated as unclean. Their use as food is also noted in other ancient sources, notably among other wilderness dwellers at Qumran
seektheos.com...

John the Baptist was most likely raised by Essenes, after the death of his father Zacharias.

Josephus writes that although the Essenes did not utterly reject marriage, they would seek out "other persons' children, while they are pliable, and fit for learning, esteeming them to be of their kindred, and form them according to their own manners."[2] It seems more than likely that if John was brought up in an Essene environment then the same Isaiah verse that formed a large part of the Essene identity would shape the way that John (and his followers) conceived of his own mission.

Ritual purification was important to all Jewish groups, and Qumran was no exception, with several ritual pools (mikveh) being found there. still, the mere ritual of immersion was considered ineffective if the individual did not repent and accept upon himself God's commandments, as interpreted by the Yahad (the way the Essenes seemed to have referred to their community).
calba-savua.blogspot.com...

Both the Essenes and John the Baptist, however, succeeded in combining the prophetic and the priestly ideals in a holy life, ritually pure but characterized by repentance and the expectancy of the final judgment

The Essenes were connected to Pythagorean mystery cults as well as a the cults of Artemis:

Yet perhaps the greatest revelation of all is that Artemis and her high priests of Ephesus were called Essenes, meaning King Bees.
andrewgough.co.uk...

The Essenes were known for their healing honey and their ability as bee keepers.

John the Baptist was probably an Essenes and so was the biblical Jesus, IMO.