A Non-Religious Abortion Debate

I for one am against the pill

No one truly knows the long term side effects it has on the women's body and the possibility it will alter their and their eventual child's DNA.

Just look at the rise in allergies over the past thirty years and ADHD etc

reply to post by Bone75

I'd be forcing my morality if we were at a formal hearing... but we're not... we're on ATS

You want to force your morality. The only reason you dont is because you cant.

Opinions are pretty much the guts of this site, so of course you're entitled to one. I actually get a kick out of some of the stuff you guys come up with, which is why I come here. I'm sure the same is true for most of us.

Sure they are. But thats not what I am talking about. You said yourself, if you could, you would force it on everyone.

Originally posted by windword
Without the religious argument of how special humans are, how special a fertilized human egg is, it all boils down to biology and chemistry.

A fertilized egg isn't a thinking, fearing, hoping individual. It has no brain to hold these complex thoughts. It is self unaware. It has no voice, because it has no thoughts to voice. It's just a clump of cells doing what the DNA blueprint tells it to do.

God has revealed, denials do not matter, life, a new human person with a body AND a soul begins at conception.

This is why the Church teaches contraception is an intrinsic evil. The "pill" causes the newly conceived human person with a body and a soul from attaching to the womb~! God made sex for marriage and procreation. God decides life not us.

Check Psalm 51:7 if you are Protestant and have a KJV Bible.

In the original Bible (Latin Vulgate) and the English translation, the Douay-Rheims, it is Psalm 50:7.
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me. www.drbo.org...

reply to post by colbe

God has revealed, denials do not matter, life, a new human person with a body AND a soul begins at conception.

"God" has revealed no such thing. This is your opinion, and only an opinion.

This is why the Church teaches contraception is an intrinsic evil. The "pill" causes the newly conceived human person with a body and a soul from attaching to the womb~! God made sex for marriage and procreation. God decides life not us.

Then why did "God" make sex so much fun? Why are women still having sex after menopause?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe

 

God has revealed, denials do not matter, life, a new human person with a body AND a soul begins at conception.

"God" has revealed no such thing. This is your opinion, and only an opinion.

Science shows life begins at conception. Psalm 50 or 51 in the KJV reveala we are given a soul at conception. You failed to include it, no need to ask why. The teaching of the Church for 2000 years.

This is why the Church teaches contraception is an intrinsic evil. The "pill" causes the newly conceived human person with a body and a soul from attaching to the womb~! God made sex for marriage and procreation. God decides life not us.

Then why did "God" make sex so much fun? Why are women still having sex after menopause?

Your first question sounds like one a 16 year old adolescent would ask. Children are a blessing, God isn't going to make sex painful. An older married woman can still have sex, she had her children in the child bearing years. I came from a family of six siblings. Contraception and abortion are accepted as no sin at all! 50 + years, we have a demographic winter. America on average has 1.25 children.

reply to post by colbe






No but childbirth certainly is ...

After the pleasure comes the pain!

So by your reckoning women shouldn't have sex till after the menopause?

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by colbe

 

No but childbirth certainly is ...

After the pleasure comes the pain!

So by your reckoning women shouldn't have sex till after the menopause?

Sad, you only think of the pain instead of your brand new sweet child, God's child.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by colbe

 

No but childbirth certainly is ...

After the pleasure comes the pain!

So by your reckoning women shouldn't have sex till after the menopause?

Sad, you only think of the pain instead of your brand new sweet child, God's child.

One doesn't 'think' of the pain it's there it's on you and there's not a lot you can do

about it. Says a lot about women's spirit, stamina, and tenacity that they go on to bear the

'pain' time and time again


It's often been said if a man gave birth the population would plummet!!

reply to post by colbe




The title of this thread is "A Non Religious Abortion Debate" ??

So far you have quoted

* God ?

*The Church ?

* Check Psalms ?

* JJV Bible ?

* The soul ?

I understood this to be a non religious thread as in the title?

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by colbe

 

The title of this thread is

"A Non Religious Abortion Debate" ??

So far you have quoted

* God ?

*The Church ?

* Check Psalms ?

* JJV Bible ?

* The soul ?

I understood this to be a non religious thread as in the title?

Are you afraid, the reason for your objection? The OP is stating a matter of faith, a truth to be believed.
The 5th Commandment, thou shalt not kill.
Jesus wants you to become Roman Catholic ele and "soon."

reply to post by colbe




"Sorry" in advance if slightly off topic ...but it is a reply to a post directed to me


Afraid? Afraid of what precisely and in reply to your statement of my needing

to become a RC ... I THINK NOT !!


I spent two years at a catholic boarding convent between the ages of seven and nine years

of age (out of educational necessity) Those 'nuns' are something else when it comes to

discipline but then they get to go to 'confession' their sins get forgiven, and then they

start all over again.


My best friend was a RC and one of the nicest people I have ever known, she had her beliefs

but never ever pushed them at others.


Then I went on to marry a RC agreeing only to do so as long as any children were not brought

up as Catholic's. The hypocrisy of the 'catholic of convenience' ... He used contraception,

procured abortions ...... (you will be aware they were illegal once) ...I ended up in hospital

needing a blood transfusion.


My first child who died at two and a half years of age was born with a heart defect (today she

would have had a heart transplant) I have to say it again "Ain't science marvellous"

My then Mother in law said 'that all my misfortune was due to my not having my child baptised

a catholic ... my answer to that is 'any God that could punish an innocent child for my

sins is not worth honouring'


So you see I am not unfamiliar with RC dogma. It needs to get its own house in order and

not pressurise for converts,

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by colbe

 

"Sorry" in advance if slightly off topic ...but it is a reply to a post directed to me

Afraid? Afraid of what precisely

and in reply to your statement of my needing

to become a RC ... I THINK NOT !!


I spent two years at a catholic boarding convent between the ages of seven and nine years

of age (out of educational necessity) Those 'nuns' are something else when it comes to

discipline

but then they get to go to 'confession' their sins get forgiven, and then they

start all over again.


My best friend was a RC and one of the nicest people I have ever known, she had her beliefs

but never ever pushed them at others.


Then I went on to marry a RC agreeing only to do so as long as any children were not brought

up as Catholic's. The hypocrisy of the 'catholic of convenience' ... He used contraception,

procured abortions ...... (you will be aware they were illegal once) ...I ended up in hospital

needing a blood transfusion.


My first child who died at two and a half years of age was born with a heart defect (today she

would have had a heart transplant) I have to say it again "Ain't science marvellous"

My then Mother in law said 'that all my misfortune was due to my not having my child baptised

a catholic ... my answer to that is

'any God that could punish an innocent child for my

sins is not worth honouring'


So you see I am not unfamiliar with RC dogma. It needs to get its own house in order and

not pressurise for converts,

You aren't Roman Catholic and if you are going to hold a prejudice since childhood because of strict sisters, try forgiving them and next, study the faith instead of rejecting it.

Mixed marriages are tough, there is an OT verse that wisely says don't do it. Look at the problems, you
don't know the faith and go into the marriage with negative feelings and misunderstandings. How is that
beneficial to the children of a mixed marriage? It is not.

Your mother-in-law's comment was awful, that is on her not you.

I was speaking about the faith not pressuring you. You are the one who posted negative comments on the faith, adding smirks.

You will never believe this, well, right now anyway but very "soon" says Heaven in prophecy, God is going show the entire world the true faith and all your questions and misunderstandings about Catholicism are going to be answered. Jesus wants you to become Catholic. The Remnant is Roman Catholic. My opinion ele, I think you are going to say "yes" to God.

Catholicism holds contraception and abortion are grave mortal sin, very unpopular teaching in a time when it is no sin at all to many people. God doesn't change, the Church can't change, it is the Truth.

The underlined, your husband, ex-husband "procured" an abortion for you? If you mean you, you had no say?
Why did you not fight him, say no, stand your ground, this was your child too?


love,

colbe

Important to share. I pray, Oh Lord send down Your grace on everyone here at ATS. I'll say it...

We're all alive, our parents said yes to the children God gave them. God created us to be with Him one day in Heaven. He gave us the Commandments for our benefit, they are all good. One of them is thou shalt not kill.

If anyone has had an abortion or you have been involved in procuring an abortion, from the heart repent and confess this sin to God. How hard is that to do? Pray, say, I am so sorry God for breaking your Commandment of thou shalt not kill. God's mercy is His greatest attribute. Speak to Him.

Do it now and if you are Catholic, go to Confession, don't wait, no one knows their last day.

Who can say for sure about our particular judgment, would I, will I wish to repent at that final moment?


colbe,

p.s. OP, make it illegal, keep this a non-religious discussion but eternity is long, long, time. Abortion is a grave sin, mortal to the soul unless confessed.

Thank you for your thread.

reply to post by colbe






This is not a forum for you to preach to me READ THE TITLE you are TOTALLY

off topic



I have not discussed any personal beliefs in my post's merely pointed out the flaws

of others who pertain to be a better persons than me, or as I would normally put it

'Catholic's of convenience' or 'hypocrites'


I think the following should be somewhere near the top of your belief? wouldn't you say "Let

he that is without sin cast the first stone"


Get back on topic ... I personally will be ignoring any further posts from you!!

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by colbe

 

This is not a forum for you to preach to me READ THE TITLE you are TOTALLY

off topic



I have not discussed any personal beliefs in my post's merely pointed out the flaws

of others who pertain to be a better persons than me, or as I would normally put it

'Catholic's of convenience' or 'hypocrites'


I think the following should be somewhere near the top of your belief? wouldn't you say "Let

he that is without sin cast the first stone"


Get back on topic ... I personally will be ignoring any further posts from you!!

All you can say is "off topic" now. ???

I am sad at your continued personal insults and your mocking Catholicism. YOU shared some, I don't think all, your intimate life story, your choice! I replied to it and thought in a decent way considering your slams.

You imply and then back away, didn't answer my sincere question, did you have an abortion? Maybe you didn't! Don't write such "bloody" personal comments about your husband and yourself.

In my post to follow I shared with EVERYONE what a person must do to get right with God, to find Him, to save their soul in regards to abortion. Abortion is grave, God only asks that people repent and confess their sin to Him.

I have my own sins, me too, everyone is a sinner, no one can cast stones.

God truly wants us all to believe the same. One day soon, we will all see, He begs us to love Him.

reply to post by colbe


Your posts are completely inappropriate and ARE off topic in thread called "A Non-Religious Abortion Debate". But, you've proved that it's impossible to have a discussion about abortion that isn't religious. Anti-choice is a religious position.

Even the church, historically, hasn't been able to agree on these issues.

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) reversed centuries of Christian teaching in Western Europe, by returning to the Aristotelian Pagan concept of "delayed ensoulment."

He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated). He wrote extensively on sexual matters, teaching that the original sin of Adam and Eve are passed to each successive generation through the pleasure generated during sexual intercourse. This passed into the church's canon law. Only abortion of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" (animated fetus) was punished as murder.

St. Jerome (circa 340 - 420) wrote in a letter to Aglasia:
"The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs" 8

Pope Innocent III (circa 1161-1216):
He wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."

Early in the 13th century he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder.

Pope Sixtus V (1471-1484) issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.

Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591) revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he determined happened 116 days (about 17 weeks) into pregnancy.

www.religioustolerance.org...

This is a tough topic. I believe in a women's right to choose, but I also believe there should be active fighting against birth control that have permanent affects to the womens (or mens?) reproductive system. It depends on where you see life beginning. Many see it as when the egg is fertilized, while others see it as the first breath the child takes. It's difficult to say. When does the 'soul' integrate itself with the body? I think once that can be answered we can have a much clearer discussion, until then I think we're going to have a real problem with the morality of this topic.

reply to post by colbe


Windword and eletheia are absolutely correct on this one. I asked that we keep our religious beliefs to ourselves in this discussion, so your comments are completely off topic. Religion has nothing to do with when a person's life begins, that is a question for science that can be observed and predicted and the science says it begins at fertilization. No religion required.

Originally posted by windword

Anti-choice is a religious position.

Says the child of a hardcore Baptist family that forced her sister to have an abortion
Go figure.

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by windword

Anti-choice is a religious position.

Says the child of a hardcore Baptist family that forced her sister to have an abortion

Go figure.

What is it about "anti-choice" that you don't understand?